Over Powered healing killing PvP

[halueryphi]

You know its OP when the healer can heal themselves AND kill you.

[darthtejas]

It's no secret that healing in this game is overpowered. The only people arguing that it isn't are the ones that are taking advantage of it's lack of balance. I would ask these people to not be short sighted and think about the good of the game first.

 

The vast majority of people that PvP, do so to mess someone up. It's been the foundation of PvP in MMOs since PvPs conception. Now when healing imbalance turns the PvP experience into an exercise in frustration like we're starting to see, people quit and find something else to do. While it may be fun to take advantage of healing imbalance and spam LOL at these people while blocking their ability to achieve. It's not going to help with long term retention.

 

We're already getting the same syndrome that Rift saw with it's overpowered healing. ie. stack healers and spam which leads to:

 

Boring PVP is Boring!

 

Leads to:

 

see ya!

 

Additionally, it's bad enough the combat mechanics in this game are so slow and clunky. Why would you want to add the slow boring grind that comes with overpowered healing into the mix? You're just exasperating an unpleasantness in the game.

 

^100% Agree!

[Keyran-Halcyon]

The only way I see this as any issue is when you have several healers on one team, like over half the team. Healing itself isn't overpowered, its the balance issue. And I am guessing you are an empire player since it seems they have less healers than Republic. The only other issue is hybrid specs that allow for players to still be great healers and also effective dps as well. So that creates another problem. Healing itself isn't an issue, its those two issues.

 

Here is what will happen if you nerf healing.

 

1) Plenty of Healers will get irritated and re-spec dps, and then it will be a rarity to see healers.

 

2) DPS players will then QQ about dying so fast because they don't have healers anymore.

 

Either way, nerfing healing won't accomplish anything.

 

Also, why does it seem like 99% of all QQ threads are created by DPS players? Wanting either other classes nerfed, healing nerfed, or the tanks nerfed. I rarely see a healer or Tank calling for DPS to be nerfed.

[GaryCartel]

Any tips for beating teams with 3-4 good healers?

[farfulnugen]

I don't understand, you play a team with multiple healers and say healers in general are OP? That makes no sense.

 

If you make a team full of 1 class....any class....they will rip anything apart. Does this mean that class is OP?

 

I have almost full BM gear - when I'm against another person in full BM gear, they actually scale much better than I do. I've played several dps classes that I simply can't outheal. With their stuns, silences, and damage vs. my long casts and lack of ability to move and heal at same time, I rarely ever win.

 

I think you need to play a level 50 Seer in BM gear and play dps in same gear and see what I mean. You have no clue.

[ShadowOfVey]

I think the problem with pvp healing is much more due to design flaws in civil war and especially voidstar.

 

I don't think individual healers themselves are too good.

 

It's the design flaw that you have to not only kill off the enemy presence in the area, but do so within a relatively brief time period. Obviously the more healers the enemy has, the longer it's going to take to kill them off. That's just a natural fact of healing, healing prolongs lives.

 

It's also true that teams with a lot of healers don't have as much dps, leading to them having difficulty claiming nodes as well (less damage means people don't die as fast, ones that live can hold off enemy until respawns arrive).

 

Thus we come to the present state of voidstar: 0-0 ties when both teams are paying attention and healers are around. Clear design flaw, magnified by the fact that the two doors are so close together.

 

This happens in civil war as well. How many times have you played a game of civil war where the outcome was decided by who claimed 2 turrets first? There's that initial brawl in the beginning over a contested turret, eventually one team manages to cap it...and then the game is often decided right there. There are ways to fight against this with extremely coordinated CC but it will be beyond the capabilities of a pug group, even a pug group with 8 good players. In general, if your team is alert, once you have 2 turrets and your team has a few healers, there's no real reason to lose one anytime soon.

 

Civil war is a poorly designed arathi basin. Arathi basin worked since it had 5 nodes instead of 3. It wasn't as easy to reinforce positions and attacks were more likely to occur at several positions at once making coordinating properly more of a challenge. They copied the idea of arathi basin without completing what made it work.

 

Less positions to defend in civil war (in this case 2 of 3 vs the usual 3 of 5 from arathi) makes coordinating defense that much easier just based on reaction rather than team communication. If you have mid + left or right, it isn't a long trip at all from one to the other. Combine the short trip between the only 2 places you need to be with heals prolonging the fight more than long enough for even the slowest reinforcements to arrive, you come up with what we have now.

[bewl]

I honestly can not believe the amount of ignorance in this thread. This community, is by far the worst and most entitled MMO community I have ever had the mispleasure to be a part of, and that is saying a lot.

 

If you have 2+ people on a healer, and he is allowed to heal himself and the rest of his group then it is most certainly you that is the problem. If 2+ people can not rotate interrupts/CC and DPS well enough to kill a healer, then the only thing that needs to be looked at is your ability to play your class.

 

I will admit, I am hard to kill in a warzone especially 1v1, but i have been destroyed plenty of times by 1 person, let alone 2. A well placed interrupt and a well placed CC with some decent DPS will almost certainly be any healer's demise. What good am i doing for my team by healing myself, knowing that I have no chance to even come close to killing you.

 

Lets also mention the fact that you now have this healer focusing himself because you have finally decided to focus your DPS on him. What is the rest of your team doing? I certainly hope they are taking advantage of the fact that the other team is down a healer.

 

Every single one of your complaints has NOTHING to do with healers being OP, but everything to do with your inability to play as a team (which is what the core of warzones are). You can not balance around this. It is not a game element, it is a player element.

[Faat]

If anything, healers are so easy to shutdown in this game.

 

Asking to nerf them lol, might as well remove them.

 

In end game PvP, good players identify healers right away, and shut them down or kill them with focus fire. I specifically play my tank to shut down casters, interrupting them, putting them in hazardous positions (thankfully I play the right class to do this job, a vanguard).

 

Also, if you have just 1 tank or DPS hitting a healer, you force him to focus heal himself instead of his party. In case there is 3 + healers, a good team on vent can focus them 1 by 1. honestly, a good team on vent doesn't need more than 1 healer. 1 healer + 1 tank + 2 DPS, with the tank + 2 DPS assisting targets 1 by 1.

 

just L2P damnit. This game isn't balanced for PuGs.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Faat

[LancelotOC]

Any tips for beating teams with 3-4 good healers?

 

All DPS hit the same target. People have anywhere between 14-18 thousands hitpoints. Most good healer spells heal about 1500 per second. Most good DPS hit for about 1300 per second.

 

If at least 5 hit the same target you are doing 6500 damage per second. If all 4 healers heal this 5th guy they will be healing for 6000 per second. Eventually you win.

 

Now whenever one of these healers is not in range to heal or healing the wrong person you kill them much faster.

 

Basically the answer to people Asssising is to Assist as well.

Edited March 16, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Surgin]

All DPS hit the same target. People have anywhere between 14-18 thousands hitpoints. Most good healer spells heal about 1500 per second. Most good DPS hit for about 1300 per second.

 

If at least 5 hit the same target you are doing 6500 damage per second. If all 4 healers heal this 5th guy they will be healing for 6000 per second. Eventually you win.

 

Now whenever one of these healers is not in range to heal or healing the wrong person you kill them much faster.

 

So to beat a team with 4 healers you need 5 dps? What if you both had 4 healers then what?

Edited March 16, 2012 by Surgin

[ModifiedKitty]

They should add a debuff that automatically applies when you enter combat that reduces your healing by some percentage. Make it the same as the amount of bonus healing a player gets to out dps NPC mobs so that the only difference between a DPS and a Healer is who is better. Lets say 30%?

 

Oh wait, they did that and you're still crying. You literally don't know how easy you have it.

 

Healing is getting BUFFED, because it's underpowered. If you don't know that it's because you're a noob and no other reason.

 

You lose games versus healers because your team has none, because you aren't one. You don't want to go play games where its 3 healers vs none? Then ROLL one.

 

If you can't kill a healer it's not because they're overpowered. It's because you're bad and you don't know how they work. Stop prentending like it's something else. You have all the tools, and the required nerf to healing in pvp. Stop making excuses. You're losing because you're bad.

[BrutalPain]

My main is a dps/tank I just dinged to 50with my healer 2weeks ago and I laugh so much in warzones. Dpsers are just so stupid. I laugh so hard when i stan in the corner spam healing a dude who fight with an enemy, and the enemy just keep attacking him. I can imagine what is in his head "cmon why is the guy's HP going up, no matters if i keep attack him hard enough he should die".

I play on my healer mostly as its so much fun to laugh on the stupid dpsers all day long. There was a voidstar game yesterday when noone touched me the vhole game while i was spamhealing my team from the corner lol.

[LancelotOC]

So to beat a team with 5 healers you need 5 dps? What if you both had 5 healers then what?

 

If a team has too many healers they cant kill anyone. To exploit this weakness you kill their DPS first to further enhance their DPS weakness. Again you assist to combat assiting.

 

DAOC had very strong healers. The best teams were the ones that could read their opposition and decide to either kill healers or enemy DPS first. The fighting got so advanced that people would try to figure out who lead assist was and kill that DPS first on top of it, just to break a team's harmony.

[ShadowOfVey]

My main is a dps/tank I just dinged to 50with my healer 2weeks ago and I laugh so much in warzones. Dpsers are just so stupid. I laugh so hard when i stan in the corner spam healing a dude who fight with an enemy, and the enemy just keep attacking him. I can imagine what is in his head "cmon why is the guy's HP going up, no matters if i keep attack him hard enough he should die".

I play on my healer mostly as its so much fun to laugh on the stupid dpsers all day long. There was a voidstar game yesterday when noone touched me the vhole game while i was spamhealing my team from the corner lol.

 

I mess around on an operative healer alt sometimes and I do agree players do a lot of dumb things when healers are present. Sometimes I'll have a few beating on me while I just freecast heals on myself, no interrupts from anyone like they didn't even keybind it.

[Astarica]

Even a merc, who has no interrupts of any kind, can neutralize a healer by just attacking him. No you can't interrupt his heals but he'll have to heal himself to keep up with the DPS you do. For any classes with interrupt mechanism, it's quite easy to stay ahead of the healer's HPS. This doesn't mean you'll beat them right away. It might take a while to go through all their instant heals but you should come out ahead eventually.

 

Now if you're talking about objective based stuff like nodes or Voidstar doors, it should be obvious that defending those objectives are generally in favor of the defender. Even with no healing whatsoever, the defender has an advantage since as long as one of them is alive, you probably can't take the objective. But heal heavy teams are far from unstoppable, and even if they lose a Voidstar door, it doesn't guaranteed a victory if they can't take a door either. In Alderaan, neutral nodes don't magically become capped, so you still got to be able to kill people to capture it the first time.

[BrutalPain]

I think the problem with pvp healing is much more due to design flaws in civil war and especially voidstar.

 

I don't think individual healers themselves are too good.

 

It's the design flaw that you have to not only kill off the enemy presence in the area, but do so within a relatively brief time period. Obviously the more healers the enemy has, the longer it's going to take to kill them off. That's just a natural fact of healing, healing prolongs lives.

 

It's also true that teams with a lot of healers don't have as much dps, leading to them having difficulty claiming nodes as well (less damage means people don't die as fast, ones that live can hold off enemy until respawns arrive).

 

Thus we come to the present state of voidstar: 0-0 ties when both teams are paying attention and healers are around. Clear design flaw, magnified by the fact that the two doors are so close together.

 

This happens in civil war as well. How many times have you played a game of civil war where the outcome was decided by who claimed 2 turrets first? There's that initial brawl in the beginning over a contested turret, eventually one team manages to cap it...and then the game is often decided right there. There are ways to fight against this with extremely coordinated CC but it will be beyond the capabilities of a pug group, even a pug group with 8 good players. In general, if your team is alert, once you have 2 turrets and your team has a few healers, there's no real reason to lose one anytime soon.

 

Civil war is a poorly designed arathi basin. Arathi basin worked since it had 5 nodes instead of 3. It wasn't as easy to reinforce positions and attacks were more likely to occur at several positions at once making coordinating properly more of a challenge. They copied the idea of arathi basin without completing what made it work.

 

Less positions to defend in civil war (in this case 2 of 3 vs the usual 3 of 5 from arathi) makes coordinating defense that much easier just based on reaction rather than team communication. If you have mid + left or right, it isn't a long trip at all from one to the other. Combine the short trip between the only 2 places you need to be with heals prolonging the fight more than long enough for even the slowest reinforcements to arrive, you come up with what we have now.

 

I aggre with you on that in civil war and voidstar the objectives are too close to eachother especially in voidstar, cause in civil war you can win games with tactics. In voidstar you cant do much tactic, you need to have defenders at both door, or as an attacker zerg 1door and make some surprise attack on the other. Maybe we just didnt find out other tactics yet but i cant imagine anything else what could work.

But this is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Edited March 16, 2012 by BrutalPain

[Jederix]

Yes cause PVP is 2 guys vs 1 healer, with no extranal factors such as CC, friedndlies or other healers.

 

Yeah, you are absolutely right. It is a travesty that you can't just tunnel vision down a healer as a single DPS.

[Tallyhoe]

Cause the 30% debuff to healing isnt enough... learn to run with a marauder giving the extra 50% debuff. Interupt and focus a healer. good game.

[bewl]

I think the problem with pvp healing is much more due to design flaws in civil war and especially voidstar.

 

I don't think individual healers themselves are too good.

 

It's the design flaw that you have to not only kill off the enemy presence in the area, but do so within a relatively brief time period. Obviously the more healers the enemy has, the longer it's going to take to kill them off. That's just a natural fact of healing, healing prolongs lives.

 

It's also true that teams with a lot of healers don't have as much dps, leading to them having difficulty claiming nodes as well (less damage means people don't die as fast, ones that live can hold off enemy until respawns arrive).

 

Thus we come to the present state of voidstar: 0-0 ties when both teams are paying attention and healers are around. Clear design flaw, magnified by the fact that the two doors are so close together.

 

This happens in civil war as well. How many times have you played a game of civil war where the outcome was decided by who claimed 2 turrets first? There's that initial brawl in the beginning over a contested turret, eventually one team manages to cap it...and then the game is often decided right there. There are ways to fight against this with extremely coordinated CC but it will be beyond the capabilities of a pug group, even a pug group with 8 good players. In general, if your team is alert, once you have 2 turrets and your team has a few healers, there's no real reason to lose one anytime soon.

 

Civil war is a poorly designed arathi basin. Arathi basin worked since it had 5 nodes instead of 3. It wasn't as easy to reinforce positions and attacks were more likely to occur at several positions at once making coordinating properly more of a challenge. They copied the idea of arathi basin without completing what made it work.

 

Less positions to defend in civil war (in this case 2 of 3 vs the usual 3 of 5 from arathi) makes coordinating defense that much easier just based on reaction rather than team communication. If you have mid + left or right, it isn't a long trip at all from one to the other. Combine the short trip between the only 2 places you need to be with heals prolonging the fight more than long enough for even the slowest reinforcements to arrive, you come up with what we have now.

 

I definitely agree with this, even though it is a tad bit off topic, and probably deserves its own thread.

[TeH-DeVa]

The greatest strength you will have in PvP is not your gear, your valor, your win/loss ratio, or your uber haxxs.

 

It's knowing every other class like the back of your hand. If you know the class and every ability it has then you can counter it in everyway. It was like this in SWG and it's like this in TOR.

 

I play a merc healer and am considered by most to be one of the if not the best PvP healer on my server. In PvP and duels no1 has been able to kill me 1vs1. However on my smuggler alt I easily take down troopers and merc healers without breaking a sweat. Why? Because I know what makes them tick. It's my goal ATM to know them all.

 

People say killing a merc is really hard. It is if you don't know anything about them that's true. I won't give any specific names just because I don't want people on my server to smarten up. However I will say this.

 

Two people each with a single interupt can keep a merc from being able to do anything just by making sure to interupt one specific ability while dpsing them.

 

Just one ability.

 

That's all. The funny thing is that no1 ever does. That's why I never die xD

 

Have fun being bad.

[TeH-DeVa]

Oh also you most likely forgot that most of the PvP in this game is warzones not duels. Which means it's 8vs8. You don't have a single DPS go for the healer. You don't have two go for the healer. Not even three. You have EVERY DPS go for the healer. Or you lose.

 

Learn the game

 

Get a PvP guild.

 

Stop PuGing.

 

Coordinate.

 

???

 

Profit.

[FINALBOSS]

Cause the 30% debuff to healing isnt enough... learn to run with a marauder giving the extra 50% debuff. Interupt and focus a healer. good game.

 

Once again...it's 20% and HARDLY noticeable.

[bewl]

Once again...it's 20% and HARDLY noticeable.

 

Roll a healer to 50, play some PVP and then come back and tell us it still isnt noticeable.

 

You are extremely ignorant.

[Demarcc]

Healing is not OP.

 

I can see, and agree with, peoples issues with games that involve 4 or 5 healers on one side. Trust me healers hate those games too, but thats NOT a healing issue. Thats an issue with the match making system Bioware are using.

 

People ***** alot about not being able to lock down healers, mostly because they have an interrupt on a 6-12s CD and feel thats not enough. They fail to look at thier other skills. As a sawbones healer when I am trying to shut down another healer I use everything I have, Interrupt (12sCD) kick (45sCD) and Flash Bang (60sCD) ... So I'll use interrupt / stuns / mezzs the works to lock them down as best I can. I dont just hit my interrupt and when they start to cast again 5s later stand around confused.

 

Every class has multiple abilitys that will interrupt a cast spell, just because it is'ent called *Inetrrupt* does not mean it does not function in that way. Sure your CC abilitys wont lock down that spell, but it will stop the cast.

 

People saying that a good DPS cant kill a healer .. meh. There are good DPS on my server that kill me 1v1 all the time. Do they kill me in 10s? No. It involveds both of us running around and using CD's trying to counter the other. My aim as a healer is to get assistance asap .. I dont want to stand toe-toe with a good DPS. The bad DPS I can ignore, they wont stop my casts, they wont use CC's, Interrupts, knockbacks, chokes, Stuns .. hell theres SOOO many ways to stop a healers cast in this game and they use NONE of them.

 

Bad DPS I can kite, stop and cast, re-kite somemore for awhile .. not because I am OP or uber skilled .. but because they are terribad.

 

Guard + Taunt is an issue that I freely admit to as a Healer, I think its OP. I think its OP when tanks cross guard to carry the huttball. I think its OP when tanks guard high burst DPS to make them god-mode. (Guard on a good sent/marauder is very nasty) I think its OP when they guard healers. None of this is a healer issue though ... that hate should be directed at the tanks. Nerfing healers b/c of a mechanic another class gets is kinda silly.

 

 

tl:dr ; 4 healer games are stupid and we healers hate them too, healers are not OP unless they are facing down stupid DPS. Guard / Taunt needs looking at.

[afootdoc]

signed.

 

If a good healer can outheal a bad dps and throwing heals into his group then nothing is wrong.

 

fixed that for you

 

ps: qq more, because then bw WILL nerf healers, and then NO ONE will heal in wzs. Enjoy!

Edited March 16, 2012 by afootdoc