Over Powered healing killing PvP

[Brittaany_Banks]

I honestly can not wait until there are almost no healers in warzones after 1.2 because of how much more squishy we have become, and how much more super interruptable our heals now are. THEN you will be whining about how there is TOO much damage in warzones.

 

Bunch of whiny, crying, children in this game.

[JediDuckling]

I honestly can not wait until there are almost no healers in warzones after 1.2 because of how much more squishy we have become, and how much more super interruptable our heals now are. THEN you will be whining about how there is TOO much damage in warzones.

 

Bunch of whiny, crying, children in this game.

 

i can understand people crying about things that are actual problems but things like this were healing is not the problem is the reason thisg ame is going to fail or flop :/

[Ruuprect]

What a useless thread, 2 dps class can take down a healer very fast and if hes healing himself then he cant heal the team, if team is protecting the healer then nerf every classes and buff your dmg so you can easily kill them!!!!111

 

And update 1.2 will nerf healers anyways, they will actually run out of force or ammo or whatever.

 

This is too complicated for dps players to understand. Most people I run into are bad and cant kill me, a good maurauder kills me in seconds and most other good players can kill me or completely take me out of the fight as all I am doing is healing myself.

 

In my heal spec I can kill healers or at the very least harass them enough that they do no healing. If a dps cant do this they are terrible and come cry on the forums.

 

I'm sorry but healing is anything but OP, and it is getting a nerf anyway, so OP you probably wont see too many healers in PvP after 1.2 especially sages/sorc. Now they will all be dps and you can come to the forums and cry that a dps killed you because you got no healing.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ruuprect

[Deridia]

signed.

 

If a healer can outheal a good dps and throwing heals into his group then something is wrong.

 

stop being noob. that's actually the EXACT model of a good MMO. You want to kill a healer? Assist. DAOC had it right. Stop catering to noobs.

 

I play a DPS and I find it appalling that I kill healers 1v1 with no trouble.

[TheronFett]

The only time I feel healers are imbalanced,is when there is three or more of them on one side,and even then only if your side has only one healer at most resulting in imbalanced teams.In other words,healing is fine.

 

This ^

 

Healers as their individual class spec, are not overpowered at all. 3+ healers on the same team in a warzone is overpowered. There should be a 2 healer per team limit in warzones.

 

The biggest problem of all is with most players. SWTOR is objective based PvP, and 90% of the players out there think this is Team Deathmatch where the most kills wins. It's especially obvious in the under 50 bracket. Respawn timers are way too short to make kills a viable way of reaching objectives.

 

This comes full circle when it comes to healers in objective based PvP and why healing is such a big issue. Healers can't kill effectively. What they can do is: score points in Huttball via CC and speed burst and keep teammates alive while they camp nodes in Voidstar and Civil War. Let's be honest here, kids. What's the #1 thing said in ops chat as the team makes out their strategy?

 

Call out, mark, and burst down the healers.

 

And while we're being honest, we all know that unless the above is achieved, your odds of winning just took a nose dive into the "slim to none" category. The highest DPS on the other team, while always a threat, takes a back seat to the healers. Why? Because that player's DPS is negated via heals.

 

Players want kills in PvP. It's the very foundation of combat. SWTOR has clunky and slow PvP mechanics anyway, and when combined with all the CC (add in broken resolve) and what seems like unlimited healing at times, it makes PvP boring and stale. There are 3 ways to fix this:

 

1. Limit the # of healers who can enter a warzone queue.

2. Increase respawn timers.

3. A more meaningful healing debuff.

Edited March 29, 2012 by TheronFett

[HoosierDuke]

yeah man, every fight should just be 8 dps running into the fray over and over. really fun and exciting gameplay there.

 

But this is exactly what the clueless crowd wants...

 

Healing in this game is less over the top than any other mmo i've ever played (admittedly, only been playing mmo's 10 or so years).

[HoosierDuke]

i can't say you're lying from my experiences in random pugs. my 41 commando healer

 

STOP

 

LOL a 40+ is GOD in the 10-49 bracket, regardless of class, or spec.

Edited March 29, 2012 by HoosierDuke

[teambff]

STOP

 

LOL a 40+ is GOD in the 10-49 bracket, regardless of class, or spec.

 

10-49 bracket is a big part of the game for some people, i'm in the process of levelling 7 characters and i'll be in the 10-49 pvp for quite some time. i haven't even begun half of the characters yet.

 

so... my time will be spent in that area for a long, long while to come.

if it doesn't effect you and you just care about level 50 pvp and that's the only thing that matters and so forth and so on that's fine for you but i clearly stated and outlined the scenario i was referring to and what exactly i was referring to.

 

i don't agree with your analysis that any player at level 40+ is a god, hasn't been the case in my experiences. i've only seen healers make THAT big of an impact. sure, most level 40s are able to do well but they aren't usually an unstoppable force like a healer usually is and/or provides for others.

Edited March 29, 2012 by teambff

[HazardOOI]

I play a 50 commando combat medic r58.

 

The reason ~3 healers on one team seems OP but 3 dps on the other team doesn't is because we have built in coordination. We can see who needs to be healed with one glance at the bars and who's being attacked while dpsers only guess who needs killing the most. Sometimes you'll go for the half dead guy but he may not even be the best target (he maybe a tank or have a healer).

 

Another disparity for the dps to healing ratios is mitigation. It applies for dps but healing goes rght through it. So how about making heals obey the same mitigation rules? Then a tank dies slowly and gets healed slowly. A squishy guy dies fast but can be healed up to full just as fast.

Edited March 29, 2012 by HazardOOI

[Orangerascal]

i don't agree with your analysis that any player at level 40+ is a god,

 

He's pretty correct. Level 40's are gods due to the accessibility of the level 40 pvp gear. the way bolstering works, and the the fact you get your 31 pt ability.

 

It's ironic that as you progress from lvl 41-49, you actually become worse and worse.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Orangerascal

[kuey]

I play a 50 commando combat medic r58.

 

The reason ~3 healers on one team seems OP but 3 dps on the other team doesn't is because we have built in coordination. We can see who needs to be healed with one glance at the bars and who's being attacked while dpsers only guess who needs killing the most. Sometimes you'll go for the half dead guy but he may not even be the best target (he maybe a tank or have a healer).

 

Another disparity for the dps to healing ratios is mitigation. It applies for dps but healing goes rght through it. So how about making heals obey the same mitigation rules? Then a tank dies slowly and gets healed slowly. A squishy guy dies fast but can be healed up to full just as fast.

 

 

Wouldn't that kinda of debuff to a tank mitigate their increased survivability to the point where a full tank spec is pretty much close to useless since it does considerably less damage than a dps build running tank stance for guarding?

[LosMartonos]

l2interrupt

[the_coaltrain]

What about decreasing the ammount healed each time? Sort of like resolve, but the more a player is healed the less each heal heals him for. The heal resolve would be reset after a certain ammount of time of no healing.

 

I really like this idea. Say a buff that creates strain to the body and combat must be left in order to shake the debuff. That is really a good idea. That would even take into account having a team full of healers on ball carriers and such. This way dps can't just expect to nuke down a good healer and healers can't expect to win a fight by dotting and out healing the dps damage at the same time. Of course this would be a PVP only solution. I would not suggest this for PVE unless boss mechanics are changed or built around more than 1 tank and/or kiting for most fights.

 

 

Call the debuff exhaustion or something and it's on the target not on the healer casting. This prevents spamming of heals on one target but does not make the healer themselves useless.

 

I hate to pick on healers like that but I do think it is a good solution. Could also look at doing something about tanks dealing dmg in PVP, finding a way to reduce the effectiveness of their tanking over time until combat is dropped. No major drop off included in the debuff just increase dmg taken by a % or reduce incoming heals by a %.

 

I would have the debuff stack based off player target's total HP. Once his/her HP has been healed up to a point that is equal to their full health (not including over healing) then have the debuff start stacking until heals = 0. Then of course this would need to be tested to see how quickly the debuff stacks and to what degree.

Edited March 29, 2012 by the_coaltrain

[Nezyrworks]

l2interrupt

 

That!

 

And whats more important, actualy attack the healer instead of chasing tank all the time. I had seen sooooo many unexperienced players chasing chicken over the square (read chasing tank) while he was healed by a weak healer.

 

Use your talents to lower cooldown on interupt ability. Use those damn stuns/cc's ( i know i can put a healer on constant cc spam as a tactic vanguard and block his healing powers while both instant cast dps spamming and doting at the same time.

 

It's sometimes hard, but if you all play jedi sentinels and just run+swing your lightbulb zaber on a tank u just fail...

 

And if you do so as a vanguard you are even worse...

[Faeldawn]

STOP

 

LOL a 40+ is GOD in the 10-49 bracket, regardless of class, or spec.

 

Not really, while they do have access to more abilities the bolster system works amazingly with low level well geared players. Sure 40+ should be better, but often they are not and it's all down to gear.

 

Twink up a level 11 DPS and watch them destroy ungeared lvl 40+ players. This is why often players will find they did more damage as a teen level than they do in their 30-40's, it's all down to kit.

 

The only way to have a measurable advantage at 40+ is to use the access to expertise gear and relics and ofc the extra abilities and spec advantages.

[MartyrLXXVII]

That!

 

And whats more important, actualy attack the healer instead of chasing tank all the time. I had seen sooooo many unexperienced players chasing chicken over the square (read chasing tank) while he was healed by a weak healer.

 

Use your talents to lower cooldown on interupt ability. Use those damn stuns/cc's ( i know i can put a healer on constant cc spam as a tactic vanguard and block his healing powers while both instant cast dps spamming and doting at the same time.

 

It's sometimes hard, but if you all play jedi sentinels and just run+swing your lightbulb zaber on a tank u just fail...

 

And if you do so as a vanguard you are even worse...

 

"Enemy is unbeatable!"

 

"Enemy is immortal!"

 

The signs of a VERY bad team. Even more so when at the end noone even got 5 kills. It's such a simple concept and lost on SO many.

 

Edit: that being said, with the 1.2 expertise changes I do expect healing to be OP for top tier healers.

Edited March 29, 2012 by MartyrLXXVII

[HazardOOI]

Wouldn't that kinda of debuff to a tank mitigate their increased survivability to the point where a full tank spec is pretty much close to useless since it does considerably less damage than a dps build running tank stance for guarding?

 

They would still be much harder to kill because you can't just drop them in the space of a couple ccs on the healer. But at the same time the healer getting out of the lockdown won't immediately undo the entire setup they were doing to kill the tank.

[teyngodown]

20% debuff to healing from pvp combat is nothing when you add the expertise bonus. with a good pvp set you're looking at ~12.5% bonus.

 

So the dps/tank classes get no effective bonus when facing similarly geared opponents but healers do?

 

7.5% decrease to healing is not that noticable.

 

Lets say a healer and a dps are fighting each other, and for the sake easy math lets go with these numbers. (since its a pvp fight the 20% debuff is already accounted for meaning that the healer would heal for 1200 in a pve scenario)

 

DPS=1000 damage - 0 expertise

Healer=1000 heal - 0 expertise

Both are on an even playing field.

 

They fight each other again after they get a 5% expertise bonus

 

DPS=1000 damage - 5% expertise

Healer=1050 heal - 5% expertise

 

They fight each other again at 10% expertise

 

DPS=1000 damage - 10% expertise

Healer=1100 heal - 10% expertise

 

Lets say that expertise stays the same in about 1 years time and expertise has been buffed to a max of 50%

 

DPS= 1000 damage - 50% expertise

Healer= 1500 heal - 50% expertise

 

With the current state of expertise the damage output of the DPS is negated by the damage reduction bonus of equal % given by the healers expertise.

 

So while gaining new gear, increasing expertise, and fighting equally geared opponents, the only classes actually gaining an increase are healers. The DPSers are still doing the same damage and the tanks are still taking the same damage.

 

In the games current state healers are pretty far from "OP" but if expertise continues to scale the same way it does now then healing will eventually crush dps.

[MartyrLXXVII]

20% debuff to healing from pvp combat is nothing when you add the expertise bonus. with a good pvp set you're looking at ~12.5% bonus.

 

So the dps/tank classes get no effective bonus when facing similarly geared opponents but healers do?

 

7.5% decrease to healing is not that noticable.

 

Lets say a healer and a dps are fighting each other, and for the sake easy math lets go with these numbers. (since its a pvp fight the 20% debuff is already accounted for meaning that the healer would heal for 1200 in a pve scenario)

 

DPS=1000 damage - 0 expertise

Healer=1000 heal - 0 expertise

Both are on an even playing field.

 

They fight each other again after they get a 5% expertise bonus

 

DPS=1000 damage - 5% expertise

Healer=1050 heal - 5% expertise

 

They fight each other again at 10% expertise

 

DPS=1000 damage - 10% expertise

Healer=1100 heal - 10% expertise

 

Lets say that expertise stays the same in about 1 years time and expertise has been buffed to a max of 50%

 

DPS= 1000 damage - 50% expertise

Healer= 1500 heal - 50% expertise

 

With the current state of expertise the damage output of the DPS is negated by the damage reduction bonus of equal % given by the healers expertise.

 

So while gaining new gear, increasing expertise, and fighting equally geared opponents, the only classes actually gaining an increase are healers. The DPSers are still doing the same damage and the tanks are still taking the same damage.

 

In the games current state healers are pretty far from "OP" but if expertise continues to scale the same way it does now then healing will eventually crush dps.

 

Actually in 1.2 the diminishing return on expertise is far lighter so having 20-25% expertise will be easy most likely. So the scalling is getting 'worse'.

 

BTW, trauma is 30%, but if you have expertise that all but negates trauma then the point of it balancing pvp healing is completely lost, which is what we'll see in 1.2 unless they change it.

[Orangerascal]

20% debuff to healing from pvp combat is nothing when you add the expertise bonus. with a good pvp set you're looking at ~12.5% bonus.

 

So the dps/tank classes get no effective bonus when facing similarly geared opponents but healers do?

 

7.5% decrease to healing is not that noticable.

 

Lets say a healer and a dps are fighting each other, and for the sake easy math lets go with these numbers. (since its a pvp fight the 20% debuff is already accounted for meaning that the healer would heal for 1200 in a pve scenario)

 

DPS=1000 damage - 0 expertise

Healer=1000 heal - 0 expertise

Both are on an even playing field.

 

They fight each other again after they get a 5% expertise bonus

 

DPS=1000 damage - 5% expertise

Healer=1050 heal - 5% expertise

 

They fight each other again at 10% expertise

 

DPS=1000 damage - 10% expertise

Healer=1100 heal - 10% expertise

 

Lets say that expertise stays the same in about 1 years time and expertise has been buffed to a max of 50%

 

DPS= 1000 damage - 50% expertise

Healer= 1500 heal - 50% expertise

 

With the current state of expertise the damage output of the DPS is negated by the damage reduction bonus of equal % given by the healers expertise.

 

So while gaining new gear, increasing expertise, and fighting equally geared opponents, the only classes actually gaining an increase are healers. The DPSers are still doing the same damage and the tanks are still taking the same damage.

 

In the games current state healers are pretty far from "OP" but if expertise continues to scale the same way it does now then healing will eventually crush dps.

 

Your premise is invalid because 1 year later the dps won't be doing 1000 damage he will be doing 1400 damage while healing won't scale as well and would do 1200 healing (made up numbers).

 

This shows a graph of how poorly healing scales compared to dps.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/primary-and-secondary-attribute-scaling/

Edited March 29, 2012 by Orangerascal

[MrHotter]

The solutions has probably already been said, but just in case....learn to play.

 

In 1.2 we have another class with a healing debuff. If you are in a team you debuff the healer and focus him down, or just ignore the healer and focus down anyone he tries to heal with the debuff.

 

Saying healing is overpowered is like saying that DPS or tanking is overpowered. Learn how to use your teamates skills with yours and stop asking to nerf other people so you can faceroll more.

[Ruuprect]

Your premise is invalid because 1 year later the dps won't be doing 1000 damage he will be doing 1400 damage while healing won't scale as well and would do 1200 healing (made up numbers).

 

This shows a graph of how poorly healing scales compared to dps.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/primary-and-secondary-attribute-scaling/

 

Everybody crying about healing being OP because of expertise = Pwned.

 

You always have great info on your site Lace. Thank you for putting it together:)

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ruuprect

[Groncho]

Do you know what an interrupt is?

 

 

i only use it to turn on/off the light

[MrHotter]

20% debuff to healing from pvp combat is nothing when you add the expertise bonus. with a good pvp set you're looking at ~12.5% bonus.

 

So the dps/tank classes get no effective bonus when facing similarly geared opponents but healers do?

 

7.5% decrease to healing is not that noticable.

 

Lets say a healer and a dps are fighting each other, and for the sake easy math lets go with these numbers. (since its a pvp fight the 20% debuff is already accounted for meaning that the healer would heal for 1200 in a pve scenario)

 

DPS=1000 damage - 0 expertise

Healer=1000 heal - 0 expertise

Both are on an even playing field.

 

They fight each other again after they get a 5% expertise bonus

 

DPS=1000 damage - 5% expertise

Healer=1050 heal - 5% expertise

 

They fight each other again at 10% expertise

 

DPS=1000 damage - 10% expertise

Healer=1100 heal - 10% expertise

 

Lets say that expertise stays the same in about 1 years time and expertise has been buffed to a max of 50%

 

DPS= 1000 damage - 50% expertise

Healer= 1500 heal - 50% expertise

 

With the current state of expertise the damage output of the DPS is negated by the damage reduction bonus of equal % given by the healers expertise.

 

So while gaining new gear, increasing expertise, and fighting equally geared opponents, the only classes actually gaining an increase are healers. The DPSers are still doing the same damage and the tanks are still taking the same damage.

 

In the games current state healers are pretty far from "OP" but if expertise continues to scale the same way it does now then healing will eventually crush dps.

 

Made up numbers are made up.

 

If you counted the trauma debuff in the first numbers why was the healer not healing for 800 while the DPS (not affected by trauma) was at 1000 DPS?

 

Unless your point is that we need to remove trauma from the game so healers start out equal to DPS in PvP.

[Ruuprect]

Made up numbers are made up.

 

If you counted the trauma debuff in the first numbers why was the healer not healing for 800 while the DPS (not affected by trauma) was at 1000 DPS?

 

Unless your point is that we need to remove trauma from the game so healers start out equal to DPS in PvP.

 

Some people have this idea that tauma does not count in calculations because it effects everybody and was put in place to balance healing and dps.