Poor vanguard...

[AMKSED]

Yes, everyone go DPS and drop your Tank specs. I will appreciate that very much when rated WZs come around and I'm vsing you.

[Grubfist]

tactics vanguards dont exist.

 

shame too, the tree has real potential with a few changes. i remember speccing tactics/advanced prototype when i first hit 50 and laughing when 3-4 sorcs kept chaining their knockback with nothing to show for it while i was carrying the ball.

 

They exist. I PvP tactics. It's great. I do more consistent damage and can get some great AoE pulse cannon moments. I've tried assault. It's fun, but it's not my style.

[Mirdthestrill]

You're right, ANY TYPE of Vanguard absolutely demolishes every single class in the game. All of them. When you create a Vanguard, the game actually tells you that you beat SWTOR and rolls the credits.

 

It's pretty awesome.

 

Congratulations on pointlessly mocking innocent hyperbole.

[Varicite]

Congratulations on pointlessly mocking innocent hyperbole.

 

Hyperbole is never innocent. I can make completely false claims about a class as well as the next guy.

 

Also, irony.

[darkrazzy]

Agreed tanks suck in pvp currently. Just drop it and go tactics thats what i did. You still get your defensive cooldowns +medpack if your biochem, cept you actually do sick damage and all the other goodies the tactics tree has to offer.

[Rogmar]

Pure tank in PvP is a flawed concept. The only real way to remedy the situation is if they went back and updated every "tank" ability/talent/stat to have a PvP and PvE version like Taunt, Guard, and Harpoon do.

[Mallegant]

1. Armor is a huge deal in PvP, there's not much armor pen, and the highet armor pen is from a Vanguard's High Impact Bolt.

 

2. Defensive stats, while not always preferred, will go a long way for helping your pvp survivability. Many ACs use melee and ranged attacks. Not al of them, but a significant amount (Marauder, Juggernaut, Sniper, and the dreaded Rail Shot from Bounty Hunters)

 

3. You can shield while stunned.

 

4. You can dodge/parry and shield while channeling.

 

5. Vanguards kick serious ***.

 

6. Stop hybriding. It makes you terrible at both damage and survivability. Let your healers keep you up. You either focus on being a dps, or focus on keeping your teammates alive with guard and taunts and stuns. AKA, PERFORM YOUR ROLE, stop trying to be an unstoppable solo god and play your particular part WELL, your team will cover your weaknesses, that's why there are a variety of classes.

 

 

 

Your last paragraph couldn't explain it more. See the problem with this game is nobody wants to just Tank or Heal. They want it all. That's why BW gave us all the same skills. The problem is that there isn't a variety of pure classes but a bunch of classes full of variety.. If that makes sense.

 

For example: My GF plays a commando lvl 50. She gets tired of DPS'ing she heals. She went up the DPS tree but still has healing skills? lol

 

Whatever happened to pure DPS, Tank, or Healing classes? I remember making many healers/clerics with the sole intent of just healing... I don't expect to be a TANK healer like in Rift. I guess this is the way things are going for the gaming industry now. Might as well accept it.

 

But my Vanguard rocks! I'm full Shield Specialist with all my stats in the shield tree full up except for two i thought were stupid.. Guess which two? he he The 30% speed increase after using storm for like 3 or 4 seconds. WHY? Because when I use storm its usually to get to someone not run away from them... lol

 

Sure I could have went up DPS, or rolled Commando and did DPS and heals...

 

Going to get flamed for this but oh well: Hybrid classes kill the game in terms of definitive roles. Example would be SWG. THey had a Doctor that healed. He didn't have DPS, or Tank abilities just healing and buffing. Same with Entertainers and Musicians.

 

Nobody ever rolled a Doctor because they can tank or dps. (except Rift lmao)

[me_unknown]

Tanks specifically. They get the shaft. The tank vanguard tree is useless in pvp. Once you hit charge(THE reason to go into the tree at all...) the rest is garbage.

 

Oo

 

no offense mate, but this is so damn wrong!

 

i give you a tip: google for "iron fist build vanguard". focusing on the tank tree provides one of the best pvp builds for this class.

 

but i really have to tell you this: why do you open such a thread? instead you should have first do some research about your class. if you had done this you already would have discovered the tip above.

 

it is really annoying that people seem to immediately start whining instead of first doing some digging and research about their class and other classes.

[Brudrust]

Oo

 

no offense mate, but this is so damn wrong!

 

i give you a tip: google for "iron fist build vanguard". focusing on the tank tree provides one of the best pvp builds for this class.

 

but i really have to tell you this: why do you open such a thread? instead you should have first do some research about your class. if you had done this you already would have discovered the tip above.

 

it is really annoying that people seem to immediately start whining instead of first doing some digging and research about their class and other classes.

 

Iron Fist build only goes up to charge and ignores the top two tiers of the tanking tree which is exactly what the OP said.

 

So basically, you're in agreement that going full 31 points into the tanking tree is not a good idea for pvp.

 

And iron fist avoids the majority of the tanking stat based talents such as increased armor and shield chance because they're not worth the points in PVP. Only the flat mitigation talents are worthwhile in pvp and non-tank classes have quite a few of the same talents in their dps trees so they can end up almost as tanky from a personal aspect if they wish (they just can't defend others with taunts and guard).

[me_unknown]

Iron Fist build only goes up to charge and ignores the top two tiers of the tanking tree which is exactly what the OP said.

 

So basically, you're in agreement that going full 31 points into the tanking tree is not a good idea for pvp.

 

And iron fist avoids the majority of the tanking stat based talents such as increased armor and shield chance because they're not worth the points in PVP. Only the flat mitigation talents are worthwhile in pvp and non-tank classes have quite a few of the same talents in their dps trees so they can end up almost as tanky from a personal aspect if they wish (they just can't defend others with taunts and guard).

 

well, yes and no. you do not need the last 6 points and you are wrong that iron fist ignores most of the tanking abilities. beside of this there are many variants of iron fist.

 

many are actually using at least one point in shield cycler. and also increased armor is not useless considering that yuo need to spend 2 points somewhere to get to the next tier.

 

the point is, that a tank spec is viable till very good in pvp. of course, the perfect pve tank build is wasting quite some points, and thus will be worse, but the difference won't be so big that you could call it useless.

on the other way you can modify iron fist in a way to remain as usefull in pvp while being perfect as offtank in pve end game.

 

so no, i totally disagree with the op

[kbstealer]

I would'ent go THAT far.

 

Vanguards can build wicked Pvp specs though that will destroy most other classes very quickly. Tanking ATM is flawed in PvP so my suggestion .. drop the tanking tree go DPS and destroy folks .. its alot of fun. Your pretty squishy yes .. but what you lose in mitigation you MORE than make up for in pure awesome killing power.

 

Try it.

 

QTF

 

my vanguard blows people up with 7/3/31 but is mad squishy, with 10/6/25 (ion cell) you get to be not squishy and still blow people up, just a lil less quickly.

 

my guardian is a different beast, he doesnt asplode people, he jumps around the map protecting teammates and dispatching low hp enemies. still does decent damage, but nothing like what my vanguard can do.

[Emencie]

well, yes and no. you do not need the last 6 points and you are wrong that iron fist ignores most of the tanking abilities. beside of this there are many variants of iron fist.

 

many are actually using at least one point in shield cycler. and also increased armor is not useless considering that yuo need to spend 2 points somewhere to get to the next tier.

 

the point is, that a tank spec is viable till very good in pvp. of course, the perfect pve tank build is wasting quite some points, and thus will be worse, but the difference won't be so big that you could call it useless.

on the other way you can modify iron fist in a way to remain as usefull in pvp while being perfect as offtank in pve end game.

 

so no, i totally disagree with the op

 

Not really... as an Iron fist Van myself. I can say that the only reason I take and pretty much anyone takes shield cycler is for the ammo gain. The shield chance is just attached to it. No one cares about it. In fact the most common and most often used specs take everything in the first 4 tiers of the tree except the pure tanking talents. (Ceramic plating, Smoke grenade, and Rebraced Armor) While few do take one at most of these talents. Generally its only because more than 1 point in shield cycler is considered a waste. and you have to put a point somewhere. Not because they are any good.

 

Tanking abilities are just not nearly useful enough. The very marginal amount of survivability they provide in PvP is laughable compared to all the self healing other classes (shadow, sage, scoundrel, commando) can do. Making those classes even in a DPS role alot more sturdy than an equivalent Iron fist Vanguard. Not to mention the Vanguards complete lack of escape skills and horrid cooldown. A Sentinel can out survive us with use of cooldowns.

 

What makes the Iron fist so popular and good. is the mobility mixed with damage / survivability that is good enough to take down most targets 1v1.The insane interrupt ability of chain storming / Riot striking. The utility of a reduced cooldown harpoon and perpetual slowing can make the Iron fist one of the most annoying defenders in a WZ. This mixed with the ability to guard make it popular.

 

Is shield spec useless in PvP? No it isn't. But the OP is right that no competitive PVPer goes beyond storm. And honestly if storm wasn't in that tree most of us wouldn't even look at it twice. If for example storm was in Tactics. You would never see a serious PvP spec that was primarily shield

Edited March 15, 2012 by Emencie

[dcgregorya]

I triple win in most matches - objective points, damage and protection. Now granted, I shouldn't be winning on damage (pug clickers ftw...) but to say you'll never be shielding anything in PVP isn't accurate. There is no question from anyone who has tested out both that 30 point shield spec will stay up longer than the 25 variant - it just isn't as good for solo fights and isn't as tankorific as PVE.

 

Still it's easy to put out 200k+ damage on a shield tank spec while still absorbing an obscene amount of damage.

[dcgregorya]

Agreed tanks suck in pvp currently. Just drop it and go tactics thats what i did. You still get your defensive cooldowns +medpack if your biochem, cept you actually do sick damage and all the other goodies the tactics tree has to offer.

 

I feel like this is a L2P issue.

 

Tanks have their place. They can easily score in huttball. They can chain interrupt with harpoon, storm, riot strike and cryo for an unending number of interrupts if they keep the chain going. Their mitigation is far superior against any non-tech/force attacks, which there are still quite a few.

 

When it comes to tech attacks, aside from the paper tiger operative/scoundrel, who is throwing lots of uninterruptable force/tech attacks at you? The only one that puts out significant pain is tracer spammers who you can quite easily chain interrupt and completely wreck.

 

Not sure what people are expecting out of tanks in PVP other than being able to accomplish everything they want to accomplish while still doing great damage.

[Emencie]

Not sure what people are expecting out of tanks in PVP other than being able to accomplish everything they want to accomplish while still doing great damage.

 

Really its simple like I said before and you said. Tank spec Van is great for interrupting, tossing out guard and great mobility and some pretty good skills.

 

Which I actually like. but if you thought you were going to tank in PvP its a rude awakening. Especially when you notice the DPS and healers are the most survivable. And you are hardly targeted thanks to you being one of the least important targets to deal with. That's not taking its DPSing while you have guard on someone.

 

No one likes their abilities to just not work. And that's what BW did with the tanking stats / skills in PvP and that is what people don't like. Its also why you see so few Tank specs in PvP. Its worth it to take enough tank spec to be able to guard effectively while DPSing but honestly because of taunt. Even that (for some tanks) is just not worth it. and you are seeing more and more pure DPS Vanguards and PTs.

[exphryl]

I get the feeling most people are not reading the thread.

 

- OP is not asking for lol Hybrid Builds

- OP is not asking for DPS Builds

 

He is talking about a full Tank build.

 

Carry on.

[MartyrLXXVII]

I get the feeling most people are not reading the thread.

 

- OP is not asking for lol Hybrid Builds

- OP is not asking for DPS Builds

 

He is talking about a full Tank build.

 

Carry on.

 

Yeah, but even with a full tank build with functioning defensive stats... Tank builds in pvp are gimp, you have to go hybrid, in any game.

 

Yeah you can go full tank and guard/taunt all match, just with all the cc its easy to ignore the tank. Just boot them and their guard out of range of each other and job done.

 

Concepts of tanks have never fully worked in pvp because you just get ignored. That is until WAR hit then what we have with guard and giants made things better. But you still have to hybrid in the damage or your usefulness is seriously limited.

 

The one thing about tanks in pvp is you have to look for utility not just survivability. Protection, control, and damage all have to be used it equal measure to be a good pvp tank, regardless of the game.

[Slackfumasta]

This has to be a troll thread. BM-level Vanguard tanks are unkillable in PVP. We have a guy on our server who can grab the ball and just walk to the goalline, and the other team simply can't get him down. I've been on the other team, unloading GR/DR/HIB into him and not even making a dent. It's depressing.

 

Tanks in general are too tough in pvp.

[lightertripod]

I think alot miss understand how the system works and what the devs intended

 

tanking stats work well as intended vs weapon damage and none force/tech ability's

 

vs class that used mostly these types of attacks you can and will tank well

 

there are class's that are intended "tank killers"

 

the problem is 2 fold firstly some of these class make up a large % of the popluation

 

secondly even the none tank killer have some if not many force/tech type ability's these are also often the best/highest DPS moves so they get used most

 

so add up the high % of "tank killers" runing about with the others using a large proption of force/tech ability's tanks feel like they giving up DPS for nothing

 

Georg Zoeller said that where this is the case as detailed above % of "tank killers" is high tanks are basiclly better off to run DPS gear (and I am sure he would agree a full tank spec would be a bad idea as well better to hybrid or full DPS)

 

the funny part of it all is as my main guardian the only time I would use mostly attacks that a tank has defence against is when speced as tank myself hybrid or full in the other 2 tree's I use mostly and in the best case's only force based ability's

 

Whats the solution

 

truth is there might not be one as its not like the design is not as intended more flawed on the short sightness of what class's would be most popular

 

they could have a rethink on how defence works to include tech and force but that might make tanks to powerful unkillabe maybe plus this would have impact on all parts of the game not just pvp

[MartyrLXXVII]

This has to be a troll thread. BM-level Vanguard tanks are unkillable in PVP. We have a guy on our server who can grab the ball and just walk to the goalline, and the other team simply can't get him down. I've been on the other team, unloading GR/DR/HIB into him and not even making a dent. It's depressing.

 

Tanks in general are too tough in pvp.

 

Lol, if anything this sounds more like trolling, at the very least its extreme exaggeration or they are completely oblivious to the other tank/healers keeping the guy up.

[GianBaal]

Someomes never ran into a good 21/2/18 vanguard.

 

that might be so because there are no good 21/2/18 vanguards, and how could they with such a crappy spec?

[AidenPryde]

Compared to the Immortal Juggernaut/Guardian tank the PT/Vanguard tank is a god on the battlefield.

 

You do twice as much damage and can taunt others and guard others just as well.

 

Plus you have something that Juggernauts don't get. A native pull. This by far makes you the most powerful tank in the game. You are better than Assassins because you have a charge and can engage targets at all ranges, while the Assassin and Immortal cannot.

 

I have a 50 War Hero Juggernaut and I have extensively played all three specs in PvP. So I know a little about this.

 

I currently have a PT Shield Tech (Tank) specced and I PvP in the sub 50 WZs all the time.

 

I usually get more medals and outdamage the DPS classes because I can stay up longer.

 

The experience Sub 50 is about the same as it is at 50 in terms of what each class can do.

 

Currently tanky classes like the Juggernaut (Vengeance not Immortal specced) and PT (Shield Tech or Pyro Tech specced) are the best classes in the game.

[Emencie]

This has to be a troll thread. BM-level Vanguard tanks are unkillable in PVP. We have a guy on our server who can grab the ball and just walk to the goalline, and the other team simply can't get him down. I've been on the other team, unloading GR/DR/HIB into him and not even making a dent. It's depressing.

 

Tanks in general are too tough in pvp.

 

If a "tank" grabs the hutball and walks into the endzone with no one able to stop him... I hate to say it but that is so much L2P its insane.

 

Now if what you are saying is the tank grabs the hut ball and with 2 or more healers trailing him he just walks to the endzone with a guard on him and you cant stop him. I agree it happens but honestly with good healers that happens all the time no matter the class. And its not the tank's tankyness that is keeping him alive its the heals.

 

But unkillable lol... unkillable 1v1? maybe I'd give you that. But trust me when I say a Sage/commando will live a lot longer than any Van in outnumbered situations. And even the Iron fist has a very hard time putting out the burst needed to take down good healers. The best tactic is to shut them down while another teammate kills them since they cant do much with a Van in their face.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Emencie

[Manigma]

I think alot miss understand how the system works and what the devs intended

 

tanking stats work well as intended vs weapon damage and none force/tech ability's

 

vs class that used mostly these types of attacks you can and will tank well

 

there are class's that are intended "tank killers"

 

the problem is 2 fold firstly some of these class make up a large % of the popluation

 

secondly even the none tank killer have some if not many force/tech type ability's these are also often the best/highest DPS moves so they get used most

 

so add up the high % of "tank killers" runing about with the others using a large proption of force/tech ability's tanks feel like they giving up DPS for nothing

 

Georg Zoeller said that where this is the case as detailed above % of "tank killers" is high tanks are basiclly better off to run DPS gear (and I am sure he would agree a full tank spec would be a bad idea as well better to hybrid or full DPS)

 

the funny part of it all is as my main guardian the only time I would use mostly attacks that a tank has defence against is when speced as tank myself hybrid or full in the other 2 tree's I use mostly and in the best case's only force based ability's

 

Whats the solution

 

truth is there might not be one as its not like the design is not as intended more flawed on the short sightness of what class's would be most popular

 

they could have a rethink on how defence works to include tech and force but that might make tanks to powerful unkillabe maybe plus this would have impact on all parts of the game not just pvp

So why is it my tech attacks do much less damage to heavy armoured target? Before you say gear disparity I have full BM gear. There must be something that is lowering my damage to them.

[Pistols]

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle...

 

I'm secksy and I know it...