1.2's splitting PvP / PvE gear will irreversibly DAMAGE the game.

[muradi]

Why do you have pve ers on a pvp server?

Death to them all.

[AidenPryde]

Why do you have pve ers on a pvp server?

Death to them all.

 

Quite simply because of Expertise.

 

Expertise has a hard diminishing return that starts around 10%. So it doesn't make sense for a BM to go full PvP gear.

 

Once you reach 10-11% Expertise it becomes a losing battle and it makes more sense to put a couple PvE pieces in the mix. Such as the Rakata Earpieces/Implants you can get from your dailies.

[SneiK]

There is no problem with this. You PvP mostly but you want to PvE as well? You can. Normal/Story mode is for that.

 

You PvE mostly and wanna PvP? Well PvP gear will not take so much effort so you just have to live with that grind (If you have full rakata it should be no problem whatsoever).

 

Spending 100+hours in a dungeon SHOULD NOT give you any advantage in PvP. Sorry.

[Matty-Wan]

Maybe I am missing the thrust of the OP's position but I simply have two complete sets of gear. When I que for a WZ I pop on my pvp stuff and for pve I just switch back to my pve set. It never occurred to me that I was experiencing a problem with the system.

 

That said, I would never have thought twice about it if the outfitting in this game wasn't divided in two at launch. I never played WoW so I didn't know 2 sets was how its done in this type of game.

[EchoTwoOmega]

I agree almost completly with the original post.

 

Expertise is a huge mistake.

 

I understand that its a "fudge" stat so they can keep pvp "balanced" as people get more and more gear. It helps keep gear proliferation in check.

 

HOWEVER:

 

PVP should be about skill and competition not who has the bigger epeen...er I mean gearscore....er I mean .....

 

10-49 is nice with the bloster that pretty much puts everyone on a somewhat even playing field. It would be nice to see the 50 battleground have a similar feature. It does not fix world PVP but...

Edited March 12, 2012 by EchoTwoOmega

[StealthStalker]

actually no. this would totally break everything. it is the worst idea ever!

 

one of the most important reasons for expertise is to prevent the need of regrinding gear with new PVE content. with the change in your post any pvper will have to grind for pve gear again and again when there comes new pve content.

because the new gear will not only have that pve-expertise rating but also better attributes overall. thus outperforming the current top pvp gear.

 

expertise must be on pvp gear and it must make pvp gear better in PVE than any pve gear that you ever will get in future pve content.

 

the only way expertise may be currently broken is that it is TOO WEAK!

 

edit: i really do not understand why people are complaining that expertise pvp gear is killing them so badly as fresh 50 while it is so easy to get the gear yourself.

 

THERE IS NO PROBLEM! jhust invest a few days to get the gear to be competitiv.

 

What? No. The PvE gear can match the PvP gear at any tier (or even be less effective!), the Expertise stat is the only thing that needs to raise to increase the difficulty of the PvE content.

 

You don't really seem to grasp the concept at all.

Edited March 12, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Khultar]

Hey, Luciela here:

 

I stopped posting in this forum for a long time. I read somewhere patch 1.2 preview that bioware will be changing (probably buffing) expertise so that PvP and PvE gears will be even more incompatible.

 

 

After reading that, I'd have to stress that: splitting PvP / PvE gear will IRREVERSIBLY damage this game.

 

 

Making PvP and PvE incompatible with each other itemwise, will also further fuel the schism between PvP and PvE community. Many players tend to focus largely on progressing in either PVP or PVE, and are unwilling to invest in the less favorable gear. (I.E. I mainly play pvp. do operation in pvp gear 'for fun')

 

PVP/PVE gear incompatibility will further cause characters to be "specialized" in PvP or PvE. Since PVE gears will perform poorly in PVP, PVEers will be discouraged from playing PVP, and vice versa. This divide will be irreversible, since most PVPers will end up hating PVE, while PVEers will end up hating PVP.

 

In long story short, you plan to force players into dividing between PVP and PVE, and only let them play "half the game".

 

 

 

 

 

Exact same thing is what happened in WoW:

 

 

Remember in vanilla and burning crusade WoW, TOP pve guilds in the world also ran the top pvp teams? If you know any names, guilds such as Nihilum and SK Gaming excelled in both pvp and pve, with arena teams in SK top 200 arena list, blizzcon, MLG, and world first kills on virtually all bosses. Today, not only is such a thing unimaginable, but also there is so much hate between PvP and PvE community. So many posts scream "shut up pvp guy" or "pve is killing pvp" - sometimes I wonder how they even tolerate playing the same game with one another.

 

 

How did this all happen? It is because of resilience (same stat as expertise in SWTOR). TIMELINE:

 

1. Vanilla WoW - complete lack of resilience. Most players participate in both pve and pvp.

 

 

2. In the burning crusade expansion, resilience is introduced. However, TBC resilience only reduced damage from DOT and criticals, and was nowhere as good as it is today. This therefore made PvP gears subpar for raiding. However, (since resilience wasn't that great), some PvE gear gave large advantage in arena, and thought by some to be "required" for competitive PVP.

 

However, even this disadvantage wasn't as big as you think. One of my high school friends and his brother who played in BG9 ran the highest rated rogue + disc priest 2v2 in the world, with ZERO PvE gear. All other rogues they faced at their ratings were loaded with pve gears and dual warglaives of azzinoth (rogue were one of the more PVE gear dependent classes in TBC)

 

 

3. In wrath of the lich king expansion, blizzard completely overhauls resilience. It is now completely impossible to play competitively using PvE gears in PvP and vice versa. WoW community [permanently] splits into PVE and PVP. Most of the PvP imbalances are largely ignored throughout the expansion ("resilience will fix it" mentality by developers).

 

 

4. Over the years, Blizzard patches mostly according to numbers generated in PvE. Results: even more class imbalance in PvP. Animosity between pvp and pve communities further increases.

 

 

5. Fueled by schism between PvP / PvE and exacerbated by imbalance issues, PvP participation in wow declines DRAMATICALLY over time.

 

If you want to see the statistics, it is as following. Note: Gladiator = assigned to top 0.5% team on ladder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will this really happen to SWTOR? WoW and SWTOR are different games - no one can predict what will happen to this game.

 

 

Right now, I wear full battlemasters gear and have no problem running hard mode operations. PvE gears are also largely useable in PvP too, as long as one has 400+ expertise. Apparently, for whatever reason bioware doesn't want that, which I guess furthers their trend of copying only the bad part of wow, while ignoring the good part in an effort to appear different :/.

 

A piece of advice from Luciela - don't make PvE and PvP gears incompatible.

 

 

Mimimi, cry moar...baby, cry....

[RealAeiouy]

The problem with PvP and PvE sharing gear is that atm it is WAY easier to get the best PvP gear compared to the best PvE gear and that means people will do PvP to get the best gear even if they dont want to do PvP. Now sometime has past and that player has gotten the best gear in the game from doing PvP and he can do PvE no problem now, but now there is no reward in doing PvE and he will do a raid once or twice then quit, same goes for PvP if someone gets the very best from PvE and then starts PvP it won't last for very long, because people want a reward for PvPing or PvEing, some might say i don't care about gear and I just love PvE or PvP, but that is a VERY small percent of players.

 

 

 

The bottom line is sharing one set of gear ruins pvp and pve. Having seperate gear with bis for both sides are gained respectively is the only way to go.

 

If pvers can get gear afking warzones they will because they don't care about ruining pvp for pvp players. This floods warzones with quitters, losers and slackers and seriously hurts pvp.

 

Conversely with so many people fonng king that it reduces the people trying to pve and gives less reason to pve.

 

One set of gear is the worst of both worlds. The ideal solution is the best earned gear in pvp is VASTLY superior to any pve gear for pvp and the best pve gear is VASTLY superior for pve than any pvp gear. For people who want to do both, count yourself lucky to have that much more to do.

 

The absolute worst solution is a single set of gear. There is no way to balance it so pve players pve and pvp players pvp. That means most players will be very dissatisfied.

[Warstorms]

Wrong. PvP and PvE are and should reamin completely different things.

 

Reasons being.

 

One is versing a NPC, one is versing a SKILLED PLAYER. One requres a completely different statistacal makeup from the other to keep both content interesting and competitive.

 

You sir. Are just a little b*tch. Eat some concrete, and toughen the F up.

 

Wow did not fail because of the introduction to resiliance, it added more depth and content to the game, apealed to a larger target market by giving the player base another avenue down its unlimited content. Which is, after all, the sole purpose of a MMO.

 

*hands crybaby some concrete*

[RealAeiouy]

In 1.2 there will be no reason to actually PvP more than a little a day , so we all will have the time to easily go get a set of PvE gear also.

 

So you can stick to pve. Real pvp players will continue to pvp.

[Jinnz]

I miss the good old days where pve and pvp were mized. Ultima online, everquest. these kids ruin games and then complain they have got exactly what they want, but not in the way they wanted it.

 

GW2 will fix it.

[Rasheth]

Agree with OP.

 

What the OP is saying that PvP gear should be viable in PvE as it is now! A BM geared tank isn't as good as a full Rakata Tank but he is viable allowing him access to become full rakata through raiding.

 

Most certainly the ops and hms will become harder as they have said in the summit so pvp gear wont be as viable in those HM but as long as their is not a large barrier to entry everything should be fine. Its the same thing casuals or pver's are asking for and already have being able to take there columi gear into warzones now mix in a little expertise and profit.

[RealAeiouy]

I agree with the OP personally. Artificial barriers between PvE and PvP are really unnecessary as long as the content is fun.

 

Look at the leveling experience from 1-49. There's almost no expertise gear to be found, but plenty of ways to progress. You have planetary commendation gear, FP gear, World Boss gear, PvP gear and crafted gear, all of which are roughly equal. And you have people taking part in all of it.

 

Why does that have to change at 50?

 

IMO all progression should be equal, that way you can improve your character by doing whichever you like best, without locking yourself out of the other aspects completely.

 

 

 

That's really not what he/she was asking for at all. Try to keep up.

 

1-49 leveling is much more important to players than maxxing out gear.

 

This changes at 50, so it is not a good comparison.

[kijthae]

Hey, Luciela here:

 

 

 

Making PvP and PvE incompatible with each other itemwise, will also further fuel the schism between PvP and PvE community. Many players tend to focus largely on progressing in either PVP or PVE, and are unwilling to invest in the less favorable gear. (I.E. I mainly play pvp. do operation in pvp gear 'for fun')

 

 

This is exactly what has to be done.Splitting community. If i want to join an other I must spend efforts as others do. Being in a operation with pvp gear or performing better then a tier 1 pvp geared player with my end game operation drops is unfair. PVE geared players must be foods of pvp geared people and pvp geared people shouldnt get an invite to operations.

 

Solution is buffing expertise.

Edited March 12, 2012 by kijthae

[SmokingGoose]

So you want to go back to the days were people who pve'd only and sometimes did bgs dominated those who only did pvp?

 

No thank you.

Vanilla wow was terrible in pvp because of that.

The best gear for pvp should only come from pvp.

 

And mixing gear would have to mean that pvp gear was viable for pve.

But that would make pve too easy and boring because if a person could clear ops in pvp gear then in pve gear it would be a breeze.

 

wait..isn't that the case now?

Edited March 12, 2012 by SmokingGoose

[RealAeiouy]

I just had an a great idea.

 

What if Expertise was not based on your gear, but instead on your valor level.

 

Everyone could get gear via coms and stuff still, but they normalized the PvP and PvE gear, and maybe increased the cost of PvP gear to make it more like PvE gear in terms of the grind.

 

So say you were valor rank 50. You would have a PvP reduction of say 8%. At valor 60 it would be 10%, at 100, 11%.

 

There are your diminishing returns without dividing the community, and the raiders wouldn't be able to completely dominate PvP.

 

The problem is the best pvp gear would be wearing pve and grinding valor.

 

The best pvp gear should be able to be acquired by people who don't pve.

[RealAeiouy]

Pretty sure they were planning on toning down expertise not buffing it, or rather its scaling, in order to make avoid making fresh 50s/Centurians cannon fodder for BMs.

 

Nope they are going to boost expertise on the low end and high end. Which is the right thing to do.

[Dlema]

This post is just rubbish. People NO matter what will either do pvp/pve or both. I myself hate most pve and dont want to be forced to do it just to stay competitive in pvp.

[Tinmancreeping]

Now try taking your BM gear into 16 man nightmare mode and tell me you keep up....cause you don't.

 

This is not true. I was 1st BM on my server, while guild was raiding I was pvping (only needed 1 tank so I had nothing to do anyways) We move to 16 mans and I play in BM gear because i had no PVE gear and BM still *for the most part* was better than the t2 gear(main differnce was armor bonus). IT is 100% possible for WHOLE operations team to run Pve content in Pvp gear. I tanked NM in BM too, Im a Shadow.

[RealAeiouy]

Because without a pvp stat you would be forced to raid in order to be the best at pvp, which wouldnt be good for those that like to only pvp, if you made it so all gear was the same and you could get the high end pve gear from pvp you would negate the gating of pve content and make it so that in order to progress fast pve'er would be forced to pvp, which would be bad for that only like pve

 

You get it. It is not possible to balance a single set of gear. Trying just leads to horrible pvp and horrible pve.

[RealAeiouy]

This is probably a bit off topic but this is neither the sole or primary reason that expertise should be removed. A stat that further adds to the gear divide between players is a terrible idea, especially in the way this is implemented - increase to damage dealt, reduction on damage received. It's completely nullified for players with an equal level of expertise (aside from the boost to healing) and creates world boss of an opponent for a player without any.

 

Actually expertise is the best way to keep pve gear from being the best in pvp without creating any balance issues. The nullification is why it works.

[RealAeiouy]

I like to PvP a little sometimes. My main is lvl48 and has rank 31. So you can tell I'm no hardcore PvP but I do play it once in a while. Now if I will get killed in 2 seconds each time I do a warzone just because I do not have the latest and best PvP gear I will stop doing PvP.

 

I used to do arena season 1 and 2 also I liked battlegrounds. But then resiliance got more and more important as a result I stopped arena (I think the arena idea is bad) and only played battlegrounds once in a while.

 

Now if BW wants to keep casual players interested PvP they will make sure that PvP is easy to obtain OR you can PvP with PvE gear.

 

I mostly pvp. If I go do the top tier pve operation in nightmare mode and die then I won't want to pve anymore either.

 

To be honest this system is much more friendly to pvers than pvpers. Pvers can max out full pvp gear way more easily than the other way around. For now we are okay with it. If pvers keep complaining though and we may just all revolt and ask for a bigger commitment to get p pvp gear. I don't have time to pve so should I just get the bis pve gear right away?

[kweassa]

I mostly pvp. If I go do the top tier pve operation in nightmare mode and die then I won't want to pve anymore either.

 

To be honest this system is much more friendly to pvers than pvpers. Pvers can max out full pvp gear way more easily than the other way around. For now we are okay with it. If pvers keep complaining though and we may just all revolt and ask for a bigger commitment to get p pvp gear. I don't have time to pve so should I just get the bis pve gear right away?

 

^^^ The final nail to the coffin.

[glenbruton]

Nice OP. Well done

[RealAeiouy]

The highest endgame pve tier gear should be equivalent to the lowest tier pvp gear in pvp.

 

The highest endgame pvp tier gear should be equivalent to the lowest tier pve gear in pve.

 

That is what the developers should shoot for. Either side has top end gear and then they are fully equipped with lower tier gear and can build on it from there.