1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

[Gadian]

Two other problems though for which we continue to bring up. First, the gear disparity is a false statement because it is there for all to obtain. It has been patched in to make it easier. The entry even stated by the developers is easier than PvE. Other than handing it to you they really can't make it any easier.

 

It is disingenuous to call the gear disparity a "false" issue, because it is "there for all to obtain." Technically everything in an mmo is "there for all to obtain."

 

Maybe, as it currently stands, pvp gear is fairly easy to obtain in this game, and maybe it is easier to obtain than it used to be, and thats fine. Most of the posts are in response to the OPs pining for gear rewards for pvp grinding. There is just a fundamental disagreement between the PVE community and the PVP community about whether gear based rewards should be given for PVP grinding.

 

Furthermore, if people can't be bothered to do a whee bit of work of which is required now, then they won't do a bit more work to partake in anything rated....

 

Let me just say that a "whee bit of work," is a statement of degree, and means different things to the guy who plays this game like a part-time (or full-time) job vs. the guy who plays more casually.

 

The second issue is incentive. Titled have already been granted like skittles falling from the sky. Pull up your character and take a peek. Anyone who did the class quests, side quests, heroic quests, flashpoints, space, and even a bit of PvP have titles.

 

There isnt' a portal with stats for bragging rights. I don't know who killed the most, lost the most, highest hit, weakest hit. I don't know who is ganking people in the world more than others. We have nothing.

 

I tend to agree with you here. If you look carefully at people who share my position, it can be distilled down to these points:

 

1. You should PVP for the pure fun of PVP.
   
2. Gear disparity detracts from the fun of PVP.
   
3. Gear should not be used as incentives for PVP (See #2, above)
   
4. Non gear-based incentives (ratings) can be a boost for the PVP experience.
   

[venjinze]

That's not my scenario at all, that's just some drivel you made up. Let's call it what it is, shall we?

 

That's not the system we're talking about, we're talking about the 1.2 changes for gear. I'm not sure where this fantasy land scenario you just made up came from, but it has no bearing on anything.

 

In 1.2, there will be PvP gear and you can obtain it like everyone else, given some time. It will be just as good as what the best players wear, but they will probably get theirs faster. And they will still probably kill you, because they are the best players.

 

As for your last line, this actually doesn't apply to PvP at all, because the opponents you face are dynamic and reactive. They ARE the harder content, not their gear. Their tactics/strategy/skill is the harder content. The fact that they are rated higher than you makes them harder content, usually.

 

In PvE, this doesn't happen, so the only way to make you progress is through making harder content and giving you stronger gear to tackle it. PvP doesn't have this shortcoming and doesn't need to follow the same model.

 

 

Actually, if you read half of these entitlement posts you'd see where I got that scenario from. It's not something I fabricated.

 

Secondly, I've played competitive PvP in most of the prevalent MMO's. No forum is full of this ridiculous nonsense about removing PvP gear entirely. I PvP, I only PvP - I have a guild of 40+ PvP players, none of them complain. They enjoy it, and they enjoy the rewards for the effort they put in.

 

You've further enforced my point by stating that ANYONE will be able to have the opportunity to acquire the best PvP gear in 1.2. If you have crappy gear, you'll be matched up against opponents with the equivalent, why is that so hard to understand? You then get to acquire Warhero gear, the best PvP gear in game, without having to face opponents that are better geared. The more gear you acquire, dependent on your ability to PvP, the higher you'll move up the ladder. Progression.

 

I like progression in PvP, so do many others.

[Seriasx]

You've quoted me like 3 times, anyways explain how I am missing the point exactly?

 

Here's your scenario for the PvP centric player:

 

I primarly PvP therefore I do not require any gear to do so, when I enter a warzone all statistics, regardless of gear, are normalized. Even playing field so to speak.

 

Here I am in Ilum, in my orange and green gear, (remember I don't PvE) and I encounter PvE centric player of the opposing faction, he's rolling around in full raid gear. Who's going to win?

 

 

 

Why should someone who 'casually' PvP's be on par gear wise as someone who's main focus is PvP. It's the same logic vice versa.

 

Again, top tier teams will be facing off against other top tier teams, you have to work your way up the ladder, i.e. progression, this includes PvP gear. As you said, the reason you have to obtain better PvE gear is to be able to tackle harder content, this also applies to PvP.

 

Its trivial at this point to get PvP gear, regardless of your play time.

 

 

Because outgearing your opponent isnt fun for the guy who dies nor is it fun for the guy who wins, well it shouldnt be fun for the guy who wins.

 

In short -

 

Best warzone matches are the closest matches, removing gear from the equation allows us to have more of those type of matches. Everyone wins when games start off as evenly as possible

[Incendergel]

It is disingenuous to call the gear disparity a "false" issue, because it is "there for all to obtain." Technically everything in an mmo is "there for all to obtain."

 

Maybe, as it currently stands, pvp gear is fairly easy to obtain in this game, and maybe it is easier to obtain than it used to be, and thats fine. Most of the posts are in response to the OPs pining for gear rewards for pvp grinding. There is just a fundamental disagreement between the PVE community and the PVP community about whether gear based rewards should be given for PVP grinding.

 

We disagree. It is there, has been patched to make it easier two different ways to Tuesday. Furthermore the devs said PvP was more popular because the gear was easier to obtain. People, sheep, flock to whatever is easier. Obviously the grind as many of you are calling it wasn't so bad after all, huh?

 

Let me just say that a "whee bit of work," is a statement of degree, and means different things to the guy who plays this game like a part-time (or full-time) job vs. the guy who plays more casually.

 

False statement. You can play as long or little as you want and still get the gear - there was absolutely nothing standing in your way other than your own style of play. Queue WZ's inbetween quests, save valor, buy 6 bags when you reach 50 problem solved. Once 50 do the dailies and pick up the weekly. Doing the dailies each day if you could then the weekly is done on its own. You only had to win 3 games. You still only have to win 3 games. To complete the 30 kill quest play 10 games. Chances are you will need to do that many anyway to win 3....again, it is so simple even part time.

 

You really need to stop the time thing because it isn't even a factor. It is a flat out lie and you know it. I can complete 10 games in a hour easy. This game is super casual friendly - more than I've ever known.

[venjinze]

Because outgearing your opponent isnt fun for the guy who dies nor is it fun for the guy who wins, well it shouldnt be fun for the guy who wins.

 

In short -

 

Best warzone matches are the closest matches, removing gear from the equation allows us to have more of those type of matches. Everyone wins when games start off as evenly as possible

 

Holy ****, read my entire post.

 

In 1.2 you'll have an opportunity to progress in rated warzones. If you're a new level 50, this is a great way to start in PvP because you won't be facing those fearsome battlemasters, not until you've acquired some gear and some experience.

 

If you think removing gear from the PvP equation will somehow make you more competitive without having the experience, simply put, you're delusional.

Edited March 16, 2012 by venjinze

[Seriasx]

Exactly, lots of pvers did wzs to get gear faster without group/raid pre-reqs.

 

Now the pvp gear wont work in pve so those guys no longer need a gear grind from pvp, they can go to solo dailys or step up to Flashpoints.

 

Pvp for gear doesnt work

[Incendergel]

 

Best warzone matches are the closest matches, removing gear from the equation allows us to have more of those type of matches. Everyone wins when games start off as evenly as possible

 

Again, you can go play in the 10 - 49 bracket and not worry about gear. I actually hear it is pretty fun. I know my alt loves it.

 

You can also head over to the outlaws den, strip down, put on a thong or loin cloth, and pvp till you die from exhaustion.

[venjinze]

Exactly, lots of pvers did wzs to get gear faster without group/raid pre-reqs.

 

Now the pvp gear wont work in pve so those guys no longer need a gear grind from pvp, they can go to solo dailys or step up to Flashpoints.

 

Pvp for gear doesnt work

 

Lol what? I have full BM gear and I'm still in warzones or Ilum homie. Won't find me doing dailies.

[Richoshist]

New proposition: ALL PVP GEAR IN 1.2 HAS A RANKED WZ RATING REQUIREMENT ON IT. YOU MUST HAVE A RANKING OF XX TO PURCHASE THIS GEAR!!!

 

The new PvP gear has zero mods in it. All the 1.2 PvP mods are available for WZ commendations and have no rating requirements.

 

There ya go "progression" people. Happy now?

[Varicite]

Actually, if you read half of these entitlement posts you'd see where I got that scenario from. It's not something I fabricated.

 

Secondly, I've played competitive PvP in most of the prevalent MMO's. No forum is full of this ridiculous nonsense about removing PvP gear entirely. I PvP, I only PvP - I have a guild of 40+ PvP players, none of them complain. They enjoy it, and they enjoy the rewards for the effort they put in.

 

You've further enforced my point by stating that ANYONE will be able to have the opportunity to acquire the best PvP gear in 1.2. If you have crappy gear, you'll be matched up against opponents with the equivalent, why is that so hard to understand? You then get to acquire Warhero gear, the best PvP gear in game, without having to face opponents that are better geared. The more gear you acquire, dependent on your ability to PvP, the higher you'll move up the ladder. Progression.

 

I like progression in PvP, so do many others.

 

I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically and then brought up a scenario suggested by "half of these entitlement posts" that has nothing to do w/ me whatsoever.

 

I'm glad that you enjoy the current state of MMO PvP; I enjoy PvP as well, and it's all I do also. I hit BM before the changes, and I never considered it a grind because I like to PvP; what else would I have been doing? So we both like to PvP, cool. I still don't agree w/ you, though.

 

The way a "ladder" system works is that you climb it, and get matched against better opponents based on your successes (or worse opponents, if you lose). Because of the nature of a ladder system, if only the top players are awarded w/ better gear, lower-rated players WILL meet them in combat as they try to also join the ranks of high rated players.

 

It doesn't work out like "only people w/ good gear fight people w/ good gear", because then how would people in the worse gear EVER obtain better gear? That's right, by fighting the people w/ better gear while wearing their worse gear.

 

I like the way that 1.2 is set up better; it's a step in the right direction. Top rated players should have other rewards.

 

I am in total agreement that the awards announced thus far are kind of lackluster, but I don't think that a stat advantage should be the answer. Not in what is supposed to be "competitive" PvP.

[Varicite]

New proposition: ALL PVP GEAR IN 1.2 HAS A RANKED WZ RATING REQUIREMENT ON IT. YOU MUST HAVE A RANKING OF XX TO PURCHASE THIS GEAR!!!

 

The new PvP gear has zero mods in it. All the 1.2 PvP mods are available for WZ commendations and have no rating requirements.

 

There ya go "progression" people. Happy now?

 

I'm down w/ this.

[Seriasx]

Holy ****, read my entire post.

 

In 1.2 you'll have an opportunity to progress in rated warzones. If you're a new level 50, this is a great way to start in PvP because you won't be facing those fearsome battlemasters, not until you've acquired some gear and some experience.

 

If you think removing gear from the PvP equation will somehow make you more competitive without having the experience, simply put, you're delusional.

 

I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about the new guy who has no chance of having fun, the only part this change will affect for me is I'll be playing more matches that can go either way win or lose, those matches are fun, not knowing if I'm going to win or lose before the game starts is alot more fun than auto winning because of gear disparities.

 

I think removing gear will help many of the no lifers learn how to play their class, they might even gain a basic understanding of other classes and their builds, altogether it will make for better pvp.

 

Gear grind works really well in pve though

[Seriasx]

Again, you can go play in the 10 - 49 bracket and not worry about gear. I actually hear it is pretty fun. I know my alt loves it.

 

You can also head over to the outlaws den, strip down, put on a thong or loin cloth, and pvp till you die from exhaustion.

 

I do play in the 10-49 while levelling alts, it is pretty fun and closer to balance than 50 pvp, will be nice once gear disparity is removed from 50 pvp.

[Gadian]

Actually, if you read half of these entitlement posts you'd see where I got that scenario from. It's not something I fabricated.

 

Secondly, I've played competitive PvP in most of the prevalent MMO's. No forum is full of this ridiculous nonsense about removing PvP gear entirely.

 

I found your problem - you are chasing a ghost. Nobody is arguing that PvP gear should be removed entirely. That is why your ridiculous scenario about a random Ilum encounter made no sense to anyone.

 

Again, nobody is arguing that PvP gear should be removed entirely. We merely want the grind to get the best gear to be a short one.

 

PvP gear is one of the best ideas an MMO has ever come up with.

 

Warning - incoming WoW comparisons/history:

 

Who remembers when they introduced resilience in WOW and the PVE raiders who were used to memorizing boss mechanics and farming content with good gear were no longer able to two-shot people in Battlegrounds? Brilliant!

 

I love PVP gear. It allows PVPers to PVP. Vanilla WoW was frustrating because bad players who dedicated hours of their lives to 40-man raids would show up in a Warsong Gulch on their one off-night of raiding and be unkillable gods with their PVE gear.

 

If you look at the posts from the PVPers our there, we want one over-arching thing - an equal playing field where competition is decided based on skill.

 

PVP specific gear helps level the field.

 

PVE is inherently a much larger time sink than PVP. You can log into the game, play a WZ or two, and be done in less than an hour. PVE takes much longer to organize and complete, which makes PVE gear that much more unattainable for casual, yet skilled players.

 

PVP gear bridges the gap between skilled players with less time who don't have time to PVE (or don't want to waste their time PVEing) and unskilled players with more time who raid 5 nights a week.

 

Reducing the grind to get the best gear also helps level the field.

 

As has been discussed ad naseum, the shorter the grind, the less the gear disparity there is, the more the competitions will be decided based on skill, not gear.

 

Skill should always win out. Without gear disparity, the chances of skill determining the outcome drastically increase. Both 1) having PVP-specific gear; and 2) keeping the grind required to obtain the PVP gear to a minium help ensure that skill is the deciding factor.

 

Sounds reasonable, right?

[Seriasx]

Lol what? I have full BM gear and I'm still in warzones or Ilum homie. Won't find me doing dailies.

 

So your not part of the crowd who needs gear rewards? Nice to meet you~

[Incendergel]

Sounds reasonable, right?

 

This isn't Utopia, no matter how hard you try.

 

1. Datacrons - lulz (have have not)

2. PvE gear will be used now in PvP (weapons, relics to name a few)

 

Still playing evenly? Nope.

[venjinze]

I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about the new guy who has no chance of having fun, the only part this change will affect for me is I'll be playing more matches that can go either way win or lose, those matches are fun, not knowing if I'm going to win or lose before the game starts is alot more fun than auto winning because of gear disparities.

 

I think removing gear will help many of the no lifers learn how to play their class, they might even gain a basic understanding of other classes and their builds, altogether it will make for better pvp.

 

Gear grind works really well in pve though

 

The 'no lifers', you act like it's hard to get gear in this game and furthermore you don't personally know any of these people , so for you to speculate and try to belittle someone about their life outside SWTOR is immature and unjustified. I hope Bioware isn't listening to people like you.

Edited March 16, 2012 by venjinze

[Rizque]

lol can't believe there are pvp guilds. This is a pve focused game.

[venjinze]

I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically and then brought up a scenario suggested by "half of these entitlement posts" that has nothing to do w/ me whatsoever.

 

I'm glad that you enjoy the current state of MMO PvP; I enjoy PvP as well, and it's all I do also. I hit BM before the changes, and I never considered it a grind because I like to PvP; what else would I have been doing? So we both like to PvP, cool. I still don't agree w/ you, though.

 

The way a "ladder" system works is that you climb it, and get matched against better opponents based on your successes (or worse opponents, if you lose). Because of the nature of a ladder system, if only the top players are awarded w/ better gear, lower-rated players WILL meet them in combat as they try to also join the ranks of high rated players.

 

It doesn't work out like "only people w/ good gear fight people w/ good gear", because then how would people in the worse gear EVER obtain better gear? That's right, by fighting the people w/ better gear while wearing their worse gear.

 

I like the way that 1.2 is set up better; it's a step in the right direction. Top rated players should have other rewards.

 

I am in total agreement that the awards announced thus far are kind of lackluster, but I don't think that a stat advantage should be the answer. Not in what is supposed to be "competitive" PvP.

 

I still don't think you fully understand, It's not a personal attack. Let's call it a friendly debate.

 

Win OR lose in 1.2 you get commedations that can be used towards War Hero gear. I'm not stating that this system is flawed. I'm against removing PvP gear from the game completely which is what most people are positioning in their posts.

[Incendergel]

The 'no lifers', you act like it's hard to get gear in this game and furthermore you don't personally know any of these people , so for you to speculate and try to belittle someone about their life outside SWTOR is immature and unjustified. I hope Bioware isn't listening to people like you.

 

The no life comment doesn't work. It is, and has been stated by the devs, entry to pvp is quicker than pve. Thus the popularity which they didn't expect.

 

Dailies: win 3 warzones, 30 armaments.

 

you get 3 armaments per game regardless of win/loss. That is 10 games played. Chances are you will play all 10 anyway in order to complete the 3 wins...lol.

 

Weekly: 9 warzone wins, 150 armaments.

 

Hmm....7 days to win 9 games and collect 150 armaments. Both of these quests no longer require you to head out to Ilum. Both of these will be done before 7 days if you do the dailies...

 

Not sure about you but I spend maybe a hour at best doing the dailies. What else do you do with your time that is so important in the game that you can't do this? Or you want it handed to you for free? Stop cybering and do some work....

[venjinze]

The no life comment doesn't work. It is, and has been stated by the devs, entry to pvp is quicker than pve. Thus the popularity which they didn't expect.

 

Dailies: win 3 warzones, 30 armaments.

 

you get 3 armaments per game regardless of win/loss. That is 10 games played. Chances are you will play all 10 anyway in order to complete the 3 wins...lol.

 

Weekly: 9 warzone wins, 150 armaments.

 

Hmm....7 days to win 9 games and collect 150 armaments. Both of these quests no longer require you to head out to Ilum. Both of these will be done before 7 days if you do the dailies...

 

Not sure about you but I spend maybe a hour at best doing the dailies. What else do you do with your time that is so important in the game that you can't do this? Or you want it handed to you for free? Stop cybering and do some work....

 

...what? Read futher back, no clue what you're talking about.

[Gadian]

We disagree. It is there, has been patched to make it easier two different ways to Tuesday. Furthermore the devs said PvP was more popular because the gear was easier to obtain. People, sheep, flock to whatever is easier. Obviously the grind as many of you are calling it wasn't so bad after all, huh?

 

If you read the OPs post, to which we are replying, we aren't complaining about the current grind (although it could be shorter) but we are opposing the OP's paradigm that PVP MUST reward gear for grinding. Just a philosophical difference between PVEers and PVPers I suppose.

 

False statement. You can play as long or little as you want and still get the gear - there was absolutely nothing standing in your way other than your own style of play. Queue WZ's inbetween quests, save valor, buy 6 bags when you reach 50 problem solved. Once 50 do the dailies and pick up the weekly. Doing the dailies each day if you could then the weekly is done on its own. You only had to win 3 games. You still only have to win 3 games. To complete the 30 kill quest play 10 games. Chances are you will need to do that many anyway to win 3....again, it is so simple even part time.

 

This is not a false statement. It is 100% a true statement. The phrase "whee bit of work," is not an objective measurement. It is a matter of degree. You dismantle your own argument when you say that it is determined by "your own style of play." So you openly admit it is a matter of degree, which you correctly pointed out is based on your style of play.

 

You just disagree with the level of degree, not the statement itself (even if you don't realize it) - perhaps so much that it made you angry enough to call anyone who plays less than you a "liar."

 

But that does not make it a false statement.

 

You really need to stop the time thing because it isn't even a factor. It is a flat out lie and you know it. I can complete 10 games in a hour easy. This game is super casual friendly - more than I've ever known.

 

Cool. That seems like an exaggeration, but I'm not going to call you a flat-out liar like you called me. It could just be because que times are longer when I play at night and the games are more competitive and thus longer.

 

I really shouldn't have responded. Your post, and this response, really don't add anything are are simply tangential to an otherwise beaten-to-death post that simply highlights the philosophical differences between PVPers and PVEers. But I couldn't resist.

[Varicite]

I still don't think you fully understand, It's not a personal attack. Let's call it a friendly debate.

 

Win OR lose in 1.2 you get commedations that can be used towards War Hero gear. I'm not stating that this system is flawed. I'm against removing PvP gear from the game completely which is what most people are positioning in their posts.

 

Oh, I think I understand now.

 

You're arguing against a completely different point (and one that I have never, ever made).

 

If you're arguing against a complete removal of PvP gear, then I guess we agree. Expertise exists so PvE heroes don't steamroll PvP players because of their legendaries, etc.

 

My stance was just that ranked WZs should not offer better stat rewards to higher rated players, because it hurts the spirit of competition that ranked WZs are trying to create.

[Gadian]

This isn't Utopia, no matter how hard you try.

 

1. Datacrons - lulz (have have not)

2. PvE gear will be used now in PvP (weapons, relics to name a few)

 

Still playing evenly? Nope.

 

Heh, if you are going to quote me, quote me in context. This is what I said:

 

"Skill should always win out. Without gear disparity, the chances of skill determining the outcome drastically increase. Both 1) having PVP-specific gear; and 2) keeping the grind required to obtain the PVP gear to a minium help ensure that skill is the deciding factor.

 

Sounds reasonable, right?"

 

If that sounds unreasonable to you, and you think gear, obtained by increased playing time, should be the deciding factor, then we just don't have the same views on PVP.

 

There really isn't much more to say.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Gadian

[venjinze]

Oh, I think I understand now.

 

You're arguing against a completely different point (and one that I have never, ever made).

 

If you're arguing against a complete removal of PvP gear, then I guess we agree. Expertise exists so PvE heroes don't steamroll PvP players because of their legendaries, etc.

 

My stance was just that ranked WZs should not offer better stat rewards to higher rated players, because it hurts the spirit of competition that ranked WZs are trying to create.

 

Cool, so we agree. I dunno man, I just noticed you quoted me a few times so i was just endeavoring my point of view.

 

I'm really just thinking that people who keep saying that anyone in full PvP gear really doesn't have any skill, it's just gear. I'm anxious for these people to get into rated, fully geared. Put that myth to sleep.

Edited March 16, 2012 by venjinze