Jederix Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Good thing pvpers are the minority and nobody cares. Pretty much this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Get out of my head man. GET OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cernow Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Are you playing PvP for the gear or for the fun? If you are playing for the fun and to prove your skills, then you shouldn't care that everyone has easier access to PvP gear. You want worthy opponents, right? Or do you just want to wave your epeen about? If you want something to reflect that you are a more experienced / dedicated / skillful PvP player than the next, that's fine. Everyone needs something to aim for. But more powerful gear should not be that thing. Different / more impressive looking gear, sure. More powerful gear, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyDroid Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 PvP obviously needs to have the same gear progression as chess. People have been playing that game for a thousand years without rage-quitting over gear progression, so the must be doing something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calitri Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hearing about droves of people quiting and disbanding guilds, because going up against people of the equilivent gear and skill for the "new grind" make me happy. If rated PvP doesn't get you exicited about warzones for being in a "PvP guild", why the hell are you even in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampylol Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I for one welcome these changes. Atleast when my guild is ranked #1 nobody can say it's our gear that got us there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaipyr Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The only people who are complaining about this system are the also-rans, the #2's, the guys who were pretty good at sports in high school but couldn't cut it in college. The people who were abused as children and are looking to take their anger out on someone weaker. ^ WIN! /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I for one welcome these changes. Atleast when my guild is ranked #1 nobody can say it's our gear that got us there. Exactly. Why even invite that kind of sentiment? Though I don't think my guild will be #1, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venjinze Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Are you playing PvP for the gear or for the fun? If you are playing for the fun and to prove your skills, then you shouldn't care that everyone has easier access to PvP gear. You want worthy opponents, right? Or do you just want to wave your epeen about? If you want something to reflect that you are a more experienced / dedicated / skillful PvP player than the next, that's fine. Everyone needs something to aim for. But more powerful gear should not be that thing. Different / more impressive looking gear, sure. More powerful gear, no. Sad thing is, most of these people in equivalent gear won't fair well in rated, and they'll be back to start more threads about how life is unfair. Bad players will still be bad, end of story. More 'powerful' gear should be given to the higher rated teams, those teams will be facing each other, not the lower rated ones, so really this whole disagreement is a waste of everyones time. If gear could activate all my skills.... oh wait it can't. Edited March 16, 2012 by venjinze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dego_Locc Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Then more power to you because you can do that today and don't need a patch. By all means get your guild, hook up with the other faction and both of you guys can go pvp with nothing on but your loin cloth. Once that is done, come back here and let me know how fun that is? Better yet to set the record straight you would first need to level 1 to 50 again and bypass all the datacrons so no one has a unfair advantage for your Utopia PvP session. Let us face the reality here. People want stuff handed to them for little to no work. They expect to be able to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained. How hard is this to understand? We've seen it in rated BG's in WoW, we have seen it in Arena's. People don't want to climb "ANY" ladder to better themselfs and use the excuse that they are out geared. Never are they saying they suck, don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc. It is always the other person is cheating, out gearing them, or just a OP class / flavor of the month. Bioware gave you everything you already wanted. 1. Remove Ilum 2. Moved Ilum dailies to warzones 3. Increased valor for first 4 medals 4. Allowed you to save 1000/1000 valor for 5 bags pre 50 5. Allowed you to purchase a bag pre 50 - in case you can't count - that is 6 bags @ 50 6. Centurion gear, champion gear, battlemaster gear Now think about this for a minute the next time you login and visit the fleet. Look at the gear vending machines / npc's and look at the various gear. Then look at the stat difference. Then do some simple math (if you can) and you will see that there isn't a huge gap which people have been telling you before. Further more, with a whee bit of effort you can actually obtain said gear super EASY now that Bioware already PATCHED IN. You just don't want to do the work. What is next - you want to remove datacrons because they give an unfair advantage? It isn't fair that I have +10 or more to my primary stats than you do? I'm at more health than you because I took the time to actually explore, google, or whatever I did in order to find them? HELLO KITTY is that way - I suggest you try that because some of us don't want your kool-aid. This^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Sad thing is, most of these people in equivalant gear won't fair well in rated, and they'll be back to start more threads about how life is unfair. Bad players will still be bad, end of story. More 'powerful' gear should be given to the higher rated teams, those teams will be facing each other, not the lower rated ones, so really this whole disagreement is a waste of everyones time. If gear could activate all my skills.... oh wait it can't. You're right, they will NEVER have to face a single lower rated team on their journey to the top. They will never be challenged by a lower-ranked team. This is exactly how rankings work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dego_Locc Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Most people who finished battlemaster get bored and stop playing that character. This is because progression is gone. People like you refuse to believe that you can have gear progression and not ruin PvP. How? Sit down for this. Have moderate progression. Similar to the difference between Champ gear and BM gear. Does someone having 2% better stats than you ruin the game? How do you deal with people having datacron stats? How do you deal with people playing different classes, do you honestly believe the classes are balanced within 2% of each other. You must not ever PvP in 10-49 where people playing the same class have different abilities. Seriously, taking progression out of an MMO is possibly the dumbest thing Bioware could do. The people who say people want progression to pawn new players are wrong, if they were right you wouldn't see people start alts when they finish BM. The whine about removing progression from an MMO is insane. The valid complaint is to not let the gear gap be a deciding factor. And this^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrestrial Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 And this^ exactly right. You should not take progression away from PvP. Imagine for example what would happen if Bioware told all the PvErs that the same gear available in operations was available to anyone doing dailies. Gear progression MAKES PvE what it is. Anyone who says otherwise isn't a raider. The tier gear leads to more difficult progression leads to new tier gear and more difficult progression. It is beyond stupid to cut out PvP progression. But ok, if PvP isn't something BW really cares about any further, thats fine. THey should just say it (contrary to everything they have posted). Why did rated battlegrounds work in early WoW? Because you had to EARN the gear. And you got titles that meant something. Now you won't have to and it makes the game far less interesting and worthwhile for earnest PvPers. The valor titles beyond Battlemaster just became completely meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmarakID Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Omg pvp is about showing your skill ang having a fun, not about getting new armor... Oh a have a new armor i played this for 60 days to get that now i can win without a skill cause i have this OP armor. Edited March 16, 2012 by Averran language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cernow Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Why did rated battlegrounds work in early WoW? Because you had to EARN the gear. And you got titles that meant something. Now you won't have to and it makes the game far less interesting and worthwhile for earnest PvPers. The valor titles beyond Battlemaster just became completely meaningless. Early WoW didn't have rated Battlegrounds, everyone was put together in the same Battlegrounds regardless of rank or gear. Rated BGs came much later, after Arena. Early WoW had a ranking system with titles and access to better gear. But that was only a measure of amount of time put in farming kills, not skill or teamplay. The higher ranks had a cap on the number of players who could achieve that rank, so it was a horrible contest of who could put in more hours than the next person. And some people put in some truly staggering hours to achieve the top slots. I guess you could say they did indeed "earn" it, but I suspect anyone with a RL job was too busy earning for real to compete. Not exactly sustainable game design. There needs to be some progression in MMO PvP, something to aim for. But these need to be status things (titles, cosmetic differences, anything that gives bragging rights) and not just ever more powerful gear. If you make it gear based, its just one never ending arms race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) exactly right. You should not take progression away from PvP. Imagine for example what would happen if Bioware told all the PvErs that the same gear available in operations was available to anyone doing dailies. Gear progression MAKES PvE what it is. Anyone who says otherwise isn't a raider. The tier gear leads to more difficult progression leads to new tier gear and more difficult progression. It is beyond stupid to cut out PvP progression. But ok, if PvP isn't something BW really cares about any further, thats fine. THey should just say it (contrary to everything they have posted). Why did rated battlegrounds work in early WoW? Because you had to EARN the gear. And you got titles that meant something. Now you won't have to and it makes the game far less interesting and worthwhile for earnest PvPers. The valor titles beyond Battlemaster just became completely meaningless. No one is taking progression out of PvP, it will have progression. Meaningful progression, not some set of gear that gives you a small advantage over other people. What do you think rankings are, exactly? You will be progressing up a leaderboard; as your skills and tactics improve, you will be fighting stronger and stronger opponents who also have improved skills/tactics. What you're really talking about is a PvE-style progression, where your character's stats need to improve in order to face stronger and stronger scripted encounters. Because these encounters are NOT DYNAMIC, the only way to make them tougher is to make the enemies hit harder/faster, etc. So you need higher stats to fight them. That's not the case in PvP progression, where your opponents actually can and do improve and change their tactics in order to counter your strategy. Edited March 16, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venjinze Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Early WoW didn't have rated Battlegrounds, everyone was put together in the same Battlegrounds regardless of rank or gear. Rated BGs came much later, after Arena. Early WoW had a ranking system with titles and access to better gear. But that was only a measure of amount of time put in farming kills, not skill or teamplay. The higher ranks had a cap on the number of players who could achieve that rank, so it was a horrible contest of who could put in more hours than the next person. And some people put in some truly staggering hours to achieve the top slots. I guess you could say they did indeed "earn" it, but I suspect anyone with a RL job was too busy earning for real to compete. Not exactly sustainable game design. There needs to be some progression in MMO PvP, something to aim for. But these need to be status things (titles, cosmetic differences, anything that gives bragging rights) and not just ever more powerful gear. If you make it gear based, its just one never ending arms race. In 'early' WoW, PvP guilds could not compete with PvE guilds because PvE gear was substantially better. If in PvE you can acquire better gear, so should you be able to in PvP if that is your gameplay preference. It's clearly the casuals who are winning the 'it's not fair' threads on this forum which is perturbing, to say the least, that bioware is listening to this crap. There's a marginal different in PvP set stats, they aren't hard to obtain either. Gear doesn't activate my skills, I do and I do this well enough to defeat people in equivalent gear. When you hit 50, the real work beings, you are't entitled to anything, stop being lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In 'early' WoW, PvP guilds could not compete with PvE guilds because PvE gear was substantially better. If in PvE you can acquire better gear, so should you be able to in PvP if that is your gameplay preference. It's clearly the casuals who are winning the 'it's not fair' threads on this forum which is perturbing, to say the least, that bioware is listening to this crap. There's a marginal different in PvP set stats, they aren't hard to obtain either. Gear doesn't activate my skills, I do and I do this well enough to defeat people in equivalent gear. When you hit 50, the real work beings, you are't entitled to anything, stop being lazy. You're completely missing the entire reason you need to obtain better gear in PvE, as opposed to PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Most people who finished battlemaster get bored and stop playing that character. This is because progression is gone. People like you refuse to believe that you can have gear progression and not ruin PvP. How? Sit down for this. Have moderate progression. Similar to the difference between Champ gear and BM gear. Does someone having 2% better stats than you ruin the game? How do you deal with people having datacron stats? How do you deal with people playing different classes, do you honestly believe the classes are balanced within 2% of each other. You must not ever PvP in 10-49 where people playing the same class have different abilities. Seriously, taking progression out of an MMO is possibly the dumbest thing Bioware could do. The people who say people want progression to pawn new players are wrong, if they were right you wouldn't see people start alts when they finish BM. The whine about removing progression from an MMO is insane. The valid complaint is to not let the gear gap be a deciding factor. Pvp doesn't start until you max out your gear. Anyone who stops playing when they cap out is not a pvper. As for moderate progression it doesn't matter. Most pvp players want to cap out as quickly as possible in gear so they can have fun. There will be all kinds of progression rewards. I don't take anyone seriously in regards to pvp who want gear progression. I have been playing online games as long as anyone here and in that entire time pvp players have always wanted to cap out gear and just fight. I don't know how anyone who doesn't like fighting humans can claim to be a pvper. Pvp is so much more compelling and dynamic then pve. I have spent years pvping in games capped with no additional form of stat increase to improve. People who claim players will stop playing without progression are right and wrong. Experienced pvp players will play to play. Thinks like rank and vanity items will be nice bonuses. Inexperienced pvp players who have primarily pved and just now have started enjoy pvp might leave but that is because ignorance and inexperience. Many of us have played in all types of pvp environments. No gear, pvp progression, pvp with a low ceiling, pve grind required. The best avenue which takes into account character development is a regular leveling system then a prestige endgame leveling system, like valor, then a low ceiling on gear acquisition and once in a while new gear sets added. With that system there is plenty to do and there is a new gear set ever 12 months or so and all other types of rewards. This is the direction they are headed in and it is the right one. The problem is some people don't like pvp that much so they want gear upgrades instead. Part of that is solo pve players gearing up in pve. I empathize with those people, I used to be one of them and I think mmorpgs have done a horrendeous job with solo player pve end game content. That being said pvp should not be degraded because of that. I want to emphasize I am not against pvp gear. In fact I want expertises impact on all pvp sets greatly increased. The bis for all pvp gear shoud come from pvp. I don't, however think it should take a long time to acquire. That is what i mean by a low ceiling. It has to be low enough so casual players can level up and gear up well before new gear sets come out. When cataclysm came out in wow I was level 85 and fully decked out in pvp gear quickly. Battlefields were silly because you could easily destroy 95% of the other players. It was not until most people got geared up that pvp got competive and enjoyable. I don't mind that kind of gear lag every 12-18 months but having it exist all the time is not good game play. You can't make the increases small enough to not matter. If you played yourself in pvp the you with the slightly better gear would win close to 100% of the time. From a selfish standpoint I am fine with people who are not driven to compete and win every warzone they enter. For pvp the other players are the content. Players who half arse it or just play for gear or medals are greatly reducing the quality of my gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhromeHawk Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Let them quit. I'd rather those type of people were not in the game to start with. Warzones need to be competative and not all about geeks who play 24/7 and have the best gear. ^ That Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 PvP obviously needs to have the same gear progression as chess. People have been playing that game for a thousand years without rage-quitting over gear progression, so the must be doing something right. There are two groups at work here though: 1) people who view it as a sport or competition 2) people who view it as a treadmill to get gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhromeHawk Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Sell your gear and send me your credits before you cry leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrestrial Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I want to clarify something I said about Wow that was in error on my part. When I said rated or ranked battlegrounds, I was referring to that time in the game when you ranked up each week to determine your particular battle title, field marshall, lieutenant commander, etc. and you were albe to purchase gear at that title or below. Obviously this was pre-arena and pre-expertise etc. It was in my opinion challenging and fun. There was a real need to win and you wanted it bad. Yes, I admit I relished it because there was a goal beyond beating nameless horde each week and getting your name on a leader board of sorts. But perhaps those types of pvp systems are gone now and will never return. A real pity in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richoshist Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I love these guys who compare PvE progression to PvP progression. PvE: Needs progression because they fight mobs with increasingly higher stats. PvP: Not the case. PvE: Gets his big mighty lightsaber/blaster and shiny gear to fight PvE mobs and so PvPers don't care when he shows up in a PvP environment with his gear because usually he gets robo-smashed by those with PvP gear due to expertise. Or best-case scenario its a fair fight, so meh. Don't bother comparing PvE to PvP, it's apples to oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 exactly right. You should not take progression away from PvP. Imagine for example what would happen if Bioware told all the PvErs that the same gear available in operations was available to anyone doing dailies. Gear progression MAKES PvE what it is. Anyone who says otherwise isn't a raider. The tier gear leads to more difficult progression leads to new tier gear and more difficult progression. It is beyond stupid to cut out PvP progression. But ok, if PvP isn't something BW really cares about any further, thats fine. THey should just say it (contrary to everything they have posted). Why did rated battlegrounds work in early WoW? Because you had to EARN the gear. And you got titles that meant something. Now you won't have to and it makes the game far less interesting and worthwhile for earnest PvPers. The valor titles beyond Battlemaster just became completely meaningless. Clearly you don't understand the fundamental differences between pve and pvp or you would never compare the two. Pve is all about progression. Pvp is about fighting other players. If you remove progression from pve nobody would play because it is not fun. Without progression lots of people will still play. If someone values progression over fighting other players they should stick to pve. I don't know of any pvp ever that was not based on players enjoying battling each other first and foremost. That could mean pvp is not for everyone and that is fine. The reality though is by improving overall balance in pvp the percentage of players who regularly pvp has skyrocketed. That relatively level and balanced playing field is of primary importance to most pvp players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 There are two groups at work here though: 1) people who view it as a sport or competition 2) people who view it as a treadmill to get gear Yeah, and the #2 group is the one threatening to leave. The question at hand is do we care? I don't think those guys are PvP'ing to PvP anyway. Why else would they view getting their full BM set at the end of PvP, instead of the beginning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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