Clearing up the facts about Pyrotech.

[Rogmar]

If they nerf the Shared Tree, at least buff Tactics/Powertech equivalent. Balance happens, but I don't want to be "Tank or non-viable".

[lJustAlexl]

Eh...I'm not sure if luck is all that's involved here. Can someone explain these Vanguard stats?

 

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/465/vanguardeffectiveness.png

 

And our team was fairly well equipped. I was in all champ gear, for example. Supercommando. Guy still hit me like a train. I can't even imagine what the light and medium armor users went through.

Edited March 10, 2012 by lJustAlexl

[MiZrYdj]

Eh...I'm not sure if luck is all that's involved here. Can someone explain these Vanguard stats?

 

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/465/vanguardeffectiveness.png

 

And our team was fairly well equipped. I was in all champ gear, for example. Supercommando. Guy still hit me like a train. I can't even imagine what the light and medium armor users went through.

 

From the looks of it the enemy team had almost 600k-700k total in healing..... and that Vanguard took full advantage of getting healed. I would also imagine there were a few other classes on the enemy team that used their debuffs which will just make a Vanguard hit even harder.

 

Look like you fought a pre-made and got owned.

[exphryl]

Eh...I'm not sure if luck is all that's involved here. Can someone explain these Vanguard stats?

 

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/465/vanguardeffectiveness.png

 

And our team was fairly well equipped. I was in all champ gear, for example. Supercommando. Guy still hit me like a train. I can't even imagine what the light and medium armor users went through.

 

Yeah, looks just like a bunch of grouping. 500K is a lot of damage for civil war, i rarely see 300k+ in matches since people are spread out. Almost seems like east and west were taken and people were fighting over middle the whole match. (Which would explain inflated numbers).

 

His build, with the protection he had, I'm assuming was a Shield/Assault (ST/Pyro) hybrid. While the single target is meh they still can spread out damage fairly well in AOE. But, it's easily healed damage also so again, inflates the opposite side which is the healing numbers.

[gravioli]

I've never hit a 5.7k crit, but my pyrotech can kick major *** when I hit all my cooldowns and get lots of railshot procs. If I don't, then I'm merely average and usually dead. Our defensive capabilities are garbage, so please do not pass the hutt ball to a pryotech.

[EternalFinality]

From the looks of it the enemy team had almost 600k-700k total in healing..... and that Vanguard took full advantage of getting healed. I would also imagine there were a few other classes on the enemy team that used their debuffs which will just make a Vanguard hit even harder.

 

Look like you fought a pre-made and got owned.

 

This kind of destroys the "they sometimes hit hard, but their average damage is not high!" argument. Given a long period of time he was able to output an insane amount of damage.

[getdownsb]

It's just poor class design. Classes that rely so heavily on procs which can result in crazy damage spikes don't make for fun pvp. It's MMO 101.

 

Pretty much this. I have a PT Pyrotech alt and it's pretty stupid. PvP is about consistency and control. Not about EPIC AR ENN GEEE YO.

 

People complaining about PT Pyros are likely still trying to figure out if they need aim or willpower. They're a glass cannon plus massive RNG. What is so difficult about that?

[MiZrYdj]

This kind of destroys the "they sometimes hit hard, but their average damage is not high!" argument. Given a long period of time he was able to output an insane amount of damage.

 

They DO hit hard, but have a long downtime to hit hard again. They DO have decent ranged damage but not as good as all other ranged classes. They DO have amazing AOE damage, and if your team was grouped up the whole time and obviously he was getting heals he had all the time in the world to lay down damage and plenty of AOE.

 

Really, it's not hard to comprehend.

 

Plus if he was the tank hybrid I'm pretty sure they get a heavy passive boost to some of their AOE damage.

[lJustAlexl]

Actually, the Vanguard was generally killing my team members before they were able to group up (they were not the best players, admittedly). He would take out one or two in a few hits and keep them respawning, sort of conveyer belt style.

 

Take note that he has the highest amount of kills in that match and the only person who comes remotely close to that number has 120k less total damage and is a full dps-specced trooper. The vanguard was the one killing. The rest were tagging occasionally with AoE and other less significant attacks.

Edited March 10, 2012 by lJustAlexl

[Rotm]

I couldn't do 15k damage over 5 GCDs with any combination of my abilities. And I'm a Sentinel. The max dps class.

 

Pyrotech is spiky as hell. Sometimes insane damage. Sometimes not. Reminds me of a class in WoW that could do similar things. (Shamans with Windfury)

 

What happened? Got nerfed. I think Pyrotechs need a bit of evening out on the ends of their damage spectrum.

 

Shamans were nerfed into worthless garbage, on a spec that was garbage to begin with no less. Regardless Sents are a sustained class, pyro spike is very similar to sniper spike. One is more reliable the other does better on armor.

[Briqs]

A skilless overpowered class posting in an attempt to keep their class at the top of the food chain.. this has never happened before. Pyrotech burst needs to be toned down, this isn't even a discussion. Anyone who disagrees is a Pyrotech or plays with one regularly. You need to step back and think about the overall health of the game instead of your own selfish desires.

[Theology]

People also dont realize that a large chunk of our damage comes from DoTs too. If i know i'm going down, i try to get Incindiery and CGC on as many people as i can. This REALLY inflates numbers on the scoreboards, even if it was garbage damage. That 500k that dude did in Civil War was the product of 1 death, pocket healers, and bad enemy players. Nothing more. Any Sorc or sniper could have done the exact same thing.

[Blurps]

If they nerf the Shared Tree, at least buff Tactics/Powertech equivalent. Balance happens, but I don't want to be "Tank or non-viable".

 

Especially considering PT/Vanguard specced for defense isn't that great to begin with in PvP. A tank Guardian/Jugg will outperform a tank PT/Vanguard any day of the week.

 

( At the moment a Kinetic specced Shadow will probably as well, but I don't expect them to stay the way they are right now. )

[theangryllama]

I play a pyro and have to call a little BS. We do do a metric crapton of damage. No it is not all wasted damage from IM and GCG.

 

However in doing that damage we are squishy... terribly terribly squishy. Like about as easy to kill as an operative thats focused squishy (their cooldowns are better than ours + HoTs lol) There in lies the balance.

 

Our 'defensive cooldowns' equate to you taking maybe a whole 3-5s longer to kill us and after that all we have is heavy armor which a large portion of damage ignores anyway.

 

No stealth, no undying rage/guarded by the force, no sprint, no knockback, no charge, no force shroud, shield probe, heals, knockdowns etc etc.

 

We have a small amount of peeling utility that honestly only gets noticed because its often pulling you into fire/acid which is a really frustrating way to get killed.

 

Think of how easily you can kill a merc in 1v1 sometime and realise that they actually have more things to prevent death than a pyro does and you'll see the reasons why we have the damage we do

Edited March 10, 2012 by theangryllama

[Rotm]

Especially considering PT/Vanguard specced for defense isn't that great to begin with in PvP. A tank Guardian/Jugg will outperform a tank PT/Vanguard any day of the week.

 

( At the moment a Kinetic specced Shadow will probably as well, but I don't expect them to stay the way they are right now. )

 

Tanks and healers rule this game and the Vanguard tank spec is outperformed in utility and survival by both Knight and Shadow. They don't even edge the Shadow for sustained damage either. The only advantage it has is the ease of off specing into a well performing dps spec that has to pad its poor utility with its goofy rng burst mechanics. Adv prot/tactics are already underperforming crap specs and people want to turn the only good dps spec into that.

[Sylvan]

The problem with them, as far as I can see is there is a certain combination of attacks (probably linked to a set build) that has no channels, or cast times. It's just instant attack after instant attack.

 

As a healer in top end gear with a lot of PvP experience, I've never come up against a class that facerolls me so quickly as Powertech. There is literally nothing I can do, short of my 4 sec stun or a lucky force wave off a ledge to stop them.

 

Do they really have 5 instant cast attacks? That is a bit over the top.

[Fdzzaigl]

Lets be honest: assault/ pyro troopers are very strong in PvP.

Especially 1vs1 you can blow most other classes sky high in a matter of seconds if you get procs & use trinkets.

 

However, assault/pyro is not the only class / spec which can put out very strong burst, Jedi Knights and sentinels in focus can put out huge numbers in aoe.

Sages / Sorcs can also put out huge aoe as well as big numbers on single targets.

The same with operatives even after the nerf, and arsenal mercs.

 

Is it balanced? Depends on who you ask and what group you have backing you up, I've faced groups that focused on me and shut me down for most of the match, and then you have the groups that leave me alone and allow me to run over 4 people before I die.

 

We're not glass cannons, but not very far from it either.

After playing a PvP tank for ages, I thank the maker that there is at least one spec for vanguards to take down healers with and at least one spec which doesn't rely on a battle of attrition every fight.

 

The problem with them, as far as I can see is there is a certain combination of attacks (probably linked to a set build) that has no channels, or cast times. It's just instant attack after instant attack.

 

As a healer in top end gear with a lot of PvP experience, I've never come up against a class that facerolls me so quickly as Powertech. There is literally nothing I can do, short of my 4 sec stun or a lucky force wave off a ledge to stop them.

 

Do they really have 5 instant cast attacks? That is a bit over the top.

 

The only channeled abilities a vanguard has are his AOE abilities and full auto.

 

What an assault vanguard will do is the following:

- Incendiary Round: a dot which deals some damage upfront and sets you on fire

 

- Assault Plastique: a timed explosive like sticky grenade with more damage and slightly boosted damage on burning targets (talents).

 

- High Impact Bolt: an instant ability which can be talented to ignore most armour (can still be defended / shielded, unlike most other abilities!), which regenerates ammo on burning targets and can be procced (reset cooldown + free) by ion pulse + talented damage boost on burning damage.

 

- Ion Pulse: an elemental instant ability which deals medium damage and can proc HIB as explained above.

 

- Stockstrike: instant smash in the face, can also proc HIB.

 

 

A shield/ tactics vanguard will use the exact same abilities (sticky grenade instead of talented Assault Plastique though), them being instant is not a problem. We are a mobile class, only using channeled (aoe) when the time is right.

Removing any of those abilities would not only hurt assault, it would destroy the other specs and PvE tanking / DPS.

 

You'll only get to destroy unguarded healers as assault (or ones that are undergeared compared to you) and even then, merc healers will probably still outheal you.

 

I think it's only natural that healers have some counters, seeing that it's almost impossible to shut them down completely otherwise. The only thing you can do is lots of burst damage.

And as said above, assault is not the only class (not by a long shot), putting out big burst or big damage.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Stenvass]

*A full DPS-speced pyro-PT gives up alot utility/survivability to be a good DPS class.

*There are several classes that actually can beat a pyro 1vs1 tankassasins, mara, good healers etc.

*Any class with DOT-cleanser can negate a large portion of pyro dmg.

*A pyro has range 30m but has to come into melee range 4-10m to blow the big burst. To get into that range they pyro has no reliable ability to capclose except walking. That leaves the Pyro as the most squishy melee range class in the game(i consider operatives more durable with restealth and heals).

*A pyro that doesnt get focused(they die quick) will sooner or later get unlucky with the railshots procs and overheat leading to abysmal dmg.

 

****Conclusion: A class with low survivability and little to no none utility that has to fight within melee range will ofc deal alot of dmg. Once in a while that pyro will get lucky and crit on 5-6 attacks in a row leading to a huge burst 13-16k, and when that dmg kills someone with little to no insight of the pyro shortcomings it will lead to forum QQ.

[Dulwaithe]

The problem with them, as far as I can see is there is a certain combination of attacks (probably linked to a set build) that has no channels, or cast times. It's just instant attack after instant attack.

 

As a healer in top end gear with a lot of PvP experience, I've never come up against a class that facerolls me so quickly as Powertech. There is literally nothing I can do, short of my 4 sec stun or a lucky force wave off a ledge to stop them.

 

Do they really have 5 instant cast attacks? That is a bit over the top.

 

All melee classes primarily use only instant attacks. As for not letting them get their burst off, you should be cleansing their dots on cooldowns and either los'ing them (best) or kiting them from outside of 10m (acceptable). If you can keep their dots off you, they will do very little damage to you. Also, if you can anticipate their burst (Thermal Detonator/Assault Plastique), then you can make sure you're topped off with a shield.

 

At least, this is what I try to do when I face pyrotechs. Well geared ones backed by their team still eat me for breakfast while bad ones are free kills.

[Turn-XGundam]

HAHAHAHAHA! Don't even try to compare Vanguards to Powertechs. Your glorious Pyro Powertech is hell alot more OP than the Vanguard counterpart. If it is not overpowered then tell me how the hell I am supposed to kill a damn Pyro Powertech alone as a Gunnery Commando. You tell me!!

 

ahh you mindless troll assault vanguard does the same damage as pyro powertech. you're a gunnery commando who probably spams grav round.

if you are smart enough to realize that you have a cleanse ability to cure the dots.

[SeloDaoC]

A pyrotech pretty much get all the cc a Merc gets, all the AoE a Merc gets including death from above + a Grapple and more shields and more mobility

 

A pyrotech shouldnt do that amount of damage they do on the move, while the enemy hes fighting have no chance to ge away due to grapple and snare on every attack.

 

A commando for example have no chance at all against a Pyrotech, there SO many dots pumping out plus the normal fire attacks and railshot.

 

Cleanse? not all can do it, and even if you do, you do no damage back, and its reapplied the second later.

 

At the same time they get alot of interupts on low cooldown.

 

If i would have been able to remake my Commando, i would have made a Vanguard Assault. They have more cc, grapple, do more damage, and have more utility and a tad mroe survivability.

Edited March 10, 2012 by SeloDaoC

[Turn-XGundam]

A skilless overpowered class posting in an attempt to keep their class at the top of the food chain.. this has never happened before. Pyrotech burst needs to be toned down, this isn't even a discussion. Anyone who disagrees is a Pyrotech or plays with one regularly. You need to step back and think about the overall health of the game instead of your own selfish desires.

 

you wanna nerf the only viable dps tree go ahead, but i want 2 defensive abilties like guarded by the force/rebuke added. i swear qq/baddies/l2d really want to kill range classes.

gunslinger/sniper are below avg, op/scoundrel are maybe a lil great to avg, BH/trooper are great but will be nerfed. after that point melee will rule pvp, not like they don't already.

[exphryl]

A pyrotech pretty much get all the cc a Merc gets, all the AoE a Merc gets including death from above + a Grapple and more shields and more mobility

 

A pyrotech shouldnt do that amount of damage they do on the move, while the enemy hes fighting have no chance to ge away due to grapple and snare on every attack.

 

A commando for example have no chance at all against a Pyrotech, there SO many dots pumping out plus the normal fire attacks and railshot.

 

Cleanse? not all can do it, and even if you do, you do no damage back, and its reapplied the second later.

 

At the same time they get alot of interupts on low cooldown.

 

If i would have been able to remake my Commando, i would have made a Vanguard Assault. They have more cc, grapple, do more damage, and have more utility and a tad mroe survivability.

 

A single interrupt on an 8 sec cooldown (6 if you spec in to AP, but by then you lose out on some pyro damage)

 

Grapple is a 45 sec cooldown, your resolve full? Knock us back (since you are a commando), blamo, you can now get away as we can't do anything about it.

 

Cleansing actually goes a long way as it potentially can make us miss out on a GCD or two for extra damage/railshot resets for lower heat. It's an easy way of making us overheat if you are smart about when you cleanse. (But then that requires keeping an eye on your debuff bar which a lot of people do not do, mainly because it's tiny and annoying to pick out what is what)

 

We also get the same defensive shield you do. I'm guessing we somehow bursted another classes trainer to death and to appease us they gave us their shields too?

 

You, as a commando, have more survivability than a Pyro PT/Assault VG. Do you even read class details before posting?

Edited March 10, 2012 by exphryl

[Ewgal]

It's just poor class design. Classes that rely so heavily on procs which can result in crazy damage spikes don't make for fun pvp. It's MMO 101.

 

It doesn't take much skill, as either the burst dmg rotation "works" or they get unlucky and it doesn't. Powertech is the RNG dps class.

[SeloDaoC]

A single interrupt on an 8 sec cooldown (6 if you spec in to AP, but by then you lose out on some pyro damage)

 

Grapple is a 45 sec cooldown, your resolve full? Knock us back (since you are a commando), blamo, you can now get away as we can't do anything about it.

 

Cleansing actually goes a long way as it potentially can make us miss out on a GCD or two for extra damage/railshot resets for lower heat. It's an easy way of making us overheat if you are smart about when you cleanse. (But then that requires keeping an eye on your debuff bar which a lot of people do not do, mainly because it's tiny and annoying to pick out what is what)

 

We also get the same defensive shield you do. I'm guessing we somehow bursted another classes trainer to death and to appease us they gave us their shields too?

 

You, as a commando, have more survivability than a Pyro PT/Assault VG. Do you even read class details before posting?

 

You grapple, stun, apply snare, we knockback, but cant use any skill while trying to get away, we cant run away becouse were snared, your back in our face again. Try to use instacast long duration stun to heall up, you use cc break, takes about 2 seconds, try to use any skill, get interupted, throw bombs or anything, but it does to little damage to outdamage your dot fire spamming, fail, and die.

 

Its to easy to lock out commandos, but that goes for pretty much all melee, pyrotech does more damage then marauders though 1v1.

Edited March 10, 2012 by SeloDaoC