Sorcerers... do they really need ALL these abilities?

[RahlLegacy]

I don't play "elves chasing trolls around" MMO ******. Doesn't change anything about what I posted because I used a term you don't like.

 

It's not that you posted a term he doesn't like. It's that you used the wrong term and don't really know what you are saying.

[SinnedWill]

*Sigh*

 

Ok.. baby steps.

 

Sorcs dont tank because they dont have any other midigation abilities for PVE

 

in PVP Bubble + Light armor + Healing + Force sprint and rebubble = great midigation.

 

As long as your are not heavily focused you can last the 20 sec to rebubble.

 

And now you know... and knowing is half the battle.

G.I. Joe.

 

Not every sorc. is heal-specced, for starters. Heals can also be interrupted with interrupts/stuns/knockbacks/knockdowns and healing can be debuffed beyond the trauma debuff even further via deadly throw to reduce incoming heals.

 

Also, heavy armor wearers aren't lacking additional defensive/survivability skills of their own, let alone abilities to regain health with certain skills. And then there are also heavy armor wearing classes with heals (merc/commando) so... seriously. How about you wear heavy armor and I'll respec to healing sorc and we both go jump in the poison pit while I have a bubble up and I try to heal off my damage from that. Oh, wait, you still win even without heals or defensive cooldowns getting used.

 

You're no longer a baby, so take larger strides. You were wrong about it being "mathematically proven" and just because you might 've had some bad experiences where a bubble sage/sorc beat you in 1v1, it doesn't mean we're better at tanking than heavy armor wearers, it just mean your GI Joe fit/spec failed for fighting a sorc/sage.

[Surgin]

compare your OP class with a deception spec'ed assassin when it comes to survivability. They also wear light armor and damage is about equal.

 

^^^^ this

[Sowwy]

Sages/sorc are not OP once people are geared. If you start removing their abilities then I think they'll be underpowered.

[Desgarden]

If anything, I as a 31 point madness sorc., think that 31 points in madness could use some attention. Our DoT's are NOWHERE NEAR on par with other classes' DoT's (particularly from pyro/van, slinger, and of course... maraud/sent), and it is impossible to maintain force to sustain our DoT's (which are weak, but the crits give me health) despite having 600 max mana and my force lightning causing me to gain 1% mana each time it deals damage. Now, I've played hybrid DPS sorc, and I'll admit that it CAN BE seen as very overpowered, but it also happens to be incredibly easy to shut down (much moreso than arsenal mercs) and even with its aoe knockback + root AND area stun to everything in melee range when bubble breaks (which can be abused by manually toggling it), it gets eaten alive by tech-based/physical-based DoT's since purge only removes force-based debuffs and they don't usually have sufficient time to heal themselves.

 

Also, I fealt quite dirty dealing 500k-800k damage in warzones where enemies didn't know to interrupt force lightning for the wrath procs and that spec seems to play similarly to Arsenal Mercs.

 

Ok, you want dots like a GS/Sniper? Of course, I mean you are at a total disadvantage. Oh wait...you have heals etc which a sniper/GS do not have AND your dots also refund health as well.

[xJeTsTaRx]

Not every sorc. is heal-specced, for starters. Heals can also be interrupted with interrupts/stuns/knockbacks/knockdowns and healing can be debuffed beyond the trauma debuff even further via deadly throw to reduce incoming heals.

 

Also, heavy armor wearers aren't lacking additional defensive/survivability skills of their own, let alone abilities to regain health with certain skills. And then there are also heavy armor wearing classes with heals (merc/commando) so... seriously. How about you wear heavy armor and I'll respec to healing sorc and we both go jump in the poison pit while I have a bubble up and I try to heal off my damage from that. Oh, wait, you still win even without heals or defensive cooldowns getting used.

 

You're no longer a baby, so take larger strides. You were wrong about it being "mathematically proven" and just because you might 've had some bad experiences where a bubble sage/sorc beat you in 1v1, it doesn't mean we're better at tanking than heavy armor wearers, it just mean your GI Joe fit/spec failed for fighting a sorc/sage.

 

Compared to a DPS class wearing heavy armor you do have more survivability just off the fact that you have much more utility. Compare your survivability to assassin deception spec, yours is 10x better. You even have more survivability then PowerTechs and they wear heavy armor, your survivability compared to medium armor is definitely higher. Not even looking at tanks because of course they tank better then you since their mitigation is a lot higher plus they get a armor buff when in tanking stance, but their damage is also no where near on par with yours. The damage to survivability ratio on sorc's is pretty high up there, especially for a dps class the off heals help out with that a lot as well.. The difference that kills me is the survivability of any sin without dark charge vs the survivablity of sorcs any spec, there is a huge gap there. You even have more survivability darkness tree sins with dps spec and there have been people crying about them lately.

 

PS: even without the stun after bubble you still easily can survive till your next bubble is up. This being true even with 2 people focusing you, although chances of surviving till your next bubble of course go lower a bit.

Edited March 8, 2012 by xJeTsTaRx

[Monterone]

Has anybody mentioned that they wear light armour yet?

 

I mean, it's not like non tank heavy armour mitigation is roughly 30% while light is roughly 20%. Luckily they get a plethora of well, everything, to compensate them.

 

But its ok, they wear light armour.

 

So much hate and anger. You sure you shouldn't come over to the dark side?

 

I'm a full BM sorc, dps Madness spec. I have around 18% armor.

 

My guildie and PvP buddy Immortal Jugg, has ~40% armor and ~54% shield.

 

Try your made up numbers again.

 

 

Edit: And the bubble is the only instant heal we get. Other classes have it too. But it seems people just have the difficulty grasping the mechanic and hate seeing people take no damage.

 

I would be very much ok with making the bubble into an actual, instant 3k heal on a 20 sec timer. At least then it could crit for 5k+. But then, of course, they would have to lower the cast times of the rest of our heals since our heals were given LONG cast times, while the bubble soaks up a few k damage - that's the sorc healer mechanic, bubble, long heal, channeled heal. You lose the bubble, heals must come off quicker then. I'd be ok with being a quick cast, mobile healer. Bring it on.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Monterone

[Calista_ZK]

Compared to a DPS class wearing heavy armor you do have more survivability just off the fact that you have much more utility. Compare your survivability to assassin deception spec, yours is 10x better. You even have more survivability then PowerTechs and they wear heavy armor, your survivability compared to medium armor is definitely higher. Not even looking at tanks because of course they tank better then you since their mitigation is a lot higher plus they get a armor buff when in tanking stance, but their damage is also no where near on par with yours. The damage to survivability ratio on sorc's is pretty high up there, especially for a dps class the off heals help out with that a lot as well.. The difference that kills me is the survivability of any sin without dark charge vs the survivablity of sorcs any spec, there is a huge gap there. You even have more survivability darkness tree sins with dps spec and there have been people crying about them lately.

 

PS: even without the stun after bubble you still easily can survive till your next bubble is up. This being true even with 2 people focusing you, although chances of surviving till your next bubble of course go lower a bit.

 

Lets's see- speaking as BM sage AND darkness (tank or dark charge) shadow here- should I start listing ALL of the things that a sin has that I DON't get?

 

Let's see- force shroud , stealth, all of the skills that mitigate damage which I don't get as a sage.... hmm. really not a bad deal at all. My survivability is fine thank you, and I realize that you are discussing DPS spec sins- but even so- IF you run that spec you will still take down a DPS sage.

 

The survivability of a DPS sage is often due to kiting/ running away WITHOUT killing - unlike a shadow.

[Puppup]

compare your OP class with a deception spec'ed assassin when it comes to survivability. They also wear light armor and damage is about equal.

 

Stealth

[Labowski]

Knockbacks, roots, stuns, sprints, CC AND bubble?

 

Are all of these really necessary???

 

I am a soc and i agree that if a soc is specced for PVP it can be a little much.

 

But as i am PVE i am not PVP specced.

 

 

the knockback plus the root has to have 2 skill points to be effective. i don't have it because useless in a raid

 

bubble is good but the bubble blind has to have a skill point again i don't have because useless in a raid

 

so really i am left with a knockback, a cc (everone has), the force pull thing (only good in hutball),

 

if you are wondering how to take down a SI or mirror use interrupt lightning. it is our main attack and we depend on it for a proc.

 

I have an operative and it makes the SI look a little like a faceroll i agree.

 

but if you go against a si with full pvp spec then yeah he has some pretty good stuns and escapes.

 

but look at my operative

 

has flash bang which stuns up to 5 people in 5 meters, a cc, slice which roots, sever tendon slow you by 50%, debilitate stuns,

[navido]

So much hate and anger. You sure you shouldn't come over to the dark side?

 

I'm a full BM sorc, dps Madness spec. I have around 18% armor.

 

My guildie and PvP buddy Immortal Jugg, has ~40% armor and ~54% shield.

 

Try your made up numbers again.

 

 

Edit: And the bubble is the only instant heal we get. Other classes have it too. But it seems people just have the difficulty grasping the mechanic and hate seeing people take no damage.

 

I would be very much ok with making the bubble into an actual, instant 3k heal on a 20 sec timer. At least then it could crit for 5k+. But then, of course, they would have to lower the cast times of the rest of our heals since our heals were given LONG cast times, while the bubble soaks up a few k damage - that's the sorc healer mechanic, bubble, long heal, channeled heal. You lose the bubble, heals must come off quicker then. I'd be ok with being a quick cast, mobile healer. Bring it on.

 

 

Ok first of all NO other classes have bubble, no other classes have anything even LIKE bubble. Please don't spread lies. Bubble is already a 3.5k heal on a 2 sec CD (Spec'd) 5 sec unspec'd that you can cast on EVERYONE in a WZ with the ONLY limitation being the lockout (20 secs, 17 with PvP 2 piece) and make your cast times shorter? Are you kidding? You have a 1.5 sec cast and a 2.5 sec cast that's 1.5 after you cast your hot which is not only one of the high heal/cost heals in the game it also grants as armor buff.

 

Edit: I don't even think Sorc/Sage needs a nerf, not at all what I'm getting at. I think Scoundrel/Op and to an extent Commando/BH needs to be raised to Sage/Sorc level as most content seems to be tuned to that level of healing/utility. Don't play the woah is me card as a sage. At the end of the day you have the MOST tools to play with and have the MOST options to deal with any given situation.

Edited March 8, 2012 by navido

[DarthSponge]

wouldnt be a force weilder without abilities now huh.......

[Monterone]

Did someone really say Sorcs gave more survivability than Assassins?

 

I'm a BM sorc, I also play a deception Sin. I by FAR have more fun playing the Sin in PvP, it has more survivability, more CC than sorc (2 more), STEALTH, and awesome burst damage.

 

I know how sorcs/sages play so I eat them for breakfast regularly. I spend more than half the warzone in stealth and I still do more damage on my Sin than on my sorc, in less than half the time in action. I can do back to back 5k crits if everything is set up right and then disappear.

 

On the sorc I can win most of the 1v1 fights but I know they will be a true fight. I play my sorc well, I use all my tools and my heart still pumps when starting a 1v1, because sooooo many things can go wrong, useful ability interrupted, bubble burst through too quickly etc... on the Sin I KNOW I will win, much less heart thumping. If you play your Sin well, you can keep the opponent pretty much permanently controlled and finish them off quickly, before vanishing. If under pressure, I vanish and look for a new target or a different approach. I am a GOD as a ball carrier in Huttball.

 

Quick kills coupled with stealth and defensive cool downs FAR surpass the survivability of a 20sec CD bubble.

[-Alma-]

 

bubble makes up for our low hp pools and low dmg mitigation

 

 

Id take that low cd bubble over marauder medium + mercenary heavy armor any day, as that bubble is far more useful due to its low cd.

[navido]

I am a soc and i agree that if a soc is specced for PVP it can be a little much.

 

But as i am PVE i am not PVP specced.

 

 

the knockback plus the root has to have 2 skill points to be effective. i don't have it because useless in a raid

 

bubble is good but the bubble blind has to have a skill point again i don't have because useless in a raid

 

so really i am left with a knockback, a cc (everone has), the force pull thing (only good in hutball),

 

if you are wondering how to take down a SI or mirror use interrupt lightning. it is our main attack and we depend on it for a proc.

 

I have an operative and it makes the SI look a little like a faceroll i agree.

 

but if you go against a si with full pvp spec then yeah he has some pretty good stuns and escapes.

 

but look at my operative

 

has flash bang which stuns up to 5 people in 5 meters, a cc, slice which roots, sever tendon slow you by 50%, debilitate stuns,

 

 

Please don't compare the toolkit of a Sage/Sorc to that of a Scoundrel/Op

 

An AoE MEZ (Not stun) on a 1 min CD

 

A single target stun (45 sec CD 30 sec if it's spec;d)

 

Dodge 1 min cd 3 sec duration (only for physical "white" dmg)

 

Shield 45 sec CD absorbs roughly 2.5k dmg

 

Vanish (3 mins, 2 mins spec'd in Scrapper/Concealment) also if not spec'd into doesn't allow healing done or received for 10 secs making it useless for healers

 

A snare that ONLY roots (for 3 secs though it feel like less) if spec'd into in the

Scrapper/Concealment tree (12 sec CD 10 meter range)

 

And an opener that stuns once again only spec'd into the Scrapper/Concealment tree (must be stealth and behind target)

 

10m interrupt

 

 

Sages have:

 

AoE knockback (20 sec CD) if spec'd can also root

 

30m ranged stun on 1 min CD

 

150% speed spring (30 sec, 20 if spec'd)

 

Bubble 3.5k geared and spec'd (5 sec cd, 2 sec spec'd cd)(20 sec lockout 17 with 2 piece)(can be spec'd to mez when broken)

 

30m ranged snare (not sure on the CD, believe it's 12 secs also)

 

Snare on telekinetic throw

 

Lift (single target mez) 1 min CD (spec'd is instant cast)

 

Friendly target pull (also not sure on the CD of this)

 

30m interrupt

 

So again, please don't compare the toolkits, there are many MANY great thread about the pure numbers of each (Where the sage/sorc also has the edge) that I won't go into that. Just in toolkit and options alone the 2 are not even close

Edited March 8, 2012 by navido

[fungihoujo]

Knockbacks, roots, stuns, leaps, in combat stealth AND immunity to damage?

 

Are all of these really necessary???

 

Ya, I dunno why marauders have all those things either, does seem a bit OP, too bad other classes don't also have several things to their advantage when you compare them to each other.

[Fidopro]

they should give half of their utility to operatives/snipers

[fungihoujo]

they should give half of their utility to operatives/snipers

 

Sure, and ops/snipers should hand over half their burst and the ability to either stealth or become immune to CC for long periods of time.

[_DaGreat]

I'm dps sorc, usualy at or near top of dmg chart (and yes ahead of most othr dps sorc)

 

My interupt is most always on cd cos I'm useing it evry chance I got... Luv 2 interupt hls, tracer, grav, tk throw, and yes force litening.

 

Meantime my own force litening hasn't been interupted (xcept by cc) in the last 5 days of wz's lol

 

Am I just that lucky? or are most ppl on pvp forum qqing baddys who got lots of time to make nerf posts, but not to think on how to play this gm corectly

 

Yea I just told u to l2p... And I just told u the truth

 

What is an interrupt?

 

...signed Pyro Merc

[Culdor]

Knockbacks, roots, stuns, sprints, CC AND bubble?

 

Are all of these really necessary???

 

You forgot heals.

[Dego_Locc]

add lightning to that and they have no other skills. Slightly above the skill level of a merc, SLIGHTLY.

 

And a buncha nasty dots, half of which are instant casts and can be casted while moving....

[Dego_Locc]

Ya, I dunno why marauders have all those things either, does seem a bit OP, too bad other classes don't also have several things to their advantage when you compare them to each other.

 

mara's don't have a knockback. AND their stealth and resist damage only last for 5 seconds. on an over 2 min cooldown. Might save us from death for one small fight, but chances are we are dead the next time we are in a harry situation.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[thehod]

when everyone is equally pvp-geared where ops/scoundrel healers excel at - especially with their mobility.

 

Thats usually not the case in 50s if there is a huge disparity of BM geared vs non.

 

 

If the Sorc/Sage is not OP, how come I see at least 3-6 in most WZ matches?

 

Also heavy armor means nothing vs internal or elemental damage + sorc debuff and Mercs/Commandos dont have an interrupt.

Edited March 8, 2012 by thehod

[Monterone]

Ok first of all NO other classes have bubble, no other classes have any even LIKE bubble. Please don't spread lies. Bubble is already a 3.5k heal on a 2 sec CD (Spec'd) 5 sec unspec'd that you can cast on EVERYONE in a WZ with the ONLY limitation being the lockout (20 secs, 17 with PvP 2 piece) and make your cast times shorter? Are you kidding? You have a 1.5 sec cast and a 2.5 sec cast that's 1.5 after you cast your hot which is not only one of the high heal/cost heals in the game it also grants as armor buff.

 

Edit: I don't even think Sorc/Sage needs a nerf, not at all what I'm getting at. I think Scoundrel/Op and to an extent Commando/BH needs to be raised to Sage/Sorc level as most content seems to be tuned to that level of healing/utility. Don't play the woah is me card as a sage. At the end of the day you have the MOST tools to play with and have the MOST options to deal with any given situation.

 

You misread my post. I din't say other classes had bubble, please read again -- it says instant heal. Other classes do have an instant heal/

 

Sorc bubble is an instant heal, nothing more. It counts for healing, not protection.

 

As I already explained, it is there to create a time buffer while the longer cast heals are being cast. And once again I'll say -- I'd be ok with making the bubble into an actual instant heal as other classes have, but they would have to lower the cast times of other heals since there is not a protective bubble to allow for long casts.

 

This would make for a more mobile healer, I'm ok with that.

[rzrknight]

do BH need all their skills? Guess so also.

 

Every class got their skill list mate , to take from one means to take skills from ALL classes.