But I'm a goon!!!! You can't hold that against me forever! Wish you weren't heading out so soon. Hopefully we can get to 55 and get a few games in before you leave .

Sifu, some click and keyboard turn montages, and maybe a little PD-SS hate and it'd be KV all over again! And yes they drug me back too (though someone took my name, anybody know this supposed "Brander" as I've now become Brander'KV)

The issue isn't with UR taking the DMG you take down to zero... the issue with this ability is MUCH more complex than looking at UR in a vacuum. Right now Sent/Mar is one of if not the best melee DPS in the game. They have all the tools to dominate a game... 6 sec interrupt (which locks out the ability for 4 seconds.... most heals have a 2+ sec cast time.... see the issue?) 15 sec gap closer (12 spec'd) Fantastic single target DMG (as it should be from a DPS only AC) An AoE mez (I know they aren't the only ones) 4 second stun (You can't say you are a DoT based class then complain about a stun that not only stuns but ticks along with your DoTs) Amazing group utility for a DPS class because no matter what you say the ability to throw out a group wide sprint can at times be game breaking A snare, plus a snare built into your DPS rotation and you're min distance for charge is increased... in other words how are you being kited by anything that isn't a Vanguard/PT Somehow everyone seems to forget a heal debuff that now due to BioWare's infinite wisdom can no longer be cleansed (IMO biggest buff Sent/Mara got in 1.2, at least against good healers/teams) Plus a <30% execute Then you go to the defensive CD's which a pure DPS class should have some oh $%#@ buttons, however this is where Sent/Mara gets just a touch out of hand... not nerf them to the ground OP... but tweak them just a touch. This is where UR needs to be looked at... and honestly all that needs to be done is change it to where they can't be healed when they use it... fixed problem solved, It then becomes the OH $&%* button you all say it is when you're 1v1, and it lets you're healer catch up (There is this thing called pre casting that would up the skill in this game substantially IE: UR has 2 seconds left my heals takes 2.34 seconds to cast I should start warming it up) in team play which is where the game should be balanced.

First of all thank you for the response, the wave of developer posts recently has been quite refreshing I must admit. Secondly "worthless" was not the right way to describe what I was trying to say and I appologize. What I am getting at is more of a PvP issue as that's the side of the game I prefer (Though it applies to both PvE and PvP). You have said rated WZ's will have two sets of gear, both with the same stats but one with a different look than the other which will require a rating. Now as a PvPer that wants to push for that rating and for that gear I would liket o be able to wear it as BiS but that won't be possible as it doesn't have an augment slot and there is currently no way to add one to an item. I'm not upset at all about needing to go an extra step to have the BiS top tier gear, I just wish there was a way to keep the crafting community useful as well as allow us to wear the PvP gear that required a rating without having to sacrifice stats to do so. Anyways, again I'm very happy to see more communication between the dev team and the player base. It can only lead to good things.

Only having the Augment slot on crit craft orange gear makes top tier PvP and PvE gear worthless as now to be BiS you need the Augment slot. So while yes they allow you "more choice" you really don't as you MUST have a crit crafted set.

This issue doesn't only apply to PvE and gear hunters. For PvP you have already said there with be War Hero gear which you gain through ranked WZ comms and there will be another set with the same stats but look a little different which will require a rating. For those of us who PvP and look forward to getting something for attaining a higher rank we won't be able to use that set as it won't have the extra slot for stats.... I think there are many ways to go about this, personally I was thinking you could make the higher level PvE raid boss dropped crafting mats to be BoE not BoP. That way if you could clear that content you can farm your own mats and find a crafter to make it, if you can't you could just pay for it to be done. Either way you get the slot. My two credits, I really hope they allow some way to get a slot otherwise the top tier gear the artist spent time making won't ever be seen.

Let Alacrity works with HoT's. Also when there are 2 HoT's stacked on a target the chance for UH/TA should double as well to make up for the cost of casting them.

Ok fair enough, however when I post on the PvP forums I do expect a level of common sense towards playing a class. Now I must say all of the Sage/Sorc's on my server that PvP with any sort of consistency all play the hybrid DPS spec as it's really the best spec for the class due to the top tiers and 31 point talent being fairly awful. As well as the fact you don't drop anything to pick up most all the great talents in both trees. Also being in a PvP guild and having PvP in MMO's for the better part of the last 6 years or so the people I play with are serious Min/Max'ers as well as myself, so yes I did make assumptions that we were talking the hybrid DPS spec in this thread as it's the only spec that could even be thought of in an "OP" manner (even though I still don't think it is, I think the healer is more powerful than the other two by a wide margin but honestly Sage/Sorc can put up the numbers but really they aren't top tier DPS, they are however top tier support with nice sustained damage. When paired with a good burst class they excell) as both other trees spec'd all the way to 31 are lackluster and not worth posting about.

As I said in the post to begin with if you are talking DPS spec they have the root, you know a Sage/Sorc that doesn't play the Hybrid DPS Build? Right because saying "Stopped reading" because of one line in a post full of thoughts is such a nice and respectful way to respond. Don't jump in to throw stones one way.

Let me try again as reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit. If IF we are talking about DPS Sage/Sorc ( which is what you were arguing isn't OP) we can assume they are hybrid spec'd as the top tiers and 31 points talents in BOTH trees leave much to be desired. Now if we assume they are decent at PvP we can assume they know a good talent when they see one, as such they will spend 7 points in lightning/TK to grab the 9% reduction to force cost talent (3 points) 100 more force (2 points) and 20% better shields (2 points) so now all our friendly Sage/Sorc has to do is spend 5 more points to have a root. Please explain to me how ANY hybrid DPS Sage/Sorc won't spend 5 points (3 of which are very helpful to DPS) to have a 100% AoE root? So really you are being petty and instead of having a thought out discussion you tried to bow out with a snarky remark that holds no weight or baring. Saying Sage/Sorc doesn't pick up the root as DPS when they already spend 7 points in the tree because they'd have to spend FIVE MORE...is a ridiculous excuse. That's like saying healing Sage/Sorc's don't all have a 2 sec CD on Force Armor because it's a tier 3 talent. Just because you have to spend points to get it doesn't mean you don't have it. Also most people here that are saying "Sage/Sorc" are OP would love to have the CHANCE to spec into half the stuff your class gets much less be given the rest.

^^^^^^This, silence and then random outbursts like this do nothing but destroy the community perception of the Dev team. Acknowledgement is a very powerful motivator and seeing as how this is an MMO most people here are driven by it. A simple response to a well thought out thread with helpful feedback would have been very constructive and gone miles with the healing community as a whole. It's a shame really.

I actually don't disagree with you completely. My point through this entire thread has been the difference in toolkits for healers between Sage, Scoundrel, and Commando. The DPS spec while I'm surprised they haven't broken up the hybrid (They did it to shadows) I don't think it's THAT insane. It does put up insane numbers though...but that's more through quake and TK wave procs into big groups. I do have to disagree with the "no defensive CD's" argument at least from a Scoundrel's point of view I'd trade my 1 min CD 3 sec duration dodge of "white" damage and my 45 sec CD 2.5k absorb "shield" for bubble (17 sec with 2 piece) sprint (30 secs as healer) and AoE knockback (20 secs) anyday. The Seer tree and the fact that you don't honestly have to put more than 2 points into the tree to be "useful" as a healer and only really need 16 to be highly effective is my issue. I play with a Seer/Balance hybrid that in Cent gear can do close to 300k/300k and while I understand that isn't the norm I know on my lowbie 38 Sage I've had 260k/200k games. Using the "If we get focused" argument isn't really as that great as all healers and to be honest ranged turret classes (Slinger, Grav hero) suffer from these same issues (some might even say more)

I'm still astounded by the fact that this is the thread he chose to post on, no offense to the OP honestly I don't do the numbers thing, I just can't believe he wouldn't post of one of the discussion threads of which there are MANY in the Scoundrel, Op, and healing forums. I'm not even talking about an ongoing dialogue with him in the thread (As nice as that would be I've pretty much given up hope on that one) just a simple "Hey we are watching this thread, keep the ideas flowing we enjoy the community feedback" would have meant the WORLD to the small community of Scoundrel/Op's that honestly at this point are just looking for a bone that the Dev team even knows we are still here. I don't think I've ever seen a post like this in any other class thread and it really doesn't help the smallest population class grow for new players to see that kinda of Dev response to us. Anyways GZ I really hope you can make it to the healer forums and at least let us know you are reading, heck maybe even open a dialogue with some of us. Most of us just want a little communication between the Dev team and the playerbase that isn't random blogs and Q&A.

Here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332481 This is a link to a thread showing with numbers (I know they are scary) showing how the Sage outheals the other two healer in PURE RAW healing. Pleas do me a favor and play either of the two classes and come back and tell me you still think Sage/Sorc "have it tough" One more time to hopefully make it stick. Scoundrels and Commandos are not useless, they are not broken, they are underpowered and in almost every situation you are better off having a Sage.

Please do tell how this is BS? No the raw healing numbers aren't from under geared people going against geared Sage/Sorc. Let me make this easy, your numbers are BIGGER than the numbers that a Scoundrel or Commando puts up. That means when you cast a heal it heals for MORE than anyone else... you understand that right? You mean you can't beat a team all by yourself? You need guard...and taunt...and peels? You don't think other healing classes need this? Really? This is about when you DO have those things you have more options available to you for a given situation than the other two have. >>>>>>>>>>Same gear, same skill, same situation the Sage/Sorc is ALWAYS going to come out ahead of the Scoundrel or Commando. THAT IS THE POINT <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Once again if you will go reread my post I am NOT calling for a Sage/Sorc nerf. What I am trying to explain to you is having all the CC, Utility, and healing you could ever ask for and then saying your class is fine (which it honestly is, everyone else just needs to be brought up to that point) and everyone else needs to L2P is crazy... It's easy to stand on the top and look down at other people, try taking a step back and admitting you have a ton of toys in your toolkit where other people's are lacking.

I do have a sage so I'd very much like you to tell me how my response is so "wrong" Whirlwind fills the bar the EXACT amount that every other 8 second mez fills it, don't complain about how utility that works like other peoples. I'm not arguing about huttball AT ALL, I'm arguing in almost EVERY instance a sage can do the job better than a commando or scoundrel in the same place. Period. Better heals, more utility, and ranged CC. This also isn't an issue of "I don't have that so they can't either" this is an issue of one ONE class having more raw healing power, more utility, more CC, and more toys to deal with a situation. I don't want all your toys. I'd just like to have SOMETHING that Scoundrels excel out healing wise. And believe me I play a Scrapper DPS (And a Sawbones healer) and a dang good at both. I don't have an issue killing Sages, or Commandos, or Scoundrels for that matter. This isn't an argument about if DPS can kill a healer. The simple fact is the healing classes are not on par with each other, they aren't even close.

Are you OP? I don't know that it's so much that you are OP as it is the other classes are under balanced. Do me a favor and take a step back and quit playing the "woah is me" card and look at what OTHER healers have to deal with, what limited toolkits they have.... you yourself are complaining about TOO MUCH utility... TOO MANY tools.

You have a stun... You have a single target mez... Your TK throw snares.... You have force slow, you have an AoE knockback Seriously why do sages pretend if they aren't Spec'd hybrid they can't CC and if they aren't Spec'd healing they are useless healers... 2 point in healing and you can put up 100k in a WZ more if you wanted to. Don't play the "oh he's taking about the 31/31/32 sage" we aren't

You must be kidding me, no other instant heal comes CLOSE to bubble in terms of healing, not to mention it can NEVER overheal as it "absorbs" damage... Your cast times are not long by any remote stretch of the imagination. Scoundrel/ops heals is 2 seconds all the time everytime no matter what. You already have a 1.5 second cast and with your hot your nuke is ALSO 1.5 second cast. Both of which are faster than the 2.0 second cast so no, at no point in the near future do sages need to be compensated for ANY changes to their healing

Please don't compare the toolkit of a Sage/Sorc to that of a Scoundrel/Op An AoE MEZ (Not stun) on a 1 min CD A single target stun (45 sec CD 30 sec if it's spec;d) Dodge 1 min cd 3 sec duration (only for physical "white" dmg) Shield 45 sec CD absorbs roughly 2.5k dmg Vanish (3 mins, 2 mins spec'd in Scrapper/Concealment) also if not spec'd into doesn't allow healing done or received for 10 secs making it useless for healers A snare that ONLY roots (for 3 secs though it feel like less) if spec'd into in the Scrapper/Concealment tree (12 sec CD 10 meter range) And an opener that stuns once again only spec'd into the Scrapper/Concealment tree (must be stealth and behind target) 10m interrupt Sages have: AoE knockback (20 sec CD) if spec'd can also root 30m ranged stun on 1 min CD 150% speed spring (30 sec, 20 if spec'd) Bubble 3.5k geared and spec'd (5 sec cd, 2 sec spec'd cd)(20 sec lockout 17 with 2 piece)(can be spec'd to mez when broken) 30m ranged snare (not sure on the CD, believe it's 12 secs also) Snare on telekinetic throw Lift (single target mez) 1 min CD (spec'd is instant cast) Friendly target pull (also not sure on the CD of this) 30m interrupt So again, please don't compare the toolkits, there are many MANY great thread about the pure numbers of each (Where the sage/sorc also has the edge) that I won't go into that. Just in toolkit and options alone the 2 are not even close

Ok first of all NO other classes have bubble, no other classes have anything even LIKE bubble. Please don't spread lies. Bubble is already a 3.5k heal on a 2 sec CD (Spec'd) 5 sec unspec'd that you can cast on EVERYONE in a WZ with the ONLY limitation being the lockout (20 secs, 17 with PvP 2 piece) and make your cast times shorter? Are you kidding? You have a 1.5 sec cast and a 2.5 sec cast that's 1.5 after you cast your hot which is not only one of the high heal/cost heals in the game it also grants as armor buff. Edit: I don't even think Sorc/Sage needs a nerf, not at all what I'm getting at. I think Scoundrel/Op and to an extent Commando/BH needs to be raised to Sage/Sorc level as most content seems to be tuned to that level of healing/utility. Don't play the woah is me card as a sage. At the end of the day you have the MOST tools to play with and have the MOST options to deal with any given situation.

True, except for one small tiny little detail. After 60 our regen goes to 3, the tooltip SAYS 4 but we only gain 3 energy per tick... Our "free diagnostic scan requires FOUR talent points to do that, just FYI and the energy regen from it is laughable, what does your hammershot do? Add stacks to get your best CD back? Trade you. Look I'm not here to argue Commando Vs Smuggler (hahaha cute) this is a talk about Smuggler/Op healing and the poor state it's in right now.

I've always said that Scoundrel/Op's dodge ability should make them immune to knockbacks/pulls. As the only class in the game with no gap closer either positive (Life grip/charge/sprint) or negative (knockback/pull) they should have a short duration immunity to these (Shadow/Assassins get this in the form of resilience which makes them immune to force and tech... so all knockbacks, roots, stuns, pulls AND some of the harder hitting DPS abilities at the same time) It's a 1 min CD, only applies to "auto attack" dmg and would add some "skill" in the knockback game. In that will this person notice the giant green bubble around me and wait 3 seconds to knock me back? Or are they going to hit it anyways. I've also toyed with the idea of letting bubble have a sprint component added to it (not the crappy talent that doesn't work) of say 100% speed for the duration which makes it slower than Con/Inq sprint but last a touch longer. Would help both the healers for an escape and give the DPS a gap closer. Also, and I know I'm kinda jumping all over the place here but the thoughts just kinda run along sometimes, having stealth as a healer subtract from what you can do because it takes up "points" when building the class is so unbelievable short sighted... as the "stealth" healing class we should have a few things A) A very large, nuke, ZOMG heal OUT OF STEALTH just like the DPS opener, give us a reason to stealth aside from "hiding" from the big bad DPS B) Vanish means we can't heal or be healed for 10 seconds as the healer.... whichever DEV put this in the game with no way for a healer to spec out of it.... I dislike you. Seriously you can't call vanish a "survival" CD when it means we can't do what we've spec'd to do! /endrant

AHHH right this is true and a good point I'll add to the post.

I did mean Commando and that has been fixed and I didn't add the DR shield because it can't be cast on others