If Dps Maur is greater than Dps Jug...

[Zasekis]

When my guild was working on NM back in january (we were some of the first to down NM Soa and killed HM soa pre 1.1), we ran a number of tests on various world bosses (read: not just one) with our most geared players. I was a vengeance juggernaut for most of these tests though I did spec rage on occasion to see how it fared relative to the other specs.

 

It's a common myth that marauders "completely outpace" juggernaut dps. Vengeance parsed for roughly 1700 sustained DPS (I don't have access to the spreadsheet anymore sadly) and our annih marauder was at roughly 1730 DPS). Barring our snipers parses, we were the top DPS by a significant margin (we had two BH DPS that rotated, a sorc and an assassin) All of us were in well-optimized rakata gear (not fully optimized, true, but in very good shape regardless).

 

The net verdict was that ALL DPS Classes in the game are within 5-10% overall dps of each other. There's no reason to NOT take a vengeance juggernaut if there's room for the guy and you like him as the net DPS loss is next to nothing.

 

I am glad you did this so there is at least some fact based information in this entire thread.

 

I like what bioware has done, in that every class can compete for straight up dps, but the thing that makes each dps class unique is "what else can you do". DPS Juggs have no sustainable CC, no threat dump, very little in the way of AoE. A juggs strong suit is single target DPS, damage mitigation and mob "control". Much like a Marauder's added utility is raid enhancement buffs, a Sniper has a raid shield, a dps sorc can aoe, heal and bubble so on and so forth.

 

My main is a full rakata geared sorc DPS. Having cleared all NM content for weeks now, I can say that my fully columi geared Jugg has very strong dps, and doing a NM mode with him instead of my sorc would be a small dps loss. With full rakata he would easily be on par with my sorc.

[SavageBrute]

LOL --- man this guy makes me laugh

 

 

ur lol makes me lol, cuz u know its true! Respect the Mars we are da best!

[Zasekis]

2 marauders atleast w/ my itemization(530 melee bonusdmg) is out dpsing sins/snipers/bh full rakata geared.Ev counsil im done around 20sec ahead of everyone. The reason why is cuz we have unlimited UNLIMITED rage which means we dps 100% of the time. My normal burst rotation can net me around 15k dmg w/o dots applied. Im expected to sit on every boss 100% of the time because of my dmg output which also means im bres priority over everyone else except heals/tanks.

 

This entire arguement is colosally Invalid. First of all, if you have ever played or talked to a dps jugg with the 4pc bonus, it is almost impossible to run out of rage unless you are terrible. so your "we dps 100% of the time" arguement is so fail it's laughable.

 

Secondly, just because you finish first in EV council in your raid, does not mean that happens to every marauder in every raid. In my raid our full rakata mara, and full rakata merc BH usually finish within a few seconds of each other either way... sadly a lot of times our BH healer finishes first but we all know the healer guys have minimal HP.

 

Also, congrats on being Bres priority. On my sorc, my Bres priority is the person that is dead... if 2 people die at once, you are probably gonna wipe.

[Veeius]

There would be little to no point in taking a Marauder over a juggernaut if our damage was the same because surprise surprise during the act of raiding people occasionally have to leave and if say one of those people is a tank and you find yourself needing another tank well one of your DPS Juggernauts when dual spec is here can simply change to tank spec and Rakata gear isn't exactly rare, my Broonmark is rolling around in full Rakata right now.

 

....I love how people use this excuse w/o saying "oh, but now you're down a dps, maybe a GOOD dps."

 

Are you implying that it's easier to find a "pure" dps than a "hybrid" ? If so, then that sounds like there's a population imbalance, too many pures, that sounds like there's a problem playing hybrids, that sounds like bw should increase hybrid dps.

 

 

....get it?

 

btw, my original comment stands. I dps ops, I tank flashpoints. I ***NEVER*** see "lfm dps, it's alway "lf1m tank." Break my toy and my response will not be to dutifully service your needs with my crippled "hybrid, but I really mean tank because I can't competitively dps" class. Instead, I'll shelf my jugg, and only play my mara.

 

Oh, also, if ALL you have is dps, then you don't really need any superflous crap that isn't 100% about your own personal dps, so, I'll take bloodlust/stealth/heals/cc and you can JUST have dps, kk?

[CaptainDil]

In my guild its standard thinking that Mara dps is far better than Jug Dps. To be honest this seems based on feelings and no hard evidence.

 

Today in guild chat there erupted a argument once again on this much debated subject but this time with a twist.

 

Our Dps Jug said fine,he was done arguing and would freely admit that indeed the Mara was out-damaging him by up to 15%.

 

Then he asked if this meant that the Mara should be Nerfed to be more inline with the other dps AC or if the Jug was going to get a buff to put him on the same level?

 

This caused the entire thing to suddenly take on a new level of debate and a lot of things were said I had never heard before.

 

What do you guys think? If you take it for granted that indeed Mara Dps is greater than Jug Dps by 15% then what does that mean for the AC's?

 

*Edited to change to Mara!

 

Your guild sounds... special.

 

I've seen rage juggs put up 700k damage with 5k crits. I haven't seen a marauder do that. Most I've seen marauder do is like 500k with 100k healing

 

If anything, marauders need a carnage spec buff. To me it sounds like your jugg is doing it wrong

[KyoMamoru]

From what I'm gathering, people believe that Raid Bosses have an armor value of 5815, or 35%. A Juggernaut is going to have five applications of Sunder, which reduce armor by 4% per each. This reduces the armor of the boss to 4,652 which places the armor at 30.1%. This creates a 5% increase of damage for most attacks, for the entire duration of the fight. Due to the ease of getting a full stack, the debuff is always on in every fight on a target of note. Bloodthirst can only be used once every major boss, and only lasts for 15 seconds.

 

Sunder >>> Bloodthirst.

Edited March 14, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[Thankyjack]

They can give you accurate comparisons(Per player only) with council. It's very easy to time your council from hit to kill and math out the dps.

 

While it isn't an accurate representation of your output for all content, it's still a good "patchwerk" fight to see your own dps in a burn fight.

 

Over several different fights, with everyone using the same gear and talents and fighting the same council mini-boss, this is true for comparative dps within your guild, player to player (i.e. a more "talented/knowledgeable" player may out dps a lesser player even when the lesser player is using a class with better theoretical dps) .

[Thankyjack]

 

2 marauders atleast w/ my itemization(530 melee bonusdmg) is out dpsing sins/snipers/bh full rakata geared.Ev counsil im done around 20sec ahead of everyone. The reason why is cuz we have unlimited UNLIMITED rage which means we dps 100% of the time. My normal burst rotation can net me around 15k dmg w/o dots applied. Im expected to sit on every boss 100% of the time because of my dmg output which also means im bres priority over everyone else except heals/tanks.

 

 

Which is why council is such a bad fight to do anything other than compare people on a given night.

 

9 out of 10 fights, melee fails to come close to 100% uptime. In fact, boss aoe for melee mitigates resource starvation for ranged. It is probably true generally that on most fights ranged out dpses melee because of uptime loss due to fight mechanics.

 

I assume the rest of your post was tongue in cheek because it was just more blither, blather.

[Dreary]

BTHM Solo (Marauder w/ pet) -

 

 

I'll be waiting, Juggs (First boss only).

[Sneakybootz]

Which is why council is such a bad fight to do anything other than compare people on a given night.

 

9 out of 10 fights, melee fails to come close to 100% uptime. In fact, boss aoe for melee mitigates resource starvation for ranged. It is probably true generally that on most fights ranged out dpses melee because of uptime loss due to fight mechanics.

 

I assume the rest of your post was tongue in cheek because it was just more blither, blather.

 

 

What fight mechanics do you speak of?. As a mara there is only one fight im not on the boss 100% of the time and that is Soa otherwise im on them 100% of the time and i only get off soa for mind traps. And before some one says meele can't stay in on nightmare fights. Yes we can atleast as a anni mara we can cycle thru BW/FC and CP and never have to get off a boss due to a AoE.

 

And yes iv done all the fights 5/5 5/5 nightmare.

[PenoNation]

What fight mechanics do you speak of?. As a mara there is only one fight im not on the boss 100% of the time and that is Soa otherwise im on them 100% of the time and i only get off soa for mind traps. And before some one says meele can't stay in on nightmare fights. Yes we can atleast as a anni mara we can cycle thru BW/FC and CP and never have to get off a boss due to a AoE.

 

And yes iv done all the fights 5/5 5/5 nightmare.

Well there are some fights where you aren't on the boss 100% of the time (Gharj, for instance, when you have to go to a different island) but yea, for the most part, we spend virtually the entirety of every Boss encounter on said boss.

 

Eternity Vault

Droid - On the boss for the entire fight except for knockbacks. Some may run out in NM during his salvo. Ranged SLIGHT advantage.

Gharj - On the boss the entire fight other than knockbacks or when running to new island. Some may run out when he does his Slam. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Pylon - On the easy adds & the bugs the entire fight. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Council - On your mob the entire fight. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Soa - On the boss the entire fight unless you get in a mind trap, have to kill a mind trap, get thrown into the air, or need to eat a lightning ball. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

 

Karagga's Palace

Bonethrasher - On the boss for the entire fight, unless killing red adds. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Sorno & Jarg - On the boss the entire fight, unless killing droids. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Foreman - On the boss the entire fight except when knocked back. Melee holds an advantage over ranged, who need to dodge boulders and AE adds.

G4-B3 - On the boss the entire fight unless killing stun droids. Melee or Ranged DPS makes no difference.

Karagga - On the boss the entire fight. Melee holds an advantage over ranged, who get sucked into gravity wells and need to kill adds.

Edited March 15, 2012 by PenoNation

[eightohfive]

I don't know how to spell this out any clearer for you and if you don't understand this then there's no hope at all for you.

 

There would be little to no point in taking a Marauder over a juggernaut if our damage was the same because surprise surprise during the act of raiding people occasionally have to leave and if say one of those people is a tank and you find yourself needing another tank well one of your DPS Juggernauts when dual spec is here can simply change to tank spec and Rakata gear isn't exactly rare, my Broonmark is rolling around in full Rakata right now.

 

When it comes to designing a raid party those classes that can fill multiple roles depending upon the needs of the fight are taken above 1 trick ponies especially if that one trick pony isn't even the best at its trick.

 

....Oh the irony of your first sentence. The person was talking about competitive raiding...In which case your main tank isn't going to bounce out mid-raid unless it's an emergency. At this point you would either use your offtank (if this is 16man) or just call the raid. Few people would want to go through the trouble of waiting on a juggy or powertech dps to switch their specs, learn their rotations, learn the tank roles for the fight and then finally start the raid again. I can tell you this, in all my years of playing, I've never been in a serious raid group that took a hybrid class as dps on the off-chance that a tank or healer would drop out with no prior warning.

 

Also your argument suggests that the ability to do damage is the only criteria to judge whether you should bring a long a pure dps class. It's been stated multiple times in this thread and hundreds of others why that is completely wrong.

[Rhaphael]

The developers once said that all classes are within 5% of each other in their respective dps specs.

 

If any class is not working like this it should be fixed.

[hadoken]

The developers once said that all classes are within 5% of each other in their respective dps specs.

 

If any class is not working like this it should be fixed.

 

Georg said in an interview at the summit that operatives were within 5% of marauders as well (and operatives typically consider themselves crap for pve).

 

We'll see the truth soon enough with combat logs, I guess.

[EvilVictor]

Heavy Armor is pretty much a non issue. My marauder and my dps jugg have almost identical mitigation.

 

Dual wielding is only an issue for carnage and annihilation spec marauders. Rage spec marauders are brutal but only use their offhand saber for filler attacks so the only real advantage for them is offhand mods to let them decide which stats to boost.

 

The flip side of dual wielding is that a dps jugg can use a shield for what works out to about another 4-5% mitigation (that works for incoming damage that armor doesn't) even with a full dps spec and full dps gear (aside from the shield of course). The dps gain for using a focus over a shield is minimal due to diminishing returns.

 

If you think annhilation marauders bring utility you've never run with a rage marauder that knows how to abuse Predation. The "secret" lies with relentless fury. No jugg can touch that amount of team utility.

 

Speaking of rage marauders, a rage jugg can actually do higher burst/AoE damage. The comparison here becomes the difference between Predation (+50% movement, +10% defense) and Sunder/Smash with their armor debuff and accuracy debuff. But, you're talking about ops so why not have one of each?

 

Personally, I prefer a rage jugg over a marauder in PvP although overall they work out to be about the same effectiveness. A lot of players see a jugg and assume you're a tank so you're low on the priority list until it's too late. A marauder in his bright red dress is a pretty obvious target once they see how quickly you can destroy them. I can't speak for ops much, my marauder and jugg were both levelled up with minimal PvE (class missions and not much else). I've done some HMs but they seem pretty easy so I hope ops are tougher, I'm sure someday I'll be up for a change of pace.

 

In the end I think it boils down to the player more than the class. The specs all play quite a bit differently so don't think that just because you understand one spec you understand them all. I get "L2P" smack from people in PvP all the time until they see the stats at the end of the WZ, I guess PvE will be the same once we have combat logs to parse and/or dps meters. Until then I'll enjoy them both and let people "what if" themselves to death on the forums with crazy situational comparisons

 

PS- The bright red dress comment was a joke before somebody strats screaming about how that isn't how the gear looks. It's garbage for marauders so we may as well have clown outfits.

Edited March 16, 2012 by EvilVictor

[Vaull]

Is jugg dps viable? yes, a character named Saul on Vulkar Highway server has never lost in a 1v1 duel period with his dps jugg...is he throwing up the same numbers as a Anni Marauder? Not even close. No way does a dps Jugg have the burst of a Anni specced Marauder when he is at full Berserk...and dont think that is a one min time to shine class either. After Marauders blow Berserk they are right back ready to unleash it again. It is a pure dps class that is bringing pure dps to the table, I think they are fine the way they are in Anni tree. Jugg dps is deff viable just as I have stated before. People dont know how to play Juggs whomever are the ones complaining that the class needs buffed. They **** and so does Marauders. If you want to play a Hybrid class because you dont want to be locked into the "role" then play Jugg. Edited March 23, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Vaull]

Also I will add that people who are comparing numbers off WZ scoreboards are tardos as well. I will take a dps class who has 100K dmg with 70 kills over someone who has 400K dmg with 10 kills any day of the week. You know why? because they have burst dmg. People want to stat pad and look beast mode. Use common sense and quit talking about scoreboards. Those are the people who get ***** because they dont know how to pvp. Edited March 17, 2012 by Vaull

[FlameofArnor]

The whole question would be settled by allowing re-spec of ACs. But I won't hold my breath.