Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[Gerandar]

Yea we wont notice.

 

You have 30 seconds to go through 2000 lines of combat log to make sensible changes. And then upload it. Make sure it matches when the AOE hits everyone else and you have none or when I pull out my calculator to check your DPS. Do you think we blindly accept everything and don't notice anomalies? Anomalies are what we are looking for.

 

Good luck with that.

 

 

This made me laugh. oh so very much, I thank you.

[Aloro]

Players will be singled out one by one and not included in the entire group as an overview. This is going to make EVERYONE look worse than they are. Out of context raid parses, just what the casuals need to cry over.

 

And if you refuse to upload your logs, yet another roadblock to casuals or those with this philosophy.

 

This is just divisive and detrimental to the community.

 

Well, no. It's divisive and detrimental to your guild, because you're the ones who will choose to do this. People who want to play that way will put up with it I suppose, while others will leave. If that's what you enjoy, then more power to you. That's not what I enjoy, nor how I prefer to approach gaming these days.

 

Before I'm lambasted as a carebear who doesn't understand the topic... I enjoy success and generally achieve it. I expect competence from myself and my friends and guild mates. I simply don't have problems in game that would justify this kind of approach. The content in this game is not so hard that it's necessary to be so very uptight about things, and frankly being that uptight is its own punishment.

[Thoffs]

DONT do it, you wont get to raid with me. it is FINE, it is OK.

 

Haha, by the tone of your posts I am sure that the vast majority would be perfectly ok with not raiding with you --- just saying.

[Aloro]

DONT do it, you wont get to raid with me. it is FINE, it is OK.

 

You, sir, have a deal. I won't do it and I won't raid with you. I'll still raid, and still succeed, but I'll have fun doing it, which is more than I imagine you'll be able to say. More power to you with your own approach.

[Monfort]

I thought we already had an existing thread complaining about lack of epeen......

[Goretzu]

Funny how raids existed before WoW and were ridiculously hard and required 100s of players and they never needed baby tools. If you know what youre doing and you trust your guild then you shouldn't have a problem. Pugs no matter what are unpredictable if people refuse to their job its pretty obvious and those people can get a group kick you know.

 

YOu dont need fancy combat meters to see who sucks its usually obvious right away.

 

There's nothing hardcore about addons. What makes you hardcore now is just whether your willing to subject yourself to insane schedules and crappy rules in a guild that has no life.

 

 

 

Aye EQ1, raiding has got much easier, not harder IMO (and not much more advanced really to be brutally honest), since.

[Aloro]

Aye EQ1, raiding has got much easier, not harder IMO (and not much more advanced really to be brutally honest), since.

 

Welllllll, raids have gotten more advanced, I'd say. With Nagafen, we pretty much just threw bodies at the dragon until it fell down. Man, I hated that era of raiding. There was absolutely nothing heroic about being one of hundreds of worker ants swarming over the cockroach.

 

Modern raids are a bit more complex, with stages and adds and terrain issues.

[Andryah]

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

LMAO.

 

I'm sure they are quaking in their shoes at your threats.

[Dejoblue]

For players like you, it's all about finding someone to blame other than yourself.

 

What you don't understand is that there are a large portion of the population who don't care about anything you are talking about and really don't want to play with people like you. It's not because we're "bads" or "carebears" it's because people like you drain all the fun out what is supposed to be a game. Joke is on you guy - we can clear the same content without being ******es about it.

 

Your assumption that your 1-2-3 button mashing is so superior to anyone else's 1-2-3 button mashing is probably the saddest part of all of this. Virtually everyone is using the same or similar rotations and many are increasingly being pigeon-holed into certain builds. So aside from players who are paying attention and those that aren't, there isn't much skill difference involved.

 

This is as gently as I can put it for you and your ego - you are not as special as you think you are.

 

 

 

You do not get world first boss kills by blaming other people you get it by looking over metrics and having great players that can figure out those metrics themselves. i do NOT have to go thru the metrics, everyone sees their own and fixes their ****. What I do is look over the damage taken parse and develop that strat, because, ya know there is no strat when you are doing world/ server firsts.

 

Do we want o get into the nitty gritty of leave your ****** combat logs like they are but let me see the damage that everyone takes? Boy then you all would really be out of your element trying to figure out what I was talking about.

 

fact is what we will be given is enough for the self correction we naturally do.

 

The issue is with strat development. If we do not have the tools to develop strats then BioWare is going to be VERY limited in what they can do with "visual queue raiding"

 

Good luck tho when you have bad players that do not correct themselves that are just bringing the raid down. Good luck figuring out who that is when you do the math and find out that you are short DPS and cant see who it is.

 

It is the lazy gamers that ride the coatails that are benefiting from this combat log. That is the ONLY constituency benefiting. They are not going to correct themselves and currently they do not even know they suck.

 

What BioWare has right now a big pile of IGNORANCE. Ignorance of what your dps is. When we have logs for ourselves that ignorance is only shifted to ignorance of what everyone else is doing.

 

You go right on a head, two months after I have developed the strats and you have full tier X gear and you kill that raid without calling people out, with lazy players that lie to you about their ability. You wont know why you are failing, you will just fail repeatedly.

 

In my world, people call themselves out and the raid leaders develop the strategies that the masses use later.

[Dejoblue]

What is so hard about understanding that the 3rd party site you upload your data to will compile your data with everyone else's?

 

The only thing divisive and detrimental is people pitching an infantil tantrum that BW won't let them have in-game real-time on-the-fly dps meters and have made a design decision to (a) compromise on dps meters for the sake of people who didn't want to deal with elitist jerks and (b) force you to play the game while in the raid and do your number crunching and strategy planning outside of it instead of relying on it as a crutch. Waaah. Threatening to "out" people on the internet with their combat log data is absurd and just another facet of the temper tantrum being thrown by people who can't accept compromise, and are so infantile and immature about a silly video game that they're willing to threaten to destroy it and the community it is trying to foster simply because it's not being developed precisely how they feel they are entitled to have it developed. Grow up.

 

Wanna know what's really going to happen? The opopsite of what you predict. People who want nothing to do with people telling them they are "baddies" or demanding they upload their logs before getting in a pug...they'll enjoy playing amongst themselves while the people who want to be jerks all the time get to enjoy each others' company. If people find a nice group of guildies they trust and get along with, theymight share with them.

 

But as far as the 3rd party site goes...that will most definitely require a login to look at your data, so what makes you think it can even be used as you threaten?

 

I give upload rights to everyone or I make them email their logs to the guild gmail account. Simple.

[Arkerus]

Right now in WOW and in RIFT meters are different from player to player. it depends where you were, the distance between players as to whetehr you got them included in your parse.

 

As for NO PUBLIC METERS. We are going to make you upload your meters, your logs, and not only will they be public there will only be one perspective, yours.

 

Thes are going to be absolutely public and the defacto accurate meters since there is only one source.

 

better get your excuse thesaurus out because BioWare is going to have the numbers right there in black and white and not even in context with the rest of the raid.

 

Players will be singled out one by one and not included in the entire group as an overview. This is going to make EVERYONE look worse than they are. Out of context raid parses, just what the casuals need to cry over.

 

And if you refuse to upload your logs, yet another roadblock to casuals or those with this philosophy.

 

This is just divisive and detrimental to the community.

 

Or you just play with a guild that doesn't want to rage over everyone's combat log.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

If that is your playstyle, by all means play with those types of people.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Arkerus

[Zarrot]

Meters and gadgets are a crutch for those players who are to lazy or incompetent to learn their class and the encounters.

[Ziljin]

I'd like TOR to have combat logs. I'd like to know what's going on as a player. I don't know if it's a game breaker for me. I will see.

 

As for raiding, it's been easy compared to that other game. I have to say it's been enjoyable. I've never found wiping all night fun so this is a nice break though I haven't tried Nightmare mode yet.

[Vyradder]

Everyone spends so much time criticising the game because it's a WoW clone...and here's the OP trying to make it more of one.

 

What if there NEVER is any high end raiding or metrics in ToR?

[Aloro]

It is the lazy gamers that ride the coatails that are benefiting from this combat log. That is the ONLY constituency benefiting. They are not going to correct themselves and currently they do not even know they suck.

 

Well, no. Not at all.

 

The poor players who have skilled friends/guild mates, who are now being carried through content, don't care about the combat log. They aren't benefitting from it in any sense. They already get what they want and don't care one whit about the underlying math. Why would they? They get what they want right now.

 

The people who benefit from this combat log are players like me, who actually want to theorycraft and minmax, but who don't want the math to get in the way of the game while playing. Which is to say, probably a LOT more players than you expect.

 

Edit: players like YOU also benefit, although not as much or in the way that you'd like. But surely you won't claim that the addition of detailed combat info won't be helpful to you, even if you have to look it up out of the game?

 

It's good to distinguish between "this has no value to me" and "this isn't precisely what I wanted".

Edited March 6, 2012 by Aloro

[Dawgtide]

To the OP, since when did raiding decide whether a game was an MMO. Grouping can mean just as much. Heck, just the solo content in this game will allow many husbands and wives to play together on their own time. They have 8 stories they can do together.

 

Your views should make you want to go back to the Granddaddy. Yes, Everquest, because that sounds like what you want. Most of us quit that stuff around Gates of Discord.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Dawgtide

[Phaedrynn]

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO. Hell I wonder how many have played an MMO, in beta they didnt have chat links for gear and didnt seem to understand why the playerbase wanted them. We still dont have linkable weapons. It is small things like this that have me question their philosophy and if they even have a design vision.

 

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

The reason is simple. If you dont have meaningful leaders in the game, guilds competing for world first kills, raids that are difficult enough to merit that kind of competition and the hardcore guilds that strive for such then they will not have masses of players aspiring to be anything within the game and the players will have little investment in their characters.

 

From the Guild Summit:

 

"Darth Hater: Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game."

 

If you dont have threat meters we will have to create asinine thresh-holds such as three sunders. Three sunders is the standard in Classic WoW due to no threat meters.

 

Let me tell you how we did server first Onyxia kills. her knock-back did a threat reduction. So, we began by doing three sunders, that didn't work because of the threat reduction on here wing buffet. Then we realized what happened and we started doing a manual timer count. We would have an announcer tell the entire raid to stop dps after a wing buffet. then count to 7 and then tell the entire raid to begin DPS again. I do not think this type of extreme discipline and being told what to do is going to work hand in hand with the atmosphere that you are trying to develop with this game.

 

So let me continue on with the story of threat meters. There are combat logs in WoW, have been since beta. After Onyxia it was obvious we needed something. SO some clever folks whipped out their hardcore RDX addons, ya know the original boss mods that you had to learn to code and create yourself in game, and decided to go beat on a mob and then see how much damage was needed for that mob to change targets. They did this for every ability in game.....and discovered the threat tables, the inherent threat of abilities, and created the first threat meters. If forget the names but nowadays we have Omen and Skada in WoW. They are great albeit WoW removed the need for threat management when they buffed all tanks including hunter pets 5%.

 

So, you see, we are going to work it out, we require these addons, this knowledge. We are hardcore. Lets talk about the incoming combat logs.

 

You do realise that there are parsers out there such as ACT, which I have used for EVERY SINGLE MMO I HAVE PLAYED(eq2, RIFT, AOC, etc). You realize that you will be writing these player only logs to a text file and that we are used to uploading these combat logs to World of Raids or other similar offline parsers and that these offline parsers allow for multiple uploads of the same encounter so as to get a more accurate picture of what happened because there are some issues such as being too far away from other members to get what they do logged.

 

SO, we will simply have EVERY PLAYER in the raid upload their combat log for the raid to the offline parser, or email it to our guild gmail account and have the leaders upload all of them.

 

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

If you intend to have the current wow model of threat where it doesnt matter, fine no threat meters are great whatever. However, we will find a way to get those combat logs and we will mandate everyone upload their logs to the website etc.

 

You need to decide if this is ok for the reputation of SWTOR because like it or not the behavior of your players is directly related to what you allow them to do and the tools you give them.

 

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

You have a lot riding on 1.2 and the subsequent Tier 2 raids.

 

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

I underlined and bolded the relevant portions...

 

Are you saying you wouldn't be parsing the combat logs and using a site like world of raids if these meters were in the game? Seriously? Lets face it, you WILL be doing it anyway, won't you.

 

All this crying over something this inconsequential and you actually have the nerve to make the comment I underlined above. News flash ace, you really aren't "hardcore", and probably don't have any real conception of what hard core raiding is about.

[DawnAskham]

SWTOR is a casual game for casual players. Enjoy it for what it is, or don't. But don't expect it to change anytime soon.

 

The developers have clearly outlined that SWTOR has zero aspirations of being a major player in anything approaching competitive raiding as it exists in other game, and if anything, seen to be pushing a 'feel good' raiding scene, one where all get a prize and no one is ever left feeling bad about their lack of ability.

Edited March 6, 2012 by DawnAskham

[Vydor_HC]

Yet oddly enough, my guild is working its way through operations without all of these necessary tools that "serious raiders" need to perform.

 

I'm perfectly happy with in game visual queues for things like boss abilities and threat. All I need is some little blinking red thing down where the eyeball above the ability bar is to tell me to lay off the dps a tad and viola. Somehow, I think that is what BW has in mind.

 

Yep, this game has been refreshingly nice in that sense.

[Blotter]

I give upload rights to everyone or I make them email their logs to the guild gmail account. Simple.

 

You won't have a guild for very long. Simple.

[Thundergulch]

I don't consider you a "serious raider" or a "hardcore" player if you feel you need a dps meter and threat meter in order to complete content. Trial and error and learn it the hard way or you are not, by definition, "hardcore." Rather, you are a player who needs to rely on a crutch. Period.

 

Did Super Mario Brothers have jumping timers or a buzzer that went off when you superspeed ran really fast and needed a cue to hit the jump button in time? No. You died. You died repeatedly until you learned it. You died repeatedly until you got frustrated sometimes. It shouldn't be any different in this or any other game if you truly want to EARN bragging rights for having completed content.

 

Only players whose skills are crippled need crutches.

 

Well said!

[Vinge]

Welllllll, raids have gotten more advanced, I'd say. With Nagafen, we pretty much just threw bodies at the dragon until it fell down. Man, I hated that era of raiding. There was absolutely nothing heroic about being one of hundreds of worker ants swarming over the cockroach.

 

Modern raids are a bit more complex, with stages and adds and terrain issues.

 

EQ raiding evolved a lot from the initial dragon raids as well, they were incorporating stages, adds, terrain issues etc within a few years.

 

Personally I don't agree that modern raids are more complex than the sort of stuff that EQ was doing in Planes of Power/Gates of Discord raids - which were all still released before WoW was, and were all done still without in game dps/threat meters etc.

[Ayabe]

Good luck tho when you have bad players that do not correct themselves that are just bringing the raid down. Good luck figuring out who that is when you do the math and find out that you are short DPS and cant see who it is.

 

It is the lazy gamers that ride the coatails that are benefiting from this combat log. That is the ONLY constituency benefiting. They are not going to correct themselves and currently they do not even know they suck.

 

What is bad to you exactly?

 

To me it's - breaking CC, standing around in AOE, looting while others are fighting, drawing aggro incorrectly, etc. That is someone playing poorly or a bad player. Someone running a 2-5-3 rotation instead of a 1-3-2 isn't a bad, despite the fact that you think he ought to be using the first rotation because it will net him +50 DPS.

 

That isn't your call to make and that sort of stuff doesn't make or break a raid. Aside from sheer stupidity people should have the freedom to play as they like because they aren't bringing the group down despite all the QQ'ing.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ayabe

[Thundergulch]

SWTOR basically has Tier 2 to show us that this is worth our time and effort, that it IS hardcore, that NIGHTMARE is actually a nightmare.

 

If it isnt, we will be in MoP beta.

 

So you are wanting a raid that is super difficult? in other words, a real Nightmare.. am I understanding you correctly?

 

BUT......

 

you want tools that help you defeat these ultra hard raids..... tell me how this is hardcore?

 

LMAO! I can see it now: It's too hard!!!! I want add-ons so I can beat it! QQ

:rolleyes:

[ThiborF]

Really? That's all you've got??

 

Seriously, the poster is exactly the kind of player SWTOR needs.

 

Or it's not?

Not every MMO released is going to cater to every niche of the entire MMO player base.

If it's BioWares decision that their content isn't going to satisfy the hardcore, epeen waving raider, so be it. Some will say "Well that means the game fails" which the response is no, it's just failed that subset of people.

 

It's also humorous that these so-called hardcore believe their competitive drive at raiding is what fuels the masses to raid ... to achieve the same alleged greatness they have. While there are certainly some that may be true for, I'm thinking it must be quite a blow to their ego to realize that many people raid simply to experience the content and couldn't give a rat's backside if you did it first, 2 months ago, on nightmare mode, etc etc.