When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?

[KhealThar]

yep because its terrible... if you ran vig you would do more damage and live longer. Rage is a gimmick spec built to attect people who think smash is everything... you can hit with spash every so often for good damage but EVERYTHING else blows.

 

Yeah, I switched to Vengeance and it's better in every way. Smash felt very clunky and boring, Vengeance is very fluid and amazing. I feel more tanky in shien form than I did in soresu as Rage.

[Tempsticks]

you said it yoursefl... sorry but maras and snipers are on the top of that 5% everyone else is on the bottom.

 

 

sorry but is a highly skilled Marauder is in a raid it will beat everyone, but marauders are teh hardest thing in game to play correctly. Sorry but what you want is something that is plain dumb, you want to eb top DPS just to be top DPS, you do not want to hear that maras and snipers are designed to be ahead of the other classes by a small amount because they are pures, they are also harder to play then everything else.

 

 

If you want dirt simple DPS that always win go play wow.

 

I don't really see what's hard about ANY of the classes in this game. You have to use GCDs that aren't dps or switch to stances that weaken your dps significantly to perform these "non pure" roles, so it's not like a jugg is sitting in shii cho, and crit smashing for 6k while he's guarding someone. pure dps that switch to tank stance to throw down a guard are really throwing themselves on the chopping block because a few strong aoes that hit the the jugg + the guy he's guarding wreck the jugg. If he put 31 talent points into dps and is sitting in dps stance, he should be doing pretty close to or the same damage as I am on my Marauder.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tempsticks

[Tempsticks]

its can;t tank, it cannot survive longer. it has 1 more defensive cooldown. I love how people think that cloak of pain is the best thing ever, it is good, however it was something needed to balance the class but because you baddies were not in beta you did not see how bad marauders used to be.

 

Marauder Defensive Cds:

Cloak of Pain: 20% damage reduction for 30 seconds

Saber Ward: 12 seconds of 50% block chance +25% less force and tech damage

Force Camo: In combat vanish and 4 seconds of invincibility if specced Annihilation.

Predation: 10% damage reduction

Obfuscate: 90% accuracy debuff for 6 seconds

Undying Rage: 5 seconds of 99% damage immunity by sacrificing 50% of health.

 

Cooldown times:

 

Saber Ward 3:00 Cloak of Pain 1:00 Undying Rage 1:15 in pvp set Force Camo 0:45 Obfuscate 1:00

 

Juggernaut Defensive Cds:

 

Saber Ward: 12 seconds of 50% block chance +25% less force and tech damage, 100% block for first 2 seconds.

 

Endure Pain: Instantly regain 30% of max health for 10 seconds, granted health lost at the end of the duration.

 

Invincible: 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds. Requires talent points in Tank tree.

 

Cooldown times:

 

Saber Ward: 3:00 Endure Pain: 1:30 Invincible: 3:00

 

Cloak of pain being active for every fight where you're getting focused makes a Marauder significantly tankier than a dps Jugg (even in soresu imo), and more than makes up for the difference between medium and heavy armor. Dps juggs only get 2 survivability cds outside of the tank tree and in the tank tree they only have 3. (I know that tank juggs make up for this by having lots of control and better defensive stats, I'm just comparing the defensive cds of the two ACs.)

 

You could even take this further by looking at abilities like Defensive Forms and Defensive Roll, which are low tiered abilities any spec can take that gives a Marauder great passive survivability increases. It doesn't take long at all to know when and how to use your defensive cds, and there's ways to leverage them that I could type pages about, such as popping berserk with a bleed up after popping undying rage and a medpack etc. But I think I proved my point.

 

--TL;DR--

If you think a dps Jugg, even in Soresu form can outlast a Marauder in any spec, you're out of your mind.

[havok_bloodcraft]

let's be clear that everyone is ok on losing out on damage to the pure damage ac's (sniper/marauder) but we should do as much as powertech/merc, op, sorc/sin because they are not pure dps either powertechs can tank, mercs can heal, sorcs can heal, ops can heal, and sin's can tank and they can all out dps us and that is the problem here. Edited March 8, 2012 by havok_bloodcraft

[InfamousXIII]

Im actually not sure where this argument is going anymore. Some people are yelling Rabbit season, like two guys are yelling Duck season and its going to take me a few minutes to make up some statistics not directly related to jugg dps and somehow make it justify my point....

[LeeTone]

Hey, let's give the guys wearing heavy armor dps on par with the pure dps classes of the game.

 

-50 JG

[Ythera]

But here's the whole point: Marauders have as many as or MORE defensive abilities than a Juggernaut. My Vengeance Juggernaut isn't more defensible than a marauder in any way. IF I decide to switch to Soresu form to get a bit tougher, my damage plummets like a lead bar. Also why the hell would I use a shield generator as a DPS Jugg?

 

See, that's the point we're trying to get across. We might have the OPTION to play tank, but if we play as DPS, we're in no way or shape tougher or more durable than a DPS marauder. Hence, our DPS should be about on par with yours. Capiche?

 

To summarize: Juggernauts are NOT tougher than marauders when specced for DPS. How hard is this to understand for crying out loud!

 

 

Edit: the only reason I can think of why Marauders do not want Juggernauts to deal as much damage as they, is the fact that they, in spite of their overcompensating usage of two lightsabers, are jealous of our mastery of one

 

Did you even read the Vengeance talent tree yet? The reason why Marauders have so many more base defensive cooldowns is because they don't have nearly as many general survival talents as we do nor ANY anti-CC talents. Unremitting grants immunity to interrupts AND reduces damage by 20% for 4 seconds after a Leap. Pooled Hatred provides Sorc lightning hatred. Defiance grants a full ONE THIRD of your focus bar by simply getting stunned, slept of knocked down. Commanding Presence reduces ALL damage by 4% permanently. Please, don't talk unless you know what you're saying.

[Tempsticks]

Cloak of Pain might as well be 100% uptime, it lasts for the duration of 99% of fights. Immunity to CC is great, but a dps Jugg simply cannot take the punishment a Marauder can. Defensive Roll and Defensive forms, + each tree having a high tiered survival talent outshines the ones you mentioned imo.

[bizcuits]

My jugg dps is more then effective. Not sure why anyone would have an issue. I'm veng spec.

[Schwarzwald]

I have never heard this before. The only thing I have ever heard is that everyone's potential DPS - everyone's - is designed to be within 5% of each other. That's close enough that skill and gear can make up the difference, and that's exactly how things should be. So sure, if Snipers and Maras can beat the others by 1%, who cares? If they can beat the others by around 10%, then we've got a problem. A person's skill should matter more than their class, no matter what.

 

Marauders and Snipers are Pure DPS classes

 

Juggernauts are Hybrid Tank DPS. The heavy armor, even in the DPS specs, comes at a cost of your DPS. Its called game balance.

[Schwarzwald]

Marauder Defensive Cds:

Cloak of Pain: 20% damage reduction for 30 seconds

Saber Ward: 12 seconds of 50% block chance +25% less force and tech damage

Force Camo: In combat vanish and 4 seconds of invincibility if specced Annihilation.

Predation: 10% damage reduction

Obfuscate: 90% accuracy debuff for 6 seconds

Undying Rage: 5 seconds of 99% damage immunity by sacrificing 50% of health.

 

Cooldown times:

 

Saber Ward 3:00 Cloak of Pain 1:00 Undying Rage 1:15 in pvp set Force Camo 0:45 Obfuscate 1:00

 

Juggernaut Defensive Cds:

 

Saber Ward: 12 seconds of 50% block chance +25% less force and tech damage, 100% block for first 2 seconds.

 

Endure Pain: Instantly regain 30% of max health for 10 seconds, granted health lost at the end of the duration.

 

Invincible: 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds. Requires talent points in Tank tree.

 

Cooldown times:

 

Saber Ward: 3:00 Endure Pain: 1:30 Invincible: 3:00

 

Cloak of pain being active for every fight where you're getting focused makes a Marauder significantly tankier than a dps Jugg (even in soresu imo), and more than makes up for the difference between medium and heavy armor. Dps juggs only get 2 survivability cds outside of the tank tree and in the tank tree they only have 3. (I know that tank juggs make up for this by having lots of control and better defensive stats, I'm just comparing the defensive cds of the two ACs.)

 

You could even take this further by looking at abilities like Defensive Forms and Defensive Roll, which are low tiered abilities any spec can take that gives a Marauder great passive survivability increases. It doesn't take long at all to know when and how to use your defensive cds, and there's ways to leverage them that I could type pages about, such as popping berserk with a bleed up after popping undying rage and a medpack etc. But I think I proved my point.

 

--TL;DR--

If you think a dps Jugg, even in Soresu form can outlast a Marauder in any spec, you're out of your mind.

 

Then why does an offensively geared Juggernaut specced Immortal always win 100% of the time over a marauder of any spec.

[Ouza]

My point was when i made this thread, that we are just as squishy as the pure dps classes in rage spec. If our mitigation was improved (certain stats not being useless in pvp) id be more than happy to keep damage where it is.

 

Oh well, whatever the case may be, the cycle of nerf round robin is gonna start.

 

 

 

(ps i spend 50 percent of the time in soresu for guard)

[Tempsticks]

Then why does an offensively geared Juggernaut specced Immortal always win 100% of the time over a marauder of any spec.

 

Bad Marauders I guess, if you've only got 15k HP all he should have to do is save blind and choke for endure pain if it's close. Only chance you have is to wait out cloak of pain, but I don't pop it right away unless I have to and I try to match cds with my opponent. What most Marauders probably do is panic and blow their cc breakers during the inevitable unchanneled Choke > Ravage combo, if you wait till your resolve bar is full vs a dps Immortal Jugg before popping cloak of pain and using bloodthirst/stims/adrenals, don't see how you'd lose honestly.

 

Shouldn't even need Undying Rage.

 

Also, I'm not necessarily talking about 1v1. A Marauder can fight in the middle of the fray for longer than a dps Jugg, and can be picked up by a healer and topped off much more easily. All of a Marauder's defensive cds (with the exception of Saber Ward, a Jugg ability anyway) come off cd in less than two minutes. Only using them when you need to, it's easy to have them up when you need them nearly every time.

[Goretzu]

complaining about low jugg dps when you could have been a marauder is like complaining that your bicycle is slow when you could have had an airplane.

 

 

Then why have any Jugg DPS trees at all? If indeed Juggs are "not" DPS.

[Goretzu]

if you think a hybrid should out DPS a pure tehn you are in a dream world. Jugg DPS is competative but it will never be the top DPS, Snipers and Marauders will always be the best DPS. Zeoller even stated that they will always be a little bit better DPS then the others because they are pures. He said it many times in Bets, he also said that doesn't make others useless everyones DPS is viable you just cannot expect to be number 1 with something like a jugg or even a sorcerer.

 

 

 

It wouldn't be so bad if you were more durable.

 

But a DPS Jugg isn't more durable than a DPS Marauder, it's less so, and does less DPS.

 

A tank Jugg is more durable, but does vastly less DPS.

[-SWA-]

please, don't talk unless you know what you're saying.

 

You know, this just occurred to me: originally, this post said 'don't be a dick', cause I think this remark is clearly unfriendly. It's amazing how a fun and interesting discussion can turn into one that requires attacks aimed at me, as you did. Instead of telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, why couldn't you have said 'Hey, what about these talents, aren't you forgetting those?' At least that would've prompted me to reply. Now I'm just annoyed. I think you are partially right in your assessment, but have a less than sympathetic way of saying it.

 

I'm out of this discussion.

Edited March 9, 2012 by -SWA-

[havok_bloodcraft]

if you set any of the hybrid ac's against a pure damage ac the pure damage should be 5% more damage. as much as everyone complains about juggs being a hybrid tank build so are assassins and powertechs (assassin I know for a fact has higher damage). and mercenary and operative and sorcerer are half healer but do more damage.

 

ac setup

 

3 healer/dps= sorcerer / operative / mercenary

3 tank/dps= juggernaut / powertech / assassin

2 dps = marauder / sniper

 

yes the pure dps should have more damage than the hybrids but keep in mind that a marauder can dps or dps a juggernaut with a dps spec can still intercede to shed threat from themselves and a teammate, taunt enemies off the healer or tank momentarily to prevent a wipe and from personal experience running hm's with a anni mara and myself as a veng jugg we stay even on kills and working together to knock down an enemy we kick serious butt because my armor reduction counteracts his higher damage and when both hit the same mob it bleeds burns and cries.

Edited March 9, 2012 by havok_bloodcraft

[Vid-szhite]

Marauders and Snipers are Pure DPS classes

 

Juggernauts are Hybrid Tank DPS. The heavy armor, even in the DPS specs, comes at a cost of your DPS. Its called game balance.

 

Wrong. Jugg Armor = Marauder Talents+Cooldowns = Sniper Cover + being Ranged DPS.

 

Marauder cooldowns and talents mitigate very large amounts of damage and give the whole raid buffs. Through talents, Maras can take 30% less damage (before armor) from all AoE, even elemental and internal, which is far more than Jugg can do - we have about 32% total damage reduction through armor WITH the 4% Veng talents, or about 10% more than a Marauder or Sniper. Sniper pulls ahead by not needing the armor, Marauder pulls ahead against AoE with Defensive Roll and pulls ahead when being directly targeted through Cloak of Pain (+20% damage reduction for 30 seconds).

 

Snipers don't even have to worry, they won't get hit by AoEs because they're sitting 35 yards away, get 20% ranged defense, can drop behind hard cover to take 0 damage if need be, and can buff everyone's defenses. In PvP they also get immunity to being charged at.

 

If Heavy Armor = bad damage, why don't Mercs and PTs have bad DPS? Try again. Heavy armor NEVER means "low DPS," not even in WoW. Melee NEED heavy armor or something like it in order to survive the damage they'll be taking as a result of being melee.

 

Juggs also have no aggro reducers, but instead have an aggro reset that they can only apply to OTHERS. Intercede, even when it applies to you through talents, does not touch your aggro - this is why Vengeance Hybrid Tank uses Intercede for mitigation. Marauders DO have an aggro reset in Force Camo, which wipes their aggro to 0 completely. Juggs have no aggro reducers and must stand in melee range getting the most threat, so any hate they pull must be tanked. THIS is why they have heavy armor - they have no choice BUT to take the hits if they pull aggro, while Sniper has tools to prevent taking aggro in the first place, and Mara has the tools to take hits like a champ AND reset their own aggro.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[InfamousXIII]

Then why have any Jugg DPS trees at all? If indeed Juggs are "not" DPS.

 

Who said juggs arent dps or cant dps? This thread is about juggs not having comparable dps to certain other classes. Also, as an immortal spec jugg i'm not sure why bioware decided to put those other two trees in there, i theorize they are placeholder skill trees for better immortal skill trees that will be released in the future.

 

Thinking further into it, perhaps i could chop down the other two skill trees and use the wood from them to build a large catapult, think of it like force leap on steroids....I will open my combats from unprecedented distance with unrivaled violence.

[wickedUOF]

Then you might as well make all the classes the exact same which will become REALLY boring, REALLY fast because you'll be reduced to

 

Lightsabre guy

lightening thrower guy

and

Gun guy

 

Sounds like a hoot right?

 

DPS jugs can do a fair amount of DPS but they shouldn't be even on the same page as a Mara. If you want them to be then you need to allow Mara's to wear heavy armor and give them more damage reducing abilities, otherwise what's the point of the mara class if a jug can do the same dps AND wear heavy armor with more defense and damage mitigation.

 

Mara's pay a price for their DPS by only being allowed to wear medium armor and not equip a shield generator which makes them much MUCH more squishy.

 

Jugs pay a price for being more resilant in combat by doing less dps.

 

It's called balance.

 

Are there juggs out there who wear shield gens in pvp? lol

[Thankyjack]

So many ex-wow and rift players stuck in that paradigm.

 

All dps classes in Swtor are strong if played well. The issue of which is strongest remains to be seen. I have seen every class finish first in the 1v1boss race. So much of it depends on the player, rng and lag (as it should be).

 

Truth be told, no one reaches the theoretical maximum dps, so it is irrelevant. Play the class you enjoy most, learn it well, gear your toon, and your dps will be good to great.

[Vid-szhite]

Are there juggs out there who wear shield gens in pvp? lol

 

Well, if they do, they're certainly trading a hell of a lot of DPS for minimal survivability. Shields barely work in PvP as it is, and they don't have nearly as much force power as a Focus.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[bananaface]

If you're min/maxing like my guild (10/10 nightmare on farm) does you don't bring a jugg to dps over a marauder simply cause of bloodthirst or a sniper cause of the raidshield etc.

 

So there are two options to make it more atractive to bring a jugg dps in a raid for those who min/max (mainly top guilds),

Make jugg more atractive.

Make others less atractive.

[CapuchinSeven]

complaining about low jugg dps when you could have been a marauder is like complaining that your bicycle is slow when you could have had an airplane.

 

DPS tree = DPS within a close range of all other DPS classes. TOR Beta 101, please keep up.

[Hesp]

The dps difference between the classes for pve are much closer than people are making it seem. I personally don't think a hybrid tax really has any place in current mmo's since in practice a half dps/half tank jugg or a half dps/half healer sorcerer would just be mediocre at fulfilling both roles simultaneously. Marauders and snipers both bring valuable raid tools (bloodlust and raidwall equivalents) which more than earn their raid spot; there's really no reason for classes to have any appreciably different dps numbers when each class has raid utilities associated with it to make them uniquely valuable.