When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?

[Ouza]

or to be more exact, effective as other dps classes. If mitigation worked properly i suppose it wouldn't be much of an issue. Ive tried rage and veng.

 

In rage spec, i am doing respectful damage with my smash (4k avg with full cent and 3 piece champ). Yet, it still feels lacking. Guildies wanted me to run a few wz's on my operative i shelved for a while, and i was dropping people with strings of 2-4k crits. A lot more burst. My jugg feels just as squishy as my operative.

 

Now that i am back on my jugg, i feel gimped. I am going to keep gearing him but i hope we get some love by the devs.

 

 

Veng spec was an awesome change of pace. I was sticking to targets and always doing something. The damage was....meh, but the utility was great. Its a great spec for huttball, but in civil war or void, i wasnt doing much other than being a guard n taunt bot with minimal damage.

 

 

I rolled the class because it was less "Faceroll", and a hell of a lot more fun than operative. I play my jugg wonderfully, but it does not even have the potential to match some of the dps classes.

 

 

 

 

Now one other point before you criticise me. I understand a class that can switch stance and tank shouldnt do AS MUCH as a pure dps, but look at bounty hunters and troopers. Powertech/vangaurd dps specs are MUCH superior to ours. They feel more tanky, they do more dps, and they have a choice of either range or melee.

 

 

 

Im not angry, but i dont feel like i am getting what should be the sith juggernaut. I kind of wish i rolled a maurader. Well, here is hopes we get some tweaking.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ouza

[InfamousXIII]

or to be more exact, effective as other dps classes.

 

 

jugg is a dps class? You, sir, took the pill that wont die. The pill you wanted was the one with two light sabers.

[Anbokr]

Our jugg dps do just fine and are often 2nd or 3rd on the 1v1 fight in hard/nightmare EV right behind our marauder(s) (one always beats out the mercs, sorcs, and snipers--shows if you play the class right you can get up there). Vengeance has great sustained, big crits, and minor bleeds on top of that (most juggs I talk to think their bleeds should be huge and scale when their activated abilities already hit for 3k+).

 

While I will agree that marauders do more damage, that's one class above you; that is meant to be above you by a tad (all classes having viable damage does not equal all classes having equal damage).

Edited March 6, 2012 by Anbokr

[Darthshnooky]

jugg is a dps class? You, sir, took the pill that wont die. The pill you wanted was the one with two light sabers.

 

Two DPS trees = DPS class.

 

Y'know, because every class in the game IS (can be) a DPS class.

[InfamousXIII]

complaining about low jugg dps when you could have been a marauder is like complaining that your bicycle is slow when you could have had an airplane.

[coldserpent]

A dps juggernaut is viable and effective, despite all the derp lemmings who would try to have you believe otherwise.

 

For example, To go Vengeance spec, you'd need to stack strength, then endurance, then crit/surge/power in that order.

For Rage spec, you bulk up on power to lower that stank on a group of people.

 

Each spec is viable, each has their role, and if done right, is great at it. Building for it, and working it out takes time and practice.

[Dracosz]

Let me put this out there first by saying that if you wanted to roll a class that only did dps you should have rolled a sniper or marauder. Plain and simple they are classes designed to do DPS and provide offensive utility (snipers have their bubble, fine >_>).

 

Regardless, when you picked a juggernaut, you picked a class that makes effective use of both defensive utility and offensive damage to maximize efficacy in group play. We have taunts, guard and soresu where marauders have predation and bloodlust-esque abilities.

 

The best players make use of everything their class has to offer. Yes, I play a vengeance juggernaut but I also toss out taunts and even swap to soresu and guard. If your class has the capability to do something, you should make the best of that and do it.

[SFC-Lawndart]

or to be more exact, effective as other dps classes.

 

Never going to happen, otherwise what's the point of having the Marauder class? Mara's have nothing but DPS, they don't have a tank spec. So giving juggs equavolent DPS numbers is a severe injustice to the mara class unless you give them a tank spec. In which case if your going to do that you might as well roll both classes into one because they are going to be the exact same minus the number of sabres they weild which is nothing more than a visual graphic.

 

The DPS spec juggs have is nothing more than a watered down solution to an age old MMO problem of having poeople who want to play tanks in set ups that require no more than two tanks maybe 3 tanks.

 

Jugs DPS spec shouldn't be anywhere near a Mara's. if you want to DPS like one, then roll one.

[Hydrium]

jugg is a dps class? You, sir, took the pill that wont die. The pill you wanted was the one with two light sabers.

 

So Assassins, Juggs and Powertechs can't DPS?

 

Good to know you're an idiot.

[Valcore]

I lol'd throughout this whole thread. Jugg dps is just fine. My jugg is almost always in the top 3 in warzones for dps, and many times, the highest dps. 300k - 400k damage in a huttball warzone, for a warrior, is great.

 

In addition, the operations that decide to take a dps jugg, specifically rage spec, will notice how the trash seems to melt away to the jugg's smashes, while the jugg can still pull great damage on a single target/boss, with 5k+ smash crits, and 3k+ force scream crits, whenever they're off cooldown. (With proper rotation of course).

 

Stack your surge and power, and watch your smashes obliterate

[Irongrin]

I lol'd throughout this whole thread. Jugg dps is just fine. My jugg is almost always in the top 3 in warzones for dps, and many times, the highest dps. 300k - 400k damage in a huttball warzone, for a warrior, is great.

 

In addition, the operations that decide to take a dps jugg, specifically rage spec, will notice how the trash seems to melt away to the jugg's smashes, while the jugg can still pull great damage on a single target/boss, with 5k+ smash crits, and 3k+ force scream crits, whenever they're off cooldown. (With proper rotation of course).

 

Stack your surge and power, and watch your smashes obliterate

 

Please note the difference between DPS (Damage Per Second) and Damage Done, you can figure out your dps in WZ's at least if you hoover over your damage done.

[WarSiren]

Jugg DPS is fine, Vengeance is actually very very good, rage has nice burst number every 25 seconds. The issue is Vengeance is actually harder to pull off correctly (as almost anyone with a Mara/sentinel and a Veng Jugg can tell you.) but once you get the flow down it's pretty beastly.

 

I don't have the time to really do the math or the whys atm as I'm getting ready to head out the door to work, but there are posts here that explain it all. Once you get the flow you'll be addicted to Vengeance.

[InfamousXIII]

So Assassins, Juggs and Powertechs can't DPS?

 

Good to know you're an idiot.

 

We're not talking about tank classes not being able to dps...

 

We're talking about tank classes trying to out dps straight damage classes...

 

Assassin vs. Sniper?

Jugg vs. Merc?

Powertech vs. My Cat?

[Hizoka]

We're not talking about tank classes not being able to dps...

 

We're talking about tank classes trying to out dps straight damage classes...

 

Assassin vs. Sniper?

Jugg vs. Merc?

Powertech vs. My Cat?

 

you are also talking to people who think a gunnery commando is a complex thing to play.

 

 

DPS juggs are behind but not far behind marauders/sentinels in terms of skill cap. Its something you either can play or can't. There really is not a middle ground.

[zargulis]

The BM Juggernauts on my server are all DPS, and they ALWAYS top the damage meter by a significant margin.

[Hizoka]

The BM Juggernauts on my server are all DPS, and they ALWAYS top the damage meter by a significant margin.

 

spaming smash is not exactly hard... Warzone damage is prolly the WORST thing to judge damage by... but then again smart people know that.

[zargulis]

spaming smash is not exactly hard... Warzone damage is prolly the WORST thing to judge damage by... but then again smart people know that.

 

Okay, so Juggernauts are not viable dps because they are easy and server-side Warzone damage meters are wrong?

 

Gotcha.

[Vid-szhite]

I lol'd throughout this whole thread. Jugg dps is just fine. My jugg is almost always in the top 3 in warzones for dps, and many times, the highest dps. 300k - 400k damage in a huttball warzone, for a warrior, is great.

 

In addition, the operations that decide to take a dps jugg, specifically rage spec, will notice how the trash seems to melt away to the jugg's smashes, while the jugg can still pull great damage on a single target/boss, with 5k+ smash crits, and 3k+ force scream crits, whenever they're off cooldown. (With proper rotation of course).

 

Stack your surge and power, and watch your smashes obliterate

 

This. If you aren't effective as a Jugg DPS, you're either badly geared, playing the class wrong, or it's all in your head, and you're beating yourself up over a disparity that isn't even there.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[-SWA-]

According to a number of posters in this thread, only the Sniper and the Marauder (Empire-side that is) are capable of doing real DPS. All other classes have two specs, and are therefore not allowed to deal as much damage. It's great to see how they base their opinions on nothing more than the argument that classes that can do only one thing should be better than those that can do two things (regardless of the fact that they cannot perform both these roles at the same time).

 

I have to people who support this view these questions: what, pray tell, does it matter if a Juggernaut deals about the same amount of damage as a Marauder? How does this fact change your role?

[Vid-szhite]

We're not talking about tank classes not being able to dps...

 

We're talking about tank classes trying to out dps straight damage classes...

 

If they couldn't, why play DPS spec on any class that isn't Marauder and Sniper? Notice that I don't mention Sorcerer or Mercenary - why do people seem to think Healer offspecs don't deserve a "damage tax" but tank offspecs do? Healer-offspecs are far more effective at healing in a pinch than the "tank classes" are at tanking in a pinch, since DPS stats also buff healing, but are useless for tanking.

 

Just because they have no off-spec is no reason to give Mara and Sniper better DPS. You can't DPS and tank at the same time, and some people will never play tank or healer no matter what you do, even if you gave them the option to do so with a respec. If their only option for the best DPS is to play pure DPS classes, that's not exactly freedom to pick the class that speaks to you the most, is it? They'd be penalized for picking a class that CAN tank or heal, but will never be USED to tank or heal.

 

People always complain when their class doesn't have an off-spec that gets them groups faster, ignoring the fact that nobody re-specs just to get a group, because they either lack the gear to use their off-spec, or lack the skill, or lack the cash to respec, or lack the willingness to even play that spec. Even as a Jugg DPS, I don't respec to Tank unless my guild asks specifically for it.

 

This also ignores the fact that Marauders have moves that benefit the entire party or ops group, such as Marauders straight up buffing all healing done to the entire ops group by 15% once per fight, and so on. Marauders may not be tanks, but they have lots of utility. A DPS Jugg may have a tank offspec, but he still isn't a tank unless he's built for it, and to even consider Offtanking, he has to switch to Soresu form, reducing his DPS and rage generation significantly. Why should the Jugg DPS be penalized for having utility that he can't even use at the same time as his DPS? Marauders don't even have to stop DPSing to use their utility moves - most of them even benefit directly from the Marauder continuing to DPS.

 

ALL classes, regardless of having utility specs, should do relatively even DPS. That's the devs' goal. That's pretty much the reality, save a few outliers here and there.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Schwarzwald]

Bring other classes with higher damage to complement the Juggernaut. Bring a Marauder and a Sniper. You will effectively be increasing their damage with the sunders on a target so some of what the Juggernaut contributes to the raid isn't in their ability damage alone.

 

That an any Jug can go into soresu at any given moments notice and off tank something should they need to. A squishier class could not do this.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Vid-szhite]

Bring other classes with higher damage to complement the Juggernaut. Bring a Marauder and a Sniper. You will effectively be increasing their damage with the sunders on a target so some of what the Juggernaut contributes to the raid isn't in their ability damage alone.

 

That an any Jug can go into soresu at any given moments notice and off tank something should they need to. A squishier class could not do this.

 

That's kind of insulting - if Jugg is only allowed to bring utility and not compete in the damage department, why bring more than one? Why bring a Powertech DPS if you already have a Jugg and vice versa? Jugg isn't even the only class that has utility - squishier classes bring utility as well, and Offtanking is the one form of utility that is LEAST LIKELY to be needed in a pinch. Most ops require two main tanks, not a tank and offtank, so offtanking is only useful if a main tank dies, which means you're most likely about to wipe. Saving the raid for a moment to get the tank back up is helpful, yes, but if they'd had someone who could offheal, they wouldn't need that to begin with. Offtanking is a last resort. If you want to talk about adds, taunting up all the adds, rather than letting DPS bounce hate around, means you're going to need a LOT of direct healing rather than just being able to stand in the AoE heal, and the AoE heal is going to be needed anyway. It's inefficient and might even kill you. Once again, if it's needed, you CAN do it. Since you should almost never need that, however, it should NEVER be taken into account for balancing purposes.

 

Once again, Marauders bring utility in the form of unique Raid Wide Buffs, so they aren't exactly hurting in that department. Sniper's utility is being very consistent Ranged DPS that can duck behind Cover to take no damage at all when needed, in addition to having location buffs.

 

and FTR, Jugg already have weaknesses in the form of being Melee DPS and no self heals at all (Endure Pain is only temporary HP), while Marauders DO have self heals, and DO have Raid-Wide heals, and DO buff healing done by other healers. They have MANY cooldowns and talents that let them escape from damage, reflect damage, or reduce damage done to them considerably, making them one of the most well-rounded DPS in the game. Jugg does not deserve to be weaker at DPS just because Marauder and Sniper can't Offtank, which is exactly why it isn't.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Hizoka]

That's kind of insulting - if Jugg is only allowed to bring utility and not compete in the damage department, why bring more than one? Why bring a Powertech DPS if you already have a Jugg and vice versa? Jugg isn't even the only class that has utility - squishier classes bring utility as well, and Offtanking is the one form of utility that is LEAST LIKELY to be needed in a pinch. Most ops require two main tanks, not a tank and offtank, so offtanking is only useful if a main tank dies, which means you're most likely about to wipe. Saving the raid for a moment to get the tank back up is helpful, yes, but if they'd had someone who could offheal, they wouldn't need that to begin with. Offtanking is a last resort. If you want to talk about adds, taunting up all the adds, rather than letting DPS bounce hate around, means you're going to need a LOT of direct healing rather than just being able to stand in the AoE heal, and the AoE heal is going to be needed anyway. It's inefficient and might even kill you. Once again, if it's needed, you CAN do it. Since you should almost never need that, however, it should NEVER be taken into account for balancing purposes.

 

Once again, Marauders bring utility in the form of unique Raid Wide Buffs, so they aren't exactly hurting in that department. Sniper's utility is being very consistent Ranged DPS that can duck behind Cover to take no damage at all when needed, in addition to having location buffs.

 

and FTR, Jugg already have weaknesses in the form of being Melee DPS and no self heals at all (Endure Pain is only temporary HP), while Marauders DO have self heals, and DO have Raid-Wide heals, and DO buff healing done by other healers. They have MANY cooldowns and talents that let them escape from damage, reflect damage, or reduce damage done to them considerably, making them one of the most well-rounded DPS in the game. Jugg does not deserve to be weaker at DPS, which is exactly why it isn't.

if you think a hybrid should out DPS a pure tehn you are in a dream world. Jugg DPS is competative but it will never be the top DPS, Snipers and Marauders will always be the best DPS. Zeoller even stated that they will always be a little bit better DPS then the others because they are pures. He said it many times in Bets, he also said that doesn't make others useless everyones DPS is viable you just cannot expect to be number 1 with something like a jugg or even a sorcerer.

[Vid-szhite]

if you think a hybrid should out DPS a pure tehn you are in a dream world. Jugg DPS is competative but it will never be the top DPS, Snipers and Marauders will always be the best DPS. Zeoller even stated that they will always be a little bit better DPS then the others because they are pures. He said it many times in Bets, he also said that doesn't make others useless everyones DPS is viable you just cannot expect to be number 1 with something like a jugg or even a sorcerer.

 

I have never heard this before. The only thing I have ever heard is that everyone's potential DPS - everyone's - is designed to be within 5% of each other. That's close enough that skill and gear can make up the difference, and that's exactly how things should be. So sure, if Snipers and Maras can beat the others by 1%, who cares? If they can beat the others by around 10%, then we've got a problem. A person's skill should matter more than their class, no matter what.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Hizoka]

I have never heard this before. The only thing I have ever heard is that everyone's potential DPS - everyone's - is designed to be within 5% of each other. That's close enough that skill and gear can make up the difference, and that's exactly how things should be. So sure, if Snipers and Maras can beat the others by 1%, who cares? If they can beat the others by around 10%, then we've got a problem. A person's skill should matter more than their class, no matter what.

 

you said it yoursefl... sorry but maras and snipers are on the top of that 5% everyone else is on the bottom.

 

 

sorry but is a highly skilled Marauder is in a raid it will beat everyone, but marauders are teh hardest thing in game to play correctly. Sorry but what you want is something that is plain dumb, you want to eb top DPS just to be top DPS, you do not want to hear that maras and snipers are designed to be ahead of the other classes by a small amount because they are pures, they are also harder to play then everything else.

 

 

If you want dirt simple DPS that always win go play wow.