Bioware, what are you thinking?

[LordZook]

Star Wars lore has many plot holes and retcons. Why should this gameplay addition matter in light of that?

 

Personally I welcome this change! If this were Lord of the Rings Online, then the lore argument would hold water, but this is Star Wars we're talking about. Like hell will I ever take it seriously!

 

If I want to be a Twi'lek trooper, then god dammit I'll play one! Plus it's more content to work with. At least they're adding these new race/class combos via a patch rather than an expansion, which is awesome in my opinion.

[CactusBrawler]

Have been tossing around the idea of giving my PB juggernaught a jedi knight sister. Some time ago when he was younger and she was little, his father and mother were up to sithy stuff, got rumbled by a Jedi Knight, both slain JK finds a baby/todler/infant, now a good Jedi isn't going to off a kid, or send it back to become a sith. So she is taken to be trained as Jedi.

 

The sith juggernaught learns from this that being a sneaky backstabber like his folks, means no one has your back should you meet a foe stronger than you, so he becomes more honourable, not betraying or executing those he can turn to his allies.

 

The sith girl. well I'll have to decide how she goes when playing the JK story, will she prove that she's not naturally atuned to the dark side? Or will the mistrust she feels that she's been treated with (imagined or otherwise) send her down a darker path?

[Caelrie]

Sooooo...

 

Now that it has been announced that you won't even have to get a race to 50 to unlock it for all classes(just get to legacy 8 and pay 1.5 million credits), how is that "there won't be that many cross overs around because you have to have a level 50 of the race" etc. argument working for you guys?

 

Please don't argue that 1.5 million credits is a lot, because everyone who has been at level 50 for more than a week or two knows it's not.

 

84% of level 50 characters have less than a million credits, despite what you're trying to claim.

 

Regarding your second, I think you are the one being absurd. Pureblood Sith have the Sith code deep in their blood

No they don't.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Caelrie

[farfulnugen]

I never understood people who complain about lore issues. Did you write the lore? Did you at all contribute to the backstory of the Star Wars universe?

 

Who are you to tell anyone that this breaks lore? The funny thing about lore is that what is written, isn't necessarly everything that happened in that universe. There are many untold stories that have yet to be told. Guess what? Here's your chance to contribute one of those stories.

 

Get off your geek pedestal and realize the world isn't linear and predictable.

[Phaedrynn]

Eh...it's a game, based on fiction. I pretty sure they can make it what ever they want and it wont matter.

[VanorDM]

If this were Lord of the Rings Online, then the lore argument would hold water, but this is Star Wars we're talking about.

 

Thing is, in LotRO the lore says quite clearly that Orcs = Evil. There's no gray area there, no reformed Orc's, they do not have the ability to be redeemed period. They are inherently evil and vile creatures because that's how they were made.

 

A Sith on the other hand is not an Orc, and is not inherently evil or devoted to the Dark Side. They may have a genetic predisposition towards the Dark Side, but that is no more absolute then a genetic predisposition towards being an alcoholic means you will become one.

 

There is nothing in the lore that states that a Sith can not be redeemed, or that they can't become a Light Side Jedi at a young age. In fact there is a Sith Jedi already in the game, so clearly the lore states it's possible.

[Cancrizans]

Thing is, in LotRO the lore says quite clearly that Orcs = Evil. There's no gray area there, no reformed Orc's, they do not have the ability to be redeemed period. They are inherently evil and vile creatures because that's how they were made.

 

A Sith on the other hand is not an Orc, and is not inherently evil or devoted to the Dark Side. They may have a genetic predisposition towards the Dark Side, but that is no more absolute then a genetic predisposition towards being an alcoholic means you will become one.

 

There is nothing in the lore that states that a Sith can not be redeemed, or that they can't become a Light Side Jedi at a young age. In fact there is a Sith Jedi already in the game, so clearly the lore states it's possible.

 

Well this entire thread has been full of reasons why it is POSSIBLE. But that isn't the issue. The issue is that with these changes, we are very likely to see many more cross over races than would ever be possible in a realistic scenario.

 

If that does not happen, then from my viewpoint there is no problem. I have said that many times in this thread, yet people who don't bother to read before posting keep ignoring that and repeating this "exceptional cases" argument that basically only provides proof that it is POSSIBLE that a VERY small number of x race may change sides.

 

None of these arguments has anything to do with how a relatively large number of cross overs(which I personally think we are likely to see) could possibly happen.

 

So let me rephrase the topic this way: IF we DO see a ridiculously large number of cross overs, will you still defend these changes? I imagine those who really don't care much about either the Star Wars norms or any kind of realistic environment in their games will likely say "sure" but these people would also likely support rollerskating Unicorns with eye lazers in Star Wars so I personally wouldn't weigh their opinions very highly.

 

The real question is what degree of cross overs in population real Star Wars fans are willing to accept before they cry foul? As I said, please don't repeat the x character in y book did z argument again, there are about 50 versions of that in this thread already. Let's hear a bit concerning what amount of cross over representation you guys would find acceptable, and at what limit you will be unable to suspend disbelief any further.

[amnie]

my chiss' grandfather was a human smuggler, his mother an imperial agent... meaning he saw the 'backgrounds' of the empire, and decided that's not for him. don't like it? well that's too bad but don't expect him to save your butt then, either Edited March 15, 2012 by amnie

[RuQu]

If that does not happen, then from my viewpoint there is no problem. I have said that many times in this thread, yet people who don't bother to read before posting keep ignoring that and repeating this "exceptional cases" argument that basically only provides proof that it is POSSIBLE that a VERY small number of x race may change sides.

 

None of these arguments has anything to do with how a relatively large number of cross overs(which I personally think we are likely to see) could possibly happen.

 

So let me rephrase the topic this way: IF we DO see a ridiculously large number of cross overs, will you still defend these changes? I imagine those who really don't care much about either the Star Wars norms or any kind of realistic environment in their games will likely say "sure" but these people would also likely support rollerskating Unicorns with eye lazers in Star Wars so I personally wouldn't weigh their opinions very highly.

 

The real question is what degree of cross overs in population real Star Wars fans are willing to accept before they cry foul? As I said, please don't repeat the x character in y book did z argument again, there are about 50 versions of that in this thread already. Let's hear a bit concerning what amount of cross over representation you guys would find acceptable, and at what limit you will be unable to suspend disbelief any further.

 

What percentage are we talking about when we say a "very small possibility?" One out of a million? If one out of a million Americans defected to Cuba that would be ~330 Americans. Half that? I'm sure at any given time you could fine ~150 Americans on that island, not counting Guantanamo Bay. So 1:2million.

 

How many people are in the Sith Empire....a lot more than are in America.

 

Where is the "Ellis Island" of the Republic? Where would they arrive? The Fleet.

 

If they cannot get permission to settle on any other world, where will they be stuck once they arrive? The Fleet.

 

What's the population of the Fleet? Let's assume that the two ships are 10 times the size of an American aircraft carrier and give them crews/populations of 50k each, double that for Carrick Station. That's 200k people.

 

Now, considering the huge Imperial population, the small Fleet population, and the "Ellis Island Effect" of immigrants settling down at their point of ingress, what percentage of the population should we see as Purebloods and Chiss?

 

I think the question you should be asking is "how do you explain the Fleet NOT being overwhelmingly Chiss and Pureblood?"

 

Though that answer, too, is obvious...liberal immigration regulations on many Republic worlds.

 

There is a precise point where those two meet, immigration restrictions on the Republic Worlds and the number of former Imperial immigrants, that precisely explains any number of Pureblood/Chiss/Ratataki on the Fleet.

 

Think of the Fleet as a tank holding water, with a release valve and an intake valve. The intake valve is a constant rate, the release valve is controlled by the pressure of the water above it. As the level rises, the water flows out faster until it finds the exact point of equilibrium where the pressure-controlled outflow = constant inflow, and the water remains at that point from then on. The Fleet is the same, responding to population pressure instead of water pressure.

 

So there you go. Absolutely any cross-faction race population on the Fleet can be explained by different choices for the values described above, from 1% to 99%.

 

/thread

[IronJelly]

What percentage are we talking about when we say a "very small possibility?" One out of a million? If one out of a million Americans defected to Cuba that would be ~330 Americans. Half that? I'm sure at any given time you could fine ~150 Americans on that island, not counting Guantanamo Bay. So 1:2million.

 

How many people are in the Sith Empire....a lot more than are in America.

 

Where is the "Ellis Island" of the Republic? Where would they arrive? The Fleet.

 

If they cannot get permission to settle on any other world, where will they be stuck once they arrive? The Fleet.

 

What's the population of the Fleet? Let's assume that the two ships are 10 times the size of an American aircraft carrier and give them crews/populations of 50k each, double that for Carrick Station. That's 200k people.

 

Now, considering the huge Imperial population, the small Fleet population, and the "Ellis Island Effect" of immigrants settling down at their point of ingress, what percentage of the population should we see as Purebloods and Chiss?

 

I think the question you should be asking is "how do you explain the Fleet NOT being overwhelmingly Chiss and Pureblood?"

 

Though that answer, too, is obvious...liberal immigration regulations on many Republic worlds.

 

There is a precise point where those two meet, immigration restrictions on the Republic Worlds and the number of former Imperial immigrants, that precisely explains any number of Pureblood/Chiss/Ratataki on the Fleet.

 

Think of the Fleet as a tank holding water, with a release valve and an intake valve. The intake valve is a constant rate, the release valve is controlled by the pressure of the water above it. As the level rises, the water flows out faster until it finds the exact point of equilibrium where the pressure-controlled outflow = constant inflow, and the water remains at that point from then on. The Fleet is the same, responding to population pressure instead of water pressure.

 

So there you go. Absolutely any cross-faction race population on the Fleet can be explained by different choices for the values described above, from 1% to 99%.

 

/thread

 

You're thinking too hard about this.

 

If I see a pureblood on the Republic Fleet, I'm simply going to say to myself: wow! That human's sunburn is so bad his face is melting!

 

and then I'll be on my merry way. Anybody unable to do the same basic thing shouldn't be allowed to play. It's not up to you how I choose to play. period.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

As I understand it SW lore already allows for redemption of all but the most devoted Sith. I find it hard to believe that the Jedi wouldn't be trying to turn any Dark Sider they capture as surely the Empire would be doing the same. If we want to get picky about cannon then there shouldn't even be any Dark Side options for Jedi as established cannon doesn't have the Jedi accepting Force users who are openly Dark Side among their ranks. But it would be bloody boring if the only options Jedi had was "do I want to be neutral, nice or super nice?" Having Sith Purebloods on the Republic won't be any more cannon breaking then having level 50 Jedi who are completely Dark Side yet still part of the Jedi Order and Republic.

 

As for the Chiss I always thought it was breaking cannon to assign them to only the Empire faction and that the reason they did that was because the most famous Chiss, Thrawn, was part of the Empire from the movies. It was my understanding that established cannon has the Chiss as isolationists. So technically the Chiss shouldn't be formally allied to either game faction. Therefore, I see no reason then that a Chiss couldn't choose the Republic. In a way allowing the Chiss to be both Republic and Empire could be more in line with established cannon then what we currently have.

 

At any rate the game can only accurately reflect the smallest portion of the SW galaxy's actual population. So in game population issues could always be retconed by saying it only represented 1% of the total galaxy population/faction population (so even if 100% of the Republic on a server were Sith Purebloods it could easily be retconned to be no more than 1% of that faction's population).

[Cancrizans]

I can understand what you are trying to say with the Ellis Island argument, but imo the Fleets are nothing at all like an Ellis Island situation. No matter IF the majority of defectors would come to the fleet...there would still be a much larger number of "normal" races there because IT IS A CENTER OF ACTIVITY for Republic/Empire ranging from missions to trade everything else in between.

 

Given what the fleets ACTUALLY are, you may see more cross overs than you might expect in other places, but most definitely not the imbalanced amount you are suggesting. For me the bottom line is I think we will see a grossly unrealistic situation develop not only on the fleets but in general, and it is all caused by this frivolously chosen and, frankly, outright silly decision Bioware is making to include things people never wanted and make no real sense from a Star Wars perspective as part of their Legacy system.

 

In my opinion this is creating a negative and unappealing impression of the Legacy system for a lot of people...and I say this based not only on conversations with people I know in game, but just reading how discussions about the topic seem to go in General chat and elsewhere. Whenever the topic comes up, there are quite a large number of people who are both baffled and concerned about these changes.

 

So I think Bioware is seriously underestimating what putting changes like this into the game may result in, and I think for the health of the game they ought to seriously reconsider.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Cancrizans

[RuQu]

I can understand what you are trying to say with the Ellis Island argument, but imo the Fleets are nothing at all like an Ellis Island situation. No matter IF the majority of defectors would come to the fleet...there would still be a much larger number of "normal" races there because IT IS A CENTER OF ACTIVITY for Republic/Empire ranging from missions to trade everything else in between.

 

Given what the fleets ACTUALLY are, you may see more cross overs than you might expect in other places, but most definitely not the imbalanced amount you are suggesting. For me the bottom line is I think we will see a grossly unrealistic situation develop not only on the fleets but in general, and it is all caused by this frivolously chosen and, frankly, outright silly decision Bioware is making to include things people never wanted and make no real sense from a Star Wars perspective as part of their Legacy system.

 

In my opinion this is creating a negative and unappealing impression of the Legacy system for a lot of people...and I say this based not only on conversations with people I know in game, but just reading how discussions about the topic seem to go in General chat and elsewhere. Whenever the topic comes up, there are quite a large number of people who are both baffled and concerned about these changes.

 

So I think Bioware is seriously underestimating what putting changes like this into the game may result in, and I think for the health of the game they ought to seriously reconsider.

 

1) Never underestimate the power of sampling bias. You think lots of people are concerned because people on the forums are complaining. Most people I know are excited for Legacy and busy leveling Imperial alts.

 

2) You think its nothing like Ellis Island. I think it is... in game we never see the day-to-day population, just the players coming and going. You can choose to think of it however you want. You are simply choosing a way that makes you unhappy...which is a bit crazy and entirely under your control.

 

3) Keep in mind, too, that it is not the center of activity for the whole Republic, just the Republic PLAYERS. Far more business and commerce happens on Coruscant in 10 minutes than could ever happen on the Fleet under any circumstances. The demographics of the population with business on the Fleet (a disproportionate number of Havoc Squad Commanding Officers for example) also undergo a selection bias based on who would pursue those kinds of activities. It just so happens than dissident Chiss and Purebloods who are shunned on the Core Worlds are more likely than others to take up arms against the Empire, so, again, you should expect them in disproportionate numbers on the Fleet compared to on the Core Worlds where most middle class citizens are happily leading their normal lives.

[Deyjarl]

Now that it has been confirmed that getting a character of any race to 50 will allow you to roll that race as any class, I have to ask: Bioware, what are you thinking?

 

This is a HORRIBLE idea. It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore

 

There were exceptions in the lore. For example an Hutt Jedi is in one part of the lore.

 

So no this does not make a mockery. You are being narrow minded.

[Deyjarl]

The issue is that with these changes, we are very likely to see many more cross over races than would ever be possible in a realistic scenario.

 

This isn't meant to be a realistic scenario.

 

 

Lets look at a Lord of the Rings Online example again. An MMO like that and not being able to play a hobbit would be a terrible mmo. But allowing them is going to likely create a huge population of hobbits leaving the Shire. It is a lore break that is necessary.

 

These exceptions are part of the Star Wars universe. They are giving players the option of being one of those exceptional examples of their race. Large numbers are going to be a necessary lore break.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Panzerbase]

The reason is simple, the Sith are more popular and by introducing them on the Republic sides the hope is the subs will increase and the populations will balance, cheap way to try and make that May earnings call shine like gold. Lore takes a back seat to money. Edited March 16, 2012 by Panzerbase

[RuQu]

The reason is simple, the Sith are more popular and by introducing them on the Republic sides the hope is the subs will increase and the populations will balance, cheap way to try and make that May earnings call shine like gold. Lore takes a back seat to money.

 

But why are the Imps more popular?

 

Is it because everyone really wants to be a Chiss or Pureblood? I don't have hard facts, but I would speculate no.

 

Far more likely it is due to more interest in their classes (Boba Fett/Palpatine/Vader vs Han/Luke), better stories, better animations, more polish, and the tendency of PvPers to play the "bad guy" faction.

 

The number of people who will switch main factions now that they can have a Republic Chiss is likely so small as to be completely unnoticed.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Bielduwyn]

But why are the Imps more popular?

 

Is it because everyone really wants to be a Chiss or Pureblood? I don't have hard facts, but I would speculate no.

 

My typical stroll across the Imperial Fleet has me encountering more (white skinned) humans than anything else, so I can vouch that the popularity of the Empire isn't due to the Chiss or Purebloods.

[CeruleanNite]

My typical stroll across the Imperial Fleet has me encountering more (white skinned) humans than anything else, so I can vouch that the popularity of the Empire isn't due to the Chiss or Purebloods.

 

I didnt choose Empire because of any race choices. I selected it because I wanted a Palpatine/Darth Vader/Boba Fett.

 

Now that I have played Empire for the past few months I have rolled Rep toons so I can experience that story line.

[ZORG]

Now that it has been confirmed that getting a character of any race to 50 will allow you to roll that race as any class, I have to ask: Bioware, what are you thinking?

 

This is a HORRIBLE idea. It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore, and will completely ruin the game's atmosphere and integrity. Simply from the perspective of a Republic player, I do not want to see a bunch of Purebloods and Chiss running around on Carrick Station, it will just look completely stupid.

 

It is lore breaking in the worst way and for the WORST reason: convenience. I for one am willing to forgo this "feature" until REAL new races are released...whether that be in the near future or several years down the road...or frankly...never.

 

This decision is so bad and so detrimental to the integrity of the game and even, given the fact that these games are being used these days as a source of "canon", to the Star Wars franchise as a whole, that this is something I would NEVER want to see in the game for any reason whatsoever.

 

For those who may think "well you have to have the race at level 50 to make one..." you should realize that that is an extremely minor limitation which will not significantly change the fact that you will be seeing an impossible number of these cross faction races running around once the patch hits.

 

I personally will not be able to suspend disbelief, and I ask that Bioware SERIOUSLY reconsiders this move, both for the health of the game and Star Wars as a whole. Star Wars is too significant and admired an IP to trifle with things like this simply so you can provide people with a "perk".

 

EDIT: Since so many people seem to want to pick and choose which aspects of this they want to respond to so they can have the last word without actually addressing the issue, and keep bringing up the notion that "there will always be X number of any race that switches to the other side etc. etc." without reading the 2 or 3 posts I made explaining why that is meaningless in the context of these changes, I will state reason that is so here.

 

Allowing that there will always be a percentage of a race that does not follow the normal political or ideological affiliations the majority holds...that is NOT what will be represented in the game if this change goes through. What we WILL see is an INORDINATE and UNBELIEVABLY large number of cross faction races, MUCH larger than anything that could EVER be explained by the idea that there will always be some who change sides.

 

That argument holds no water.

 

It seems that the clonewars animated series is breaking what some call the LORE rule that alot are accusing BW of. Today i watched an episode of the former sith apprentice VENTRIS now acting as a Bounty Hunter Hunting Down Darth Mauls Brother and in the process Saving Obi-Wan Kenobi. Then escaping with him. Obi-Wan even used one of Ventris's Sabers which was Red Till he got his back. He did say though HE prefers Blue.

 

So If a fully sanctioned series can have a Bounty Hunter that uses 2 SABERS AND THE FORCE. Why cant BW have family Trees with shared powers?

[PalawaJoko]

Guys imagine all the Light alignment Sith Pureblood Troopers running around. If that doesn't make straight mockery of Star Wars lore then what does? Edited March 17, 2012 by PalawaJoko

[Nessirin]

Hey you leave my sith miraluka alone.

[Maglon]

Sometimes I really wonder about you posters....

You know there's something called "free-will", if a Chiss doesn't want to be a part of the Empire or the Ascendancy he can defect, he has something called "choice" - do you know what that it is, cause I don't think you do. There are no nano-machines or implants inside him controlling his thoughts so please, shut up

 

^This FTW

[GusVIII]

I for love the complete irony of a Sith Jedi.