What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

[Blackardin]

They have done nothing.

 

And no, it's not okay to have not advanced the ball.

 

It's why the game is falling apart.

 

 

1. Game is not falling apart. It is a success already and promises to be an even greater success. Not sure where people are getting this notion, but no significant outlet agrees.

 

2. They have actually revolutionized aspects of the game, far in excess of any MMORPG to date. Not sure how someone can not see that.

 

At the forefront is the voice acting and cut scenes. Ones avatar now comes to life with personality.

 

Companions

 

Romancing and friendships with the companion of one's choice.

 

No more roaming the world farming, companions do so for us.

 

Innovative crafting advancing the crafting model even further.

 

Moded gear that can be utilized from level one and advanced as the player determines.

 

Space flight and battle with a ship that doubles as one's house

 

Though there are more, those alone are enough to credit them with a "well done" in regard to advancing the genre. If one can't see that it is because they simply do not want to.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Blackardin

[Blackardin]

Some would want TOR to be a tactical, squad-based "shoot-n-slash" (combination of shooter and hack-n-slash), which is what endgame instance-running, raiding, and PvP are. It has those elements, but it doesn't concentrate on them. (I've raided in past MMOs, but have done so casually, more for the people I raided with than with raiding itself)

 

Some would want TOR to be a simulator (sandbox). It is not that, nor did it ever be advertised as such. (I've played sandbox MMOs before, and never really got into them)

 

Others would want TOR to be an RPG in the MMO space. This is what it is, and, I for one, am glad.

 

Well stated. Agree.

[youwillburn]

Nothing aside from every minor npc being the fully voiced is innovative in this game imo. Just refining something that already exist is not innovation. Innovation would be something like the non targeting action combat DCUO had or having physx driven ragdolls like city of heroes.

[WutsInAName]

It runs fine on my computer at max... I just don't think the graphics are all that special and the gameplay is extremely lacking in my opinion. You have a different opinion/experience... that's fine... just like I have a different opinion and experience of SWTOR.

 

I don't and won't ever agree with you. Just leave it alone...

 

Ignorance is bliss. eh?

 

 

EQ2 has 2 to 3 times the amoutn of content of WoW for comparison. Has a way better crafting, broker, harvesting mechanics, the single best alternative advancement system were the first ones to do collectibles and achievements. lacking in game play? Sir you must be nuts if anything it has TOO MUCH gameplay.

 

Im not saying it is the best ever, far from it. But I do give credit where credit is due.

 

I am starting to see why you praise SWTOR so much, you just want be a mouse on a wheel chasing that piece of cheese. SWTOR does do that fine...until your level 50 for a couple weeks and you realize that your cheese has mold on it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by WutsInAName

[Icebaron]

Though there are more, those alone are enough to credit them with a "well done" in regard to advancing the genre. If one can't see that it is because they simply do not want to.

 

that is because they are all half done or actually bad.

 

At the forefront is the voice acting and cut scenes. Ones avatar now comes to life with personality. - British evil guy or pansy do gooder. What if I don't actually like the guy?

 

Companions - High maintenance pets that whine and you have to gear up in addition to yourself. Don't get to pick them either, whether you like em or not. And everyone of your class has the same one.

 

Romancing and friendships with the companion of one's choice. - What choice? Most classes have ONE romancable companion. A few have two. Not to mention you are crossing a dangerous line making a romancable AI in place of people interacting with live people. This just further pushes the anti social nature of the game.

 

No more roaming the world farming, companions do so for us. - You mean for crafting? Because you still gotta go out there to do any killing. Another reason the AH is a state of bleh btw. I made money farming mats people were too lazy to farm themselves. Now all I guy has gotta do is send his companion.

 

Innovative crafting advancing the crafting model even further. - Huh? I miss something about crafting?

 

Moded gear that can be utilized from level one and advanced as the player determines. - Done half ***. Social gear you have almost no way of getting at the level you are when you find it. Light armor only social gear. They did good, but could of done better as with everything else in SWTOR, just shy of what could be.

 

Space flight and battle with a ship that doubles as one's house - I simply cannot believe you brought up space flight or player housing. Failrail is fail, should of done better. And why do people want player houseing? Think about it. Why would one want a place to call their own. What can they do in their home? Non customizable, static world is just basically the same as the hanger you go to to get to it. Just a place to be alone.

[XxPetexX]

Games don't have to push the genre forward to be successful or good.

Justlook at MW 1,2,3.

 

This game has succeeded in implementing a somewhat interesting story element. But at a cost. That cost is that it hardlt feels like an MMO at all and more like a single-player game with multi-player.

 

Problem is this game is backtracking MORE than it is breaking new ground.

An MMO that launches in 2012 without customizable UI or combat logs? and that is so sharded you rarely see any other players on the WAY too big planets.

[Kraye]

1. Game is not falling apart. It is a success already and promises to be an even greater success. Not sure where people are getting this notion, but no significant outlet agrees.

Wrong, the majority of servers are dead, "Standard" means nothing, crossing paths with another player is a treat.

 

2. They have actually revolutionized aspects of the game, far in excess of any MMORPG to date. Not sure how someone can not see that.

 

At the forefront is the voice acting and cut scenes. Ones avatar now comes to life with personality. Voice acting has been done in many, mnay games, just not to this extent, which gets old real fast.

 

Companions

 

Romancing and friendships with the companion of one's choice.

Peeps get married in tons of games, romance with a npc, lol, big deal.

 

No more roaming the world farming, companions do so for us.

Until a player gains huge credits the option to have your pets farm all your mats is not realistic when each mission ahs a chance to fail while still costing more than the return.

 

Innovative crafting advancing the crafting model even further.

There is NOTHING innovative about TOR crafting....nothing.

 

Moded gear that can be utilized from level one and advanced as the player determines.

Been done before and will again.

 

Space flight and battle with a ship that doubles as one's house

 

A house that has NO CUSTOMIZATION and no real purpose other than cut-scenes to other areas. A house you are stuck with from the moment you aquire it until the games plug is pulled, stagnant. Space combat is universally considered absolutely awful and the single biggest mistake in TOR.

 

Though there are more, those alone are enough to credit them with a "well done" in regard to advancing the genre. If one can't see that it is because they simply do not want to.

 

If SWTOR had launched about 5-6 years ago then it would have been a great success, however, it did not but still looks and acts like it did, no features no innovation wrapped up in linear paths that treat the player like a rat in a lifeless maze.

[AJediKnight]

If SWTOR had launched about 5-6 years ago then it would have been a great success, however, it did not but still looks and acts like it did, no features no innovation wrapped up in linear paths that treat the player like a rat in a lifeless maze.

 

This man knows his stuff. +1.

[BCBull]

 

I just read the review from game informer (they are the number one gaming magazine in the world), and they too gave it high marks across the board, even boasting, "the best MMO I've ever played". We only hear of its failure on this board and obscure blogs posted on the internet.

 

To be fair that review was given in December.

[Drallbait]

1. Game is not falling apart. It is a success already and promises to be an even greater success. Not sure where people are getting this notion, but no significant outlet agrees.

 

2. They have actually revolutionized aspects of the game, far in excess of any MMORPG to date. Not sure how someone can not see that.

 

At the forefront is the voice acting and cut scenes. Ones avatar now comes to life with personality.

 

Companions

 

Romancing and friendships with the companion of one's choice.

 

No more roaming the world farming, companions do so for us.

 

Innovative crafting advancing the crafting model even further.

 

Moded gear that can be utilized from level one and advanced as the player determines.

 

Space flight and battle with a ship that doubles as one's house

 

Though there are more, those alone are enough to credit them with a "well done" in regard to advancing the genre. If one can't see that it is because they simply do not want to.

 

 

Exactly!

 

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that are set in their ways with MMOs. They want the formula they are used to, so they will not agree, and sight why it doesn't match up with existing MMOs, etc.

 

It is always like that with innovation. People get used to Horse and Carriage, and they tell you why Combustion engines suck.

 

 

However, it won't be long before MMOs without saved conversation choices, VO, companions that are more than just pets, etc. are required for the MMO genre. Then people will give the nod to SWTOR for bringing those things to the multi-player world.

[Icebaron]

However, it won't be long before MMOs without saved conversation choices, VO, companions that are more than just pets, etc. are required for the MMO genre. Then people will give the nod to SWTOR for bringing those things to the multi-player world.

 

Conversation choices are horrible when they are meaningless. Now, if my choices are;

A. open the red door

B. open the blue door

C. dont open any door

 

then maybe it would work, but as long as my choices are;

 

A. Yea

B. Sure

C. No Problem

 

then the choice is an illusion that serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

And companions annoy the living hell out of me, there is a reason not everyone played pet classes in the past....some just don't like pets.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Exactly!

 

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that are set in their ways with MMOs. They want the formula they are used to, so they will not agree, and sight why it doesn't match up with existing MMOs, etc.

 

It is always like that with innovation. People get used to Horse and Carriage, and they tell you why Combustion engines suck.

 

 

However, it won't be long before MMOs without saved conversation choices, VO, companions that are more than just pets, etc. are required for the MMO genre. Then people will give the nod to SWTOR for bringing those things to the multi-player world.

 

Those who dislike TOR would likely credit later iterations for doing it "right." For example, some are already saying that GW2 does story-driven content better, despite not actually having played it. (If Copernicus, which is also slated to be story-driven, was further along and having more info, they'd probably say the same things about it). Or, they can conveniently forget about TOR's earlier pedigree, similar to elements that originated in EQ, D&D, Warhammer, and others being credited to WoW.

[Drallbait]

Conversation choices are horrible when they are meaningless. Now, if my choices are;

A. open the red door

B. open the blue door

C. dont open any door

 

then maybe it would work, but as long as my choices are;

 

A. Yea

B. Sure

C. No Problem

 

then the choice is an illusion that serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

And companions annoy the living hell out of me, there is a reason not everyone played pet classes in the past....some just don't like pets.

 

Its true some conversations choices don't effect the immediate outcome of a quest, but many of them do, and a few effect whether you get quests, meet people or gain items in the future. Along with your companion affection of you and the alignment system.

 

So no, the choices aren't all the same as far as how your story plays out afterwards.

 

But for me, even the choices that all lead to similar outcomes are great. For my Sith Inquisitor, it feels right to tell my Boss to stuff it because I'm going to kill her later anyway. For my Jedi Knight, it feels right to bow before my master and thank them imparting their wisdom on my unworthiness.

 

 

In any event, for me, it absolutely kills "Accept Quest" vs "Cancel" which is what most MMOs have to offer. I can't even do that anymore.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Drallbait

[Vecke]

Conversation choices are horrible when they are meaningless. Now, if my choices are;

A. open the red door

B. open the blue door

C. dont open any door

 

then maybe it would work, but as long as my choices are;

 

A. Yea

B. Sure

C. No Problem

 

then the choice is an illusion that serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

And companions annoy the living hell out of me, there is a reason not everyone played pet classes in the past....some just don't like pets.

 

Fair points.

 

But in the interest of this OP (how this game is pushing the genre forward), we probably should recognize that TOR's current implementation probably isn't how it'll be implemented in future games. Companions, full VOs, story, and choices won't likely be what they are now. TOR's implementation is essentially a prototype that will almost certainly be improved upon and experimented with in many various ways.

 

The important part is that BW has created (IMO) a new minimum standard with these features. In the same way some people are saying BW took a step backwards by not including "basic features" like LFD and cross-realm PVP, I think many future MMO players will claim games that don't include full VOs, etc, (or improve upon them) are equally taking a step backwards.

 

What many people on this thread seem to overlook is that BW can be a let down in some areas, yet still move the genre forward in others.

[Dezzi]

Fair points.

 

But in the interest of this OP (how this game is pushing the genre forward), we probably should recognize that TOR's current implementation probably isn't how it'll be implemented in future games. Companions, full VOs, story, and choices won't likely be what they are now. TOR's implementation is essentially a prototype that will almost certainly be improved upon and experimented with in many various ways.

 

The important part is that BW has created (IMO) a new minimum standard with these features. In the same way some people are saying BW took a step backwards by not including "basic features" like LFD and cross-realm PVP, I think many future MMO players will claim games that don't include full VOs, etc, (or improve upon them) are equally taking a step backwards.

 

What many people on this thread seem to overlook is that BW can be a let down in some areas, yet still move the genre forward in others.

 

Don't you think that's kind of a slippery slope though?

 

It'd be like saying we owe credit to the Titanic's shipwrights for getting us positive changes to maritime law.

 

Put another, less dramatic way, you could argue that since you can be marginally successful with baby steps, there's no need to push the envelope.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dezzi

[Icebaron]

Fair points.

 

But in the interest of this OP (how this game is pushing the genre forward), we probably should recognize that TOR's current implementation probably isn't how it'll be implemented in future games. Companions, full VOs, story, and choices won't likely be what they are now. TOR's implementation is essentially a prototype that will almost certainly be improved upon and experimented with in many various ways.

 

The important part is that BW has created (IMO) a new minimum standard with these features. In the same way some people are saying BW took a step backwards by not including "basic features" like LFD and cross-realm PVP, I think many future MMO players will claim games that don't include full VOs, etc, (or improve upon them) are equally taking a step backwards.

 

What many people on this thread seem to overlook is that BW can be a let down in some areas, yet still move the genre forward in others.

 

Maybe, but first SWTOR would have to be a success. The company built the most expensive MMO ever made because of all that voice acting. If they are stuck at 500k subs six months after releasae, what developer is going to be willing to sink that kinda of money into another MMO for a western audience?

[XplaguesX]

nothing really.

 

It added story, and the convo system, but it dosnt really change much to the story.

 

Other then that, the world sharding is a step backwards.

[Vecke]

Don't you think that's kind of a slippery slope though?

 

It'd be like saying we owe credit to the Titanic's shipwrights for getting us positive changes to maritime law.

 

Put another, less dramatic way, you could argue that since you can be marginally successful with baby steps, there's no need to push the envelope.

 

Maybe I did a poor job of explaining myself. I think these features are great - as they are. I love them. But I also think that if you follow the natural progression of MMOs, these features will almost certainly be improved upon with future games. But the features this game has now put down are the minimum standard for many people's views on future MMOs.

 

I'm not saying their failure means that future efforts to prevent their failure should be credited to them (which is your examples).

 

I'm saying they've succeeded, but it's not perfect. It could definitely be improved upon and most certainly will be improved upon.

[Dezzi]

Maybe, but first SWTOR would have to be a success. The company built the most expensive MMO ever made because of all that voice acting. If they are stuck at 500k subs six months after releasae, what developer is going to be willing to sink that kinda of money into another MMO for a western audience?

 

Good point.

 

TOR is just the most recent example of how when more money is invested in a game, the less risks the developers take. That is to say that because investors have a lot of money tied up in the project, and because they want their investment back--and then some--developers have to prioritize features and gameplay based on what's already proven to be successful in other titles. Which of course we all know isn't always the greatest idea...

 

This is why I'm convinced it will take an indie developer to truly innovate and to create the next big MMO.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dezzi

[Vecke]

Maybe, but first SWTOR would have to be a success. The company built the most expensive MMO ever made because of all that voice acting. If they are stuck at 500k subs six months after releasae, what developer is going to be willing to sink that kinda of money into another MMO for a western audience?

 

I don't think it has to be a success at all, as long as enough people experience those specific features to start expecting them in future MMOs, which has probably (in my opinion) already happened.

[Cordelia]

 

This is why I'm convinced it will take an indie developer to truly innovate and to create the next big MMO.

 

This is what I believe too. The current MMO's play it too safe, they imitate each other ,the genre has become stale. It's going to take a company prepared to take risks and truly innovate to create something that stands out from the crowd.

[Cavadus]

Companion involvement is a very big one. People overlook this for some reason, but its definitely a genre first.

 

No, it's not. STO beat them to the punch. And GW before that with the heroes.

[KahnyaGnorc]

This is what I believe too. The current MMO's play it too safe, they imitate each other ,the genre has become stale. It's going to take a company prepared to take risks and truly innovate to create something that stands out from the crowd.

 

When anything reaches a level of size and maturity, change becomes in smaller increments. It applies with genres, industries, people, organizations, etc. That is just the natural progression of things. (Look at aircraft. In the early days of flight, you had a wide variety of designs and fast, radical change in those designs. Today's aircraft are not much different in design to those manufactured post-WW2.)

[Tarka]

To me, all TOR has done is add MORE voice over to missions / quests and more dialogue options.

 

Both of which have been done before (AOC) to a lesser degree.

 

Bioware are keeping well and truely within their comfort zone, at least in the short term.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Tarka

[Icebaron]

I don't think it has to be a success at all, as long as enough people experience those specific features to start expecting them in future MMOs, which has probably (in my opinion) already happened.

 

Wait and see what happens with upcoming titles like GW2, Tera and TSW. Depending on what they do and how well they do it.

 

For example, Tera gets a million subs with absolute crap quests and fantanstic combat, while spending a fraction of what SWTOR spent on 500k subs. NOBODY is going to feel forced into doing VO in their games.

 

But say nobody does any good, GW2 blows, Tera blows and TSW blows. Then maybe future developers will try to make it appear voice acted. I doubt they will go down this multiple choice voice responses again, but I can see every NPC having dialog in future games.

 

The game to watch for here would be Wildstar, fairly large title early in it's development enough to make serious changes. They start talking about voice acting you will know SWTOR had an impact. If they don't, you will know the industry feels it was wasted money on SWTOR's part.