What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

[Icebaron]

1. They made me care about my actually character and the leveling process. The game truly does start at level 1 instead of level 50.

 

Most mmo's start at endgame. SWTOR ends at endgame. That is not innovation, that is a flawed design.

[dnomz]

Absolutely nothing.

 

The only thing unique about this game is that everything is fully voiced, and tbh it's only cool the first playthrough. Then you just get tired of spacebarring.

 

This game is in no way innovative as they claimed it would be. Jedi Guardian = exactly the same as my Warrior in WoW, and the raids well they claimed it's not heroic to beat on 1 boss with many people but look what we end up doing in Ops...

[ConanArthurLager]

1. Storyline

 

Can't argue with that. The stories are good so far (I don't expect them to win the Nobel price for literature or even oscars, though). A bit more choice would be welcome.

 

 

2. Voice acting

 

There are 20 year old CRPGs for MS-DOS which already had voice acting for dialogs with important NPCs. That, of course doesn't compare with SWToR which offers this on a larger scale.

 

 

3. Companion involvement.

 

Older CRPGs, where you managed a whole party of adventurers, already offered that. But the tactics and strategy aspect was by far better in those games compared to questing in MMOs.

 

 

4. crafting changes.

 

Dunno if the crafting as is, is really a benefit. You send your companions on tasks (feels like a 20 year old SSI strategy game where you sent your heroes to retrieve artifacts and gear so you could focus on the strategy part).

 

If you have enough money then you wouldn't even need to leave your fleet. Just send companions. You could idle around, minimize the game's client, ... ... and only check if the companions returned. I admit the crafting part is really and I mean really easy and very convenient. But ... somehow I don't know. Maybe too much catering for the lazy.

 

 

5. Account Security

 

Not every problem can be solved by technology. This is one of those problems. There will always remain a risk that your account may be compromised (e.g. through social engineering, bugs or technical means).

 

The authenticator and the security questions won't help you if you tell someone else (e.g. a friend, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, wife, husband, etc.) your passwords and the answers to the security questions.

Bioware can't help you if your smartphone, which is used as key generator, gets compromised.

[dnomz]

Full Voice acting...that's about it.

 

The graphics are pretty piss poor and they left basically all the features off that are must haves for todays MMO's. The UI itself is just prehistoric

 

I don't really care about graphics since i'm more of a "gameplay before graphics" type, but even that is **** in this game.

Edited February 29, 2012 by dnomz

[Cavadus]

The MMO genre is like the Battle of Midway: we're just waiting for an aircraft carrier to prove itself while all of the dinosaurs still mistakenly believe it's the battleship that dominates the sea.

 

I'm waiting for that aircraft carrier which will once and for all kill the WoW model of game so I don't have to put up with awful and boring regurgitations of the same game anymore.

 

At any rate, to the OP: TOR has done nothing to advance the genre. In fact, if anything it's set the genre back though it's inevitable decline in subs past the six month mark will all but prove that the era of the WoW-clone is officially dead.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Cavadus

[JerokTalram]

1. WoW did it. Warlocks were required to tank mage boss in Gruul's Liar.

 

That's stretching it and not the same. Often your character will have to fill roles that they don't normally do to complete certain quests. Quite a few times my Swordsman in SWG would have to tank for a group because we had no Jedi, TKs or Fencers. I would consider Swordsman much more of a DPS class than a Tank because of the limited defense and hard hitting offense.

 

Also a few times my DPS Sage has had to take the Healer role. Does that make her a healer.

 

Those Warlocks were no more tanks than usual. They are ranged DPS, filling a unnatural role to complete a quest.

[darthtoph]

You got it all wrong, the trinity is still there. It's just not that set in stone, as with most MMOs. There are still tanks that tank better than others and DPS that DPS better than others and healers that heal better than others. And since perfect class balance is impossible to achieve one will never get entirely rid of the trinity anyway.

 

Personally I like the fact that players will have to take responsibility for their actions and cooperate to win. Players will all have to take turns at tanking and healing to achieve victory, at least to begin with. Which is a nice change from the current design of players repeating the same class pattern and mechanics over and over.

Edited February 29, 2012 by darthtoph

[SWImara]

I am looking at other games... It is not different.

Ok well this appears just an issue of preference I guess. I would love to see all future games do what SWTOR has done with character story. It is genuinely the first MMO I've played that has felt like it deserved the RPG label.

 

Bioware has the same shtick over and over. If we compare it to other MMO's in this one single respect, it edges them out SLIGHTLY purely because the characters talk out loud.

 

Compare it to other MMO's throughout time in almost every other aspect and it falls short.

Your opinion on this is clear however baseless I may find it.

 

Compare this MMO's story to that of stories in other genres (which according to some is unfair) and it is absolute tripe.

Stories in other mediums, not other genres. Films and books are not the same medium as video games. Yes you will find other games that top SWTOR in story, but they are single player (there you might be able to argue from the genre point of view).

 

 

A lot of action movies copy core concepts from one another and yes that does make them extremely shallow and boring.

 

The ones that are set apart have something different about them, usually it multi-faceted characters that are actually interesting.

It is by no means just action movies that do this. We tell the same stories, it is arguably our nature but certainly the business model of entertainment industries. The subtle differences are what tends to make classics rather than some huge revolutionary shift in style.

 

Regarding your multi-faceted characters that are interesting bit, I couldn't agree more. That is one of the things that makes me put a book in the pile I'll recommend to friends rather than the pile I'll just donate to the library and forget about. Where we differ I suspect is in claiming that SWTOR's characters are one dimensional and or not moving.

[Daeborn]

What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

 

Allowed a troll like BC to post?

[Arkerus]

Most mmo's start at endgame. SWTOR ends at endgame. That is not innovation, that is a flawed design.

 

Say what you want...but I LOVE the early game to end game. My character starts at level 1 and I personally love it.

Oh and in case you didn't notice the game has 2 raids, tons of hard modes and end game PvP.

 

 

I guess thats not end game? If it isn't, please elaborate on what is. If you don't elaborate on what end game should be then you are just regurgitating crap that other people said.

[princey]

While I agree with you, to be fair, DDO and DCUO also removed auto attack.

 

There's auto attack in DDO. You can toggle your basic attack to automatically fire. My wife did it all the time.

 

 

Another innovation no one's mentioned here yet: social point system, group convos.

Edited February 29, 2012 by princey

[Icebaron]

Say what you want...but I LOVE the early game to end game. My character starts at level 1 and I personally love it.

Oh and in case you didn't notice the game has 2 raids, tons of hard modes and end game PvP.

 

 

I guess thats not end game? If it isn't, please elaborate on what is. If you don't elaborate on what end game should be then you are just regurgitating crap that other people said.

 

I'll clarify my opinion for you then. The leveling in this game is more fun the then endgame. How is this a good idea to keep people subbed?

 

It's like a good movie ends, then the credits roll. Who stays to watch the credits? Movie is over, it was awesome. But nobody subscribes to watch the same movie over and over again.

[VenthiosLestaran]

As a person who's played MMO's since he was a small child. I can tell you what BioWare and TOR did to push the genre forward. They made leveling less of a borefest the first time through. I don't think they did it exactly right, simply due to the lack of options in places to level and linearity of the game itself, however as the first hammer mark on the unforged blade of the future in storytelling in an MMO? It's a strike in the right direction.

 

Games in the future will incorporate more story into their games than before, and tell it in ways that players will pay attention. I suspect there is a healthy middle ground to be had between story and game play that will eventually be discovered.

 

GW2 is integrating voiced personal story into the game, albeit much less of it than SWTOR - but maybe in the future we'll see games that balance it right. Good times ahead I think, no matter what happens to SWTOR.

[Vydor_HC]

I think Bioware has with SWTOR pushed towards a more single player perspective which I do not think benefits the genre at all.

[VenthiosLestaran]

I think Bioware has with SWTOR pushed towards a more single player perspective which I do not think benefits the genre at all.

 

Their attempt was amazingly flawed. However, doing it alone was risky and worth a shot. Future games, and maybe even this one, will change their path and improve upon the idea. That's how it's supposed to work.

[Vecke]

The thing is, most sound business people don't want to be the first to do something. It's too risky. They want to be second. They want to take a model that has been proven to be successful, then tweak it just enough to call it their own. This isn't "dirty business." It's just how business typically works. Let the other guy take the real risks. MMO developers (including Blizzard) follow this principle.

 

Genuine innovation isn't something that can be assigned to a committee and then worked into a business plan. Significant innovation is inspired. I might be missing some others, but I can think of three primary games that were genuinely inspired. They had varying degrees of success.

 

EQ (while technically not the first MMO) was inspired. EQ was born from people wanting to truly represent a table top RPG in a 3D world setting. EQ wasn't born from them looking at another game and thinking, "We should tap into that market." It was born from them genuinely wanting people to experience the awe that RPGers get around a D and D table.

 

SWG was inspired. For better or worse, it was Ralph Koster's inspiration. He wanted to create a true sandbox. He wanted to design a universe where players could be the "everyman" of Star Wars. He believed if he created a genuine universe, he could hand that to the players and just say, "Here." For various reasons (some his fault, some not his fault), that dream didn't work out so well.

 

I personally think AoC was inspired. The devs genuinely wanted to take MMOs and make them for grown-ups. They wanted a visceral, brutal game that truly captured the harsh reality created by Robert E. Howard. As with SWG, it didn't work out so well (for various reasons).

 

There are some others, I'm sure, but I don't have experience in playing them (for example, I hear Eve would fit, but I never played it).

 

Most other MMOs (IMO) were business decisions. They really just said, "What if we made an MMO based on X. I bet that would sell!"

 

I think SWTOR is a mix of both. I think TOR - first and foremost - had the business approach. It was, "If we just make a good, simple grass-roots MMO with the Star Wars name, it will sell."

 

But I personally think that Bioware brought some genuine inspiration. Bioware brought the idea that an MMO should incorporate what they believed were the best elements from their single player RPGs. They made the core of their MMO about the story. I think the story implementation (while not perfect) was an inspired move and a logical step forward, and I think it marks the beginning of story being a fundamental element of MMOs, instead of being a side feature.

 

Just my long winded opinion.

[Vecke]

There's auto attack in DDO. You can toggle your basic attack to automatically fire. My wife did it all the time.

 

 

Another innovation no one's mentioned here yet: social point system, group convos.

 

Wow. I played DDO for years and was completely unaware of that. I feel goofy.

[Arkerus]

I'll clarify my opinion for you then. The leveling in this game is more fun the then endgame. How is this a good idea to keep people subbed?

 

It's like a good movie ends, then the credits roll. Who stays to watch the credits? Movie is over, it was awesome. But nobody subscribes to watch the same movie over and over again.

 

OK. Now that you clarified that statement...

 

I'll say that ANY game that actually has an enjoyable leveling experience is A+ in my book. I HATED leveling in WoW, and FFXI, because it was just a chore. This game does it well, better than anyone.

 

You are claiming that the end game is worse than leveling? While I don't think that is a fair assessment at all (considering you are max leve and you have to do the max level stuffl)....I can see how you might want more of the leveling experience AT end game.

 

 

For now it makes no difference to me.

 

I will gladly use this model for now.

[Icebaron]

As a person who's played MMO's since he was a small child. I can tell you what BioWare and TOR did to push the genre forward. They made leveling less of a borefest the first time through. I don't think they did it exactly right, simply due to the lack of options in places to level and linearity of the game itself, however as the first hammer mark on the unforged blade of the future in storytelling in an MMO? It's a strike in the right direction.

 

Games in the future will incorporate more story into their games than before, and tell it in ways that players will pay attention. I suspect there is a healthy middle ground to be had between story and game play that will eventually be discovered.

 

GW2 is integrating voiced personal story into the game, albeit much less of it than SWTOR - but maybe in the future we'll see games that balance it right. Good times ahead I think, no matter what happens to SWTOR.

 

I'll agree with this. Future mmo games will probably be forced to deliver their stories in better ways then the past quest text based stuff. But I imagine that would be more along the lines of cutscenes and cinematics rather than interactive voice acted dialog.

 

Something along the lines of Half Life and Half Life 2. Where people talk to you but you are not talking back. Way more immersive that way because the minute my british guys says something I would never say all my immersion is broken.

[VenthiosLestaran]

The thing is, most sound business people don't want to be the first to do something. It's too risky. They want to be second. They want to take a model that has been proven to be successful, then tweak it just enough to call it their own. This isn't "dirty business." It's just how business typically works. Let the other guy take the real risks. MMO developers (including Blizzard) follow this principle.

 

Genuine innovation isn't something that can be assigned to a committee and then worked into a business plan. Significant innovation is inspired. I might be missing some others, but I can think of three primary games that were genuinely inspired. They had varying degrees of success.

 

EQ (while technically not the first MMO) was inspired. EQ was born from people wanting to truly represent a table top RPG in a 3D world setting. EQ wasn't born from them looking at another game and thinking, "We should tap into that market." It was born from them genuinely wanting people to experience the awe that RPGers get around a D and D table.

 

SWG was inspired. For better or worse, it was Ralph Koster's inspiration. He wanted to create a true sandbox. He wanted to design a universe where players could be the "everyman" of Star Wars. He believed if he created a genuine universe, he could hand that to the players and just say, "Here." For various reasons (some his fault, some not his fault), that dream didn't work out so well.

 

I personally think AoC was inspired. The devs genuinely wanted to take MMOs and make them for grown-ups. They wanted a visceral, brutal game that truly captured the harsh reality created by Robert E. Howard. As with SWG, it didn't work out so well (for various reasons).

 

There are some others, I'm sure, but I don't have experience in playing them (for example, I hear Eve would fit, but I never played it).

 

Most other MMOs (IMO) were business decisions. They really just said, "What if we made an MMO based on X. I bet that would sell!"

 

I think SWTOR is a mix of both. I think TOR - first and foremost - had the business approach. It was, "If we just make a good, simple grass-roots MMO with the Star Wars name, it will sell."

 

But I personally think that Bioware brought some genuine inspiration. Bioware brought the idea that an MMO should incorporate what they believed were the best elements from their single player RPGs. They made the core of their MMO about the story. I think the story implementation (while not perfect) was an inspired move and a logical step forward, and I think it marks the beginning of story being a fundamental element of MMOs, instead of being a side feature.

 

Just my long winded opinion.

 

Agreed in most parts. Large companies with huge financing and backing stand the most to lose, thus they're more likely to play it safe. We'll look towards smaller developers to produce games that have a higher risk vs reward. Everyone should just remain pragmatic about the genre. Change is coming, it's here now actually.

[VenthiosLestaran]

I'll agree with this. Future mmo games will probably be forced to deliver their stories in better ways then the past quest text based stuff. But I imagine that would be more along the lines of cutscenes and cinematics rather than interactive voice acted dialog.

 

Something along the lines of Half Life and Half Life 2. Where people talk to you but you are not talking back. Way more immersive that way because the minute my british guys says something I would never say all my immersion is broken.

 

Pretty much the way GW2 has chosen to tell their story. Quick cut scene interaction in which the player is along for the ride. Choosing your dialog is a fun thing to do, but overall it needs more refining. Less choice can sometimes be better overall in some areas. Just like everything it's going to take refinement.

 

We'll see how it turns out. I can't blame BioWare for trying.

[Vydor_HC]

Their attempt was amazingly flawed. However, doing it alone was risky and worth a shot. Future games, and maybe even this one, will change their path and improve upon the idea. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

Yes, even mistakes can be learning opportunities for the future.

[SWImara]

Another innovation no one's mentioned here yet: social point system, group convos.

I am actually disappointed in myself for missing this. Back when I used to run more instances I found the group conversations one of the more enjoyable additions to the game. Used to rave to my friends about them, unfortunately I am not too huge on PvE dungeon runs etc. Definitely a nice new addition with potential to do really neat things in the future.

[Dillingor]

Companion involvement is a very big one. People overlook this for some reason, but its definitely a genre first. Hirelings and voiceless tag-alongs in other MMOs do not count. This is pushing the companion forward in MMOs, DEFINITELY.

 

The personal story, context to quests, VO for every NPC. This is pushing the genre forward. It's been done before to a much lesser degree, yes, but as I said, this is pushing that metric FORWARD. It has not been done this well in any game previous. No where even CLOSE. No, not even Conan. Maybe if they continued what they had on Tortage with the rest of the game you could argue that, but even then, this is far better.

 

Those are two really big things. You can't dispute either. Sure maybe you don't like them, or they don't appeal to you, but that doesn't discredit them in any way.

 

Another, smaller mention is Huttball. Yes, similar PvP arenas have been done before, however not with the announcing that is actually relevant to what is going on during the match. "Rotworms Score" "Frog Dogs have the ball" "Terrible Pass" etc. This adds to the experience making it more engaging, and interactive. This is pushing the PvP battlegrounds experience forward in the genre as well.

 

Again, your enjoyment of Huttball doesn't change the FACT that it's new, innovative, and likely to be "copied" in the future by other developers because it is very useful, and pushes the genre forward.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Dillingor

[Icebaron]

OK. Now that you clarified that statement...

 

I'll say that ANY game that actually has an enjoyable leveling experience is A+ in my book. I HATED leveling in WoW, and FFXI, because it was just a chore. This game does it well, better than anyone.

 

You are claiming that the end game is worse than leveling? While I don't think that is a fair assessment at all (considering you are max leve and you have to do the max level stuffl)....I can see how you might want more of the leveling experience AT end game.

 

 

For now it makes no difference to me.

 

I will gladly use this model for now.

 

How about this, they put as much energy and ambition into things to do at endgame as they did for the leveling process? Make it like most MMO's when you reach level cap. It becomes a different game. Different goals.

 

The problem I have is it 'seems to me' that all their energy was put in the leveling voice acting dialog and EVERYTHING else is an afterthought slapped in there.

 

Space on rails? Really?

Player houseing you can't decorate? Why do people want player housing in the first place. If I just wanted a static instance that I could be alone in I would hang out in my hanger. Same thing.

 

Two warzones. How many planets? How long does it take to make a warzone compared to an entire planet filled with quests and more voice acted dialog. There should be ten or twenty warzones.

 

This is a leveling game.