What has BioWare & TOR done to push the genre forward?

[darthtoph]

The implementation is new. DDO doesn't have companions, it has mercenaries. As does EQ and EQ 2. In no other game on the MMO market, does a pet or mercenary play an integral part of your character's story. In no other MMO do pets or meercenaries give you quests. In no other MMO do pets or mercenaries craft for you.

 

No other MMO has made story it's primary element and implemented cutscenes to the degree that SWTOR has.

 

You can dislike these things and their impact may not be great, but the implementation is - by definition - an innovation.

 

If these things aren't innovations, what do you consider an innovation? Something that anybody can't do exactly what you're doing with these features. They may not be great innovations (that's subjective), but they are innovations.

 

I dunno. There are several MMOs out there with companions. They may or may not affect your storyline directly or craft for you but that's about it. I played a MMO once that had companions that gave you both quests and loot(!) but can't remember its name.

 

ARGO Online alone had companions that acted as tanks or DPS companions or even healing companions. You could choose which one to use. You had to level them up (own level bar), micromanage them and even buy skills to them. Or you could program them using (what I think was) 3 hotbars worth of macros.

 

They also evolved while leveling them, and went from tiny cute pets or creatures to savage beasts.

 

I'm pretty sure ARGO Online is far from being the only MMO together with SWTOR to have pets/companions whatever to interact with you and pull stuff that benefits you - the player.

 

Yes, SWTOR gave us some innovation when it comes to cutscenes and companions but at the same time is lacking tons where it really matters.

Edited February 29, 2012 by darthtoph

[Vecke]

I think people want innovation in the MMO genre because they recognize that the current generation is both stagnant and extremely lacking.

 

I do think that SWTOR has pushed the genre forward, but in such minimal ways overall that it's barely worth mentioning. Companions are nice, but basically it's just a more robust implementation of pets from other games. Stories are great but again it's just an improved implementation of basically the same thing that has come before. The basic mechanics of the game and the specific implementations very much put it into the WoW-clone category.

 

Innovation is more likely to come from smaller games that need to take more chances in order to carve out a niche. Big games with big budgets, heavy content, and lots of polish can play it safer and have success. Once someone else innovates something that works, the big boys will follow in their footsteps, do it better, and rake in the money.

 

However, I am interested to see if Blizzard can shake things up and be innovative with Titan. I have my doubts though. it sort of sounds like it may be an alternate path of MMOs, and not a new path.

 

I agree with this totally. It will be a smaller company that changes the basic paradigm of MMOs. I think that's because of WoW.

 

I'm not bashing WoW; I think it did some great things for the genre. But it also put a massive roadblock on innovation.

 

Before WoW, MMO developers weren't afraid to explore the market and experiment with other gameplay mechanics. SWG is a good example. It had no levels and you weren't locked into anything. If you became a master Pistoleer, then decided you wanted to become something else, you could. You could even play the game without ever firing a single shot or fighting a single NPC. There were entire classes that were nonviolent.

 

But when WoW became the monster hit it became, it basically made all developers look at it and say, "That is the model to success. We can vary from it a little, but that basic model is what we have to stick to."

 

It even caused SWG to change from the unique system it had to a system that fit within that model.

 

Now, the only companies (IMO) that are going to radically change the stale mechanics of MMOs will be companies that are willing to accept that their game may just end up being a small niche game. With that acknowledgement will come freedom that the "we must make bazillions" developers won't have.

[Icebaron]

Agreed. I made a thread awhile back say no mmo after 2012 will be success withot voice acting.

 

I dunno if I buy that. Truth is the VO has so little to do with the long term gameplay that six months from now when this game is hovering at 400k subscribers and still dropping, gaming companies are going to realize that people spend more time fighting monsters then engaging in stories, and that is where they will need to shine.

[WutsInAName]

Story and V/O, but they did nothing to advance end game... that's the issue for everyone in the universe... j/k, me anyways!

 

 

Sorry but games had story and VO WAY before SWTOR.

 

EQ2 had a ton of voice over. just not 'completly' voiced over. It also STILL has better graphics and was released what in 2004-3 even? EQ2 really was an MMO gem that a lot of people missed cause of the SOE hate.

[jinxsters]

they never billed the game as inovated if you followed the game you would know that.

 

the voice over is all they really did that was different everythen else is what wow did took from other mmos.

 

as for GW2 reinventing MMOs we will wait and see how it works AoC did that and it failed

[Vecke]

I dunno. There are several MMOs out there with companions. They may or may not affect your storyline directly or craft for you but that's about it. I played a MMO once that had companions that gave you both quests and loot(!) but can't remember its name.

 

ARGO Online alone had companions that acted as tanks or DPS companions or even healing companions. You could choose which one to use. You had to level them up (own level bar), micromanage them and even buy skills to them. Or you could program them using (what I think was) 3 hotbars worth of macros.

 

They also evolved while leveling them, and went from tiny cute creatures to savage beasts.

 

I'm pretty sure ARGO Online is far from being the only MMO together with SWTOR to have pets/companions whatever to interact with you and do some thing or another that benefit you - the player.

 

Yes, SWTOR gave us some innovation when it comes to cutscenes and companions but at the same time is lacking tons where it really matters - Content.

 

Yeah, my only point was to the person that said it wasn't innovation. I was just saying it is - by definition - innovation. They might not be big innovations, and they might not even been good innovation. That's a matter of opinion. But to say they aren't innovations at all is just untrue.

 

That was my only point (which I think you agree with anyway, judging from your last line). I just think if we're going to criticize the game, it should be fair criticisms and not denials of actual facts. Fact is, SWTOR did have some innovations. It's fine to say they're crappy innovations (even though I disagree). But don't deny that they're innovations. That's just untrue.

[KurleyKilla]

Cliche as..... Star Wars?

 

 

I've read a ton of hate on these forums all sorts of stuff, but seriously complaints about the story are imo nonsense (note the imo there). Reading is one of my favorite pasttimes and to be blunt genre literature is trash, the storyline of SWTOR is on par with if not better than a vast portion of fantasy/sci-fi literature and ANY MMO made to date. It is clear that actual thought was put into it, characters have personalities, motives and ideals. This is not the norm in genre writing and the ability to form your character's personality in an MMO is 100% new, please stop pretending it isn't.

 

Perhaps you don't love the feature, perhaps you'd have preferred more raiding etc. SWTOR's storyline can be a bit shallow at times, I definitely wish it had more depth but it is unquestionably better than what has been offered to date.

 

On note of the "good novel" bit, one of the reason that authors like GRR Martin have gained such fame is that the genre he writes in is frankly full of garbage.

 

 

We've all heard the illusion of depth argument, you don't get to change the story in a movie or a book as much as you do in SWTOR, does that mean they have no plot, story or depth?

 

I would love it if your choices had more moving impact on the world, but the "there is no story" hyperbole is really overdone.

 

 

how is that at all unquestionably better than what has been offered to date?

 

The best thing you could say about it is that it's better then trash in the same genre? Awsome. You must have read every novel in the genre to come to that conclusion?

 

"actual thought" is put into everything... How much thought, and how creative where the thinkers here, is the real question.

 

 

I'm not pretending anything.

 

If I play WoW, I am told to go to a new area, where there is evil afoot. I must kill all those baddies in that area. Then click on various shiny objects for various different reasons. I am told to do all these things with "TEXT"

 

In Swtor, Instead I get to watch a cutscene where my commander says. "oi theres this new planet you need to go to... There are a bunch of bad dudes there.. you need to kill them." ITS THE SAME ****!!!

 

Every MMO had reasons and backstories for what you were doing if you took the time to read...

 

Have you ever played another bioware game in your life? They rehash the same sidequests.

 

"Please my brother is in this ****** situation you must find him"

 

"oh no! I left this object in my house, you have to go get it for me"

 

"This town will die if you don't clean there water source!"

 

so now I can still do all the exact same ****... But at the end when I go to collect my reward I can say "**** you I'm keeping ____" and get some darkside points. WOW INNOVATION!!!

Edited February 29, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Cerion]

GW2 will be so, so innovative

 

1. porting to console
   
2. loading screens
   
3. huge lag on W^3
   
4. voice acting
   
5. character story quests
   
6. no raiding (which I rather like btw, haha)
   
7. huge empty world. But at least it's huge.
   

[Vecke]

they never billed the game as inovated if you followed the game you would know that.

 

the voice over is all they really did that was different everythen else is what wow did took from other mmos.

 

as for GW2 reinventing MMOs we will wait and see how it works AoC did that and it failed

 

A fair point. I get caught up in the "actual definition of innovation" arguments too much, but really, they never claimed they were reinventing the wheel with this game. Matter of fact, every promise they made before launch met my expectations.

 

To be fair, though, the OP just asked if they've done anything to push the genre forward. He didn't mention anything about promises.

[_Marou_]

I feel removal of auto-attack has significantly improved PvP over WoW. Auto-attack is passive DPS in every MMO I've played (except TOR) that gets added to all of your attacks. In TOR you actually have to activate every attack, so it's completely plausible and doable to kill people without taking any damage if you interrupt, LOS, and use CC wisely. In addition knockbacks, knockdowns, pulls, and short duration stuns make situational awareness and positioning way more important.

 

Is it a giant improvement like GW2/Tera combat are? No, but it's still an improvement.

 

As far as other stuff goes, this is the upper crust of theme park MMO's. No game has a better leveling up experience than TOR, and I've played every major MMO + tons of F2P ones.

Edited February 29, 2012 by _Marou_

[Icebaron]

I feel removal of auto-attack has significantly improved PvP over WoW. Auto-attack is passive DPS in every MMO I've played (except TOR) that gets added to all of your attacks. In TOR you actually have to activate every attack, so it's completely plausible and doable to kill people without taking any damage if you interrupt, LOS, and use CC wisely. In addition knockbacks, knockdowns, pulls, and short duration stuns make situational awareness and positioning way more important.

 

Is it a giant improvement like GW2/Tera combat are? No, but it's still an improvement.

 

As far as other stuff goes, this is the upper crust of theme park MMO's. No game has a better leveling up experience than TOR, and I've played every major MMO + tons of F2P ones.

 

You do have auto attack, it's called your companion.

[Vecke]

I feel removal of auto-attack has significantly improved PvP over WoW. Auto-attack is passive DPS in every MMO I've played (except TOR) that gets added to all of your attacks. In TOR you actually have to activate every attack, so it's completely plausible and doable to kill people without taking any damage if you interrupt, LOS, and use CC wisely. In addition knockbacks, knockdowns, pulls, and short duration stuns make situational awareness and positioning way more important.

 

Is it a giant improvement like GW2/Tera combat are? No, but it's still an improvement.

 

As far as other stuff goes, this is the upper crust of theme park MMO's. No game has a better leveling up experience than TOR, and I've played every major MMO + tons of F2P ones.

 

While I agree with you, to be fair, DDO and DCUO also removed auto attack.

[_Marou_]

You do have auto attack, it's called your companion.

 

You don't in PvP.

[Vecke]

You do have auto attack, it's called your companion.

 

He said significantly improved PVP. Can't use companions in WZs.

[SWImara]

I agree with this totally. It will be a smaller company that changes the basic paradigm of MMOs. I think that's because of WoW.

While I think that quite a bit was done in an innovative manner in SWTOR, I can agree with this sentiment. Smaller games, particularly those that deliver to MMO niches have the ability to be more risky with what they implement.

 

In SWTOR we got voice over because frankly it is somewhat absurd for games not to have voice over at this point. We got story because well... who doesn't like a good story (apparently everyone on the forums). We got fluid responsive combat because having characters mindlessly swing at each other and flip around etc gets tiresome after a while.

 

I'm not bashing WoW; I think it did some great things for the genre. But it also put a massive roadblock on innovation.

 

Before WoW, MMO developers weren't afraid to explore the market and experiment with other gameplay mechanics. SWG is a good example. It had no levels and you weren't locked into anything. If you became a master Pistoleer, then decided you wanted to become something else, you could. You could even play the game without ever firing a single shot or fighting a single NPC. There were entire classes that were nonviolent.

 

But when WoW became the monster hit it became, it basically made all developers look at it and say, "That is the model to success. We can vary from it a little, but that basic model is what we have to stick to." It even caused SWG to change from the unique system it had to a system that fit within that model.

 

Now, the only companies (IMO) that are going to radically change the stale mechanics of MMOs will be companies that are willing to accept that their game may just end up being a small niche game. With that acknowledgement will come freedom that the "we must make bazillions" developers won't have.

Well said, basically we get what we get these days because it is what we demand. People troll from game to game raging about the same issues over and over again. When games do try to innovate (see AoC as another poster mentioned above) the savage MMO hordes go *******, write blogs, tweet etc etc etc until the game is dramatically changed and goes down in flames.

 

Incremental changes are all that we can expect in a AAA MMO, and the changes we've gotten in SWTOR are pretty substantial imo.

[scootshoot]

Fill in the blank.

 

Should we expect a new game to push the genre forward?

 

Is it ok if a new game does not push the genre forward?

 

Full Voice acting...that's about it.

 

The graphics are pretty piss poor and they left basically all the features off that are must haves for todays MMO's. The UI itself is just prehistoric

[Iboga]

Sorry but games had story and VO WAY before SWTOR.

 

EQ2 had a ton of voice over. just not 'completly' voiced over. It also STILL has better graphics and was released what in 2004-3 even? EQ2 really was an MMO gem that a lot of people missed cause of the SOE hate.

 

EQ2 looks horrible compared to SWTOR... what are you talking about...

[_Marou_]

While I agree with you, to be fair, DDO and DCUO also removed auto attack.

 

I love DDO in short bursts, but PvP in a D&D ruleset is...lol, I heard nothing but how short DCUO was so I skipped it. I wish TOR would look at DDO dungeons for inspiration. Since they beat the crap out of TOR flashpoints.

Edited February 29, 2012 by _Marou_

[Andryah]

as for GW2 reinventing MMOs we will wait and see how it works AoC did that and it failed

 

I agree. Peoples built up expectations of GW2 will be it's largest liability. But since they don't pay a subscription fee, they may just choke it down before they deinstall and move on to something else.

[SWImara]

how is that at all unquestionably better than what has been offered to date?

 

The best thing you could say about it is that it's better then trash in the same genre? Awsome. You must have read every novel in the genre to come to that conclusion?

Wait... what?

 

The game isn't a novel, we are comparing to other games correct? And the storyline we have has both more depth and more choice (even if those choices don't always shape the world) than other games put out on the market.

 

As for your every novel in the genre comment, no obviously I haven't, but I have read a ton of them. I enjoy genre literature so I look for what is good/has positive reviews/is different and there is dreadfully little of it. In most (fantasy) literature for example you get the same classic hero's journey with some crap about magic thrown in, characters tend to fall into some one dimensional archetypes and there is little in the way of believability or emotion written into anyone. Both of these exist in the SWTOR story.

 

"actual thought" is put into everything... How much thought, and how creative where the thinkers here, is the real question.

This is of course a good point and one I agree on, I hope that future chapters of our character storylines (and future side-quests) have more depth and fluidity, but that doesn't change the quality of what currently exists.

 

 

I'm not pretending anything.

 

If I play WoW, I am told to go to a new area, where there is evil afoot. I must kill all those baddies in that area. Then click on various shiny objects for various different reasons. I am told to do all these things with "TEXT"

 

In Swtor, Instead I get to watch a cutscene where my commander says. "oi theres this new planet you need to go to... There are a bunch of bad dudes there.. you need to kill them." ITS THE SAME ****!!!

 

Every MMO had reasons and backstories for what you were doing if you took the time to read...

 

Have you ever played another bioware game in your life? They rehash the same sidequests.

 

"Please my brother is in this ****** situation you must find him"

 

"oh no! I left this object in my house, you have to go get it for me"

 

"This town will die if you don't clean there water source!"

Every action movie is on some level or another rehashed from a few core concepts. Every fantasy novel works around a few central ideas as does every sci-fi novel, mystery novel, horror novel etc etc etc. Unless you are talking about contemporary weird fiction or indie movies stories do tend to be a bit predictable, I don't follow how you can claim that that makes them shallow or poor.

 

so now I can still do all the exact same ****... But at the end when I go to collect my reward I can say "**** you I'm keeping ____" and get some darkside points. WOW INNOVATION!!!

Um.... yes. This is innovative. Look at other games, look at this game. They are different. Your character has choices in this game, they may not effect end game (the part that people tend to complain about) but they are meaningful at least in a character's individual story. Some of the decisions you have to make in the Trooper SL for instance are really not easy to make, I never thought I would want to have a "load" button in an MMO but at times I regret the decisions I've made with my PC. This is totally new to the genre. I understand you don't care for the change, but that doesn't mean that the change isn't there, not every game is made for the same potential player.

Edited February 29, 2012 by SWImara

[Iboga]

I agree. Peoples built up expectations of GW2 will be it's largest liability. But since they don't pay a subscription fee, they may just choke it down before they deinstall and move on to something else.

 

I agree... while I will probably pick it up, I don't really expect to fall in love with it. It seems way too homogenized. It's essentially more of a "Single Player the MMO" than SWTOR is since in groups it sounds to be every man for himself with occasional assisting of companions. Was reading about the lack of healers the other day, it's really weird. You actually have to work your healing abilities into your rotation or whatever to keep yourself alive and while I already tend to do this to some degree, the lack of full fledged healers/tanks is a real turn off for me. Control and support... lolz...

 

I signed up for the Beta, hopefully I'll get in since I'd rather not waste 60 bucks on the game if it's going to play out the way it sounds...

[Icebaron]

He said significantly improved PVP. Can't use companions in WZs.

 

sorry, don't consider warzones pvp. It's more like a sport. But I guess pvp just means player vs player, so I guess it is.

 

Anyways, any steps forward in pvp SWTOR has made they still failed to deliver on competive pvp.

 

So WoW has better social casual pvp (world pvp) and better hard core competitive pvp (areans and rated battlegrounds). They also have better large scale world objectives in pvp. PVP daily quests in zones while leveling. Capital city raids. So how has SWTOR pushed pvp forward exactly? If anything it is still a step back for most people.

[Arkerus]

1. They made me care about my actually character and the leveling process. The game truly does start at level 1 instead of level 50.

 

2. Full voice over is awesome.

 

3. Accessibility. Everything is accessible in this game to the noobs or the hardcore vet. Even raids, which is awesome.

[DJunior]

I think people want innovation in the MMO genre because they recognize that the current generation is both stagnant and extremely lacking.

 

I do think that SWTOR has pushed the genre forward, but in such minimal ways overall that it's barely worth mentioning. Companions are nice, but basically it's just a more robust implementation of pets from other games. Stories are great but again it's just an improved implementation of basically the same thing that has come before. The basic mechanics of the game and the specific implementations very much put it into the WoW-clone category.

 

Innovation is more likely to come from smaller games that need to take more chances in order to carve out a niche. Big games with big budgets, heavy content, and lots of polish can play it safer and have success. Once someone else innovates something that works, the big boys will follow in their footsteps, do it better, and rake in the money.

 

However, I am interested to see if Blizzard can shake things up and be innovative with Titan. I have my doubts though. it sort of sounds like it may be an alternate path of MMOs, and not a new path.

 

Completely agree. I love what you said about innovation. Always the little guys who innovate. In general, the big companies and big budgets buy or steal they're ideas. There are very few innovative elements to this game, and they small steps forward at best. Sad to say, but in truth, I feel that by failing to push the genre forward, it is actually left in the past. Bioware is really dropping the ball here if people are all over these forums talking about leaving this game and our beloved Star Wars franchise to get an actual new experience when GW2, The Secret World, or whatever upcoming MMO arrives.

 

C'mon Bioware. The Star Wars name sells itself, Bioware's reputation speaks for itself. So why is this game falling so far short of expectations? No real innovation. I was honestly far more impressed with SWG. It felt much more like a Star Wars universe to me. That says nothing good, and a lot bad concerning where this game is going.

Edited February 29, 2012 by DJunior

[KurleyKilla]

Wait... what?

 

The game isn't a novel, we are comparing to other games correct? And the storyline we have has both more depth and more choice (even if those choices don't always shape the world) than other games put out on the market.

 

 

This is of course a good point and one I agree on, I hope that future chapters of our character storylines (and future side-quests) have more depth and fluidity, but that doesn't change the quality of what currently exists.

 

 

 

Every action movie is on some level or another rehashed from a few core concepts. Every fantasy novel works around a few central ideas as does every sci-fi novel, mystery novel, horror novel etc etc etc. Unless you are talking about contemporary weird fiction or indie movies stories do tend to be a bit predictable, I don't follow how you can claim that that makes them shallow or poor.

 

 

Um.... yes. This is innovative. Look at other games, look at this game. They are different. I understand you don't care for the change, but that doesn't mean that the change isn't there, not every game is made for the same potential player.

 

 

 

I am looking at other games... It is not different.

 

Bioware has the same shtick over and over. If we compare it to other MMO's in this one single respect, it edges them out SLIGHTLY purely because the characters talk out loud.

 

Compare it to other MMO's throughout time in almost every other aspect and it falls short.

 

Compare this MMO's story to that of stories in other genres (which according to some is unfair) and it is absolute tripe.

 

 

A lot of action movies copy core concepts from one another and yes that does make them extremely shallow and boring.

 

The ones that are set apart have something different about them, usually it multi-faceted characters that are actually interesting.