Discussion about this so-called "huge loss of subs"

[SWImara]

Actually, this is typical with MMOs whose only motivation in endgame is getting new shiny Epics. Once People have it, there is no reason to log anymore.

 

Add even a bit more creativity (like housing, RP tools, quest editors, GM Evenrt Support), and people stay inbetween.

I appreciate the above ^^

 

Even with that being said though, people's perceptions are all too often warped by the utter trash that floats to the surface of the forums. I often tell friends when trying out any new game to at very least avoid the forums for the first several months. MMO forums have always been primarily for ************ (at least in my memory) but since the days of WoW it certainly seems to have gotten much worse.

 

Personally I am still enjoying the heck out of the game, as I suspect are plenty of others. Really... if you're not... quit. That really honestly is a totally reasonable way to react if you don't think you're getting your money's worth. The game would have to be pretty much utter garbage for me not to be comfortable spending 15$ a month on it, but money means different things to different people.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

I was wondering, how does everybody know that "servers are empty"?

 

 

It's all anecdotal, except for the part where the server select screen doesn't have a ton of very heavy servers any more. I know my two servers have fewer people at the fleet and every planet I go to than they did a month ago. Maybe they haven't cancelled (yet) and just aren't logging in because there's nothing to do once they've already maxed their toon and don't like rolling alts, but I suspect it won't be long before they do cancel.

 

Before launch, I predicted 500k subs at the six month mark. Now, I'll be pleasantly surprised if they have that many. Other themepark games like LotRO have more tools for people to play around with when they don't feel like running a dungeon for the 50th time. What does TOR have?

 

I haven't seen any sort of drop in subs. Which is odd because I figured the free month would expire and there'd be a drop. Not even 10% as far as I can tell.

 

But even if everyone quit I'd still be playing. Because I think for myself. If I'm having fun then I'm playing. If I'm not, then I don't.

 

I don't care about what any of YOU say or do. It will have no effect on ME.

 

BioWare itself confirmed and actually bragged about the 85% retention rate after the first month, which isn't bad these days, but the fact is they lost about 300k subs after the first month. Wanna bet that is the last time they give numbers?

 

I'm still enjoying the game even though I think it has serious issues, but I can't see myself sticking around more than 6 months without major changes and content additions (even if it's fluff).

Edited February 29, 2012 by ChicksDigHarleys

[wifeaggro]

This is coming from a long time player of MMO's, both "popular" and "unpopular" (SWG, LOTRO, DAoC, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer online): I have seen multiple games succeed, and multiple games not so much.

 

Take Age of Conan for example. I saw the game go from about 30 US servers, down to 4 over the time of 4 months. However, these 4 servers were populated, and the game was moderately successful, in its own respect.

 

What is the big stress of all these subs dropping? It's not like we're going to wake up to the servers not being here anymore. All they would have to do at this point is condense half of the servers down, and they would all be populated abundantly.

 

This game has the potential to be a very successful game, and I don't know WHAT people are thinking, wanting plenty of endgame raiding content, pvp options, etc only a few months after release. You demand the game be rushed into release, and expect it to have as many raids as an MMO which has been out for a year?

 

Open discussion for why you will not be resubbing/why you will/when you will lose hope. If unsubbing, describe why, if and when you plan to check back for new content, and things you would like to see changed.

 

I personally will give this game plenty of time to grow, as it had one of the most impressive launches I have seen in a while from an MMO (keep in mind, WoW's servers were nearly impossible to play on for almost two weeks after release).

 

Because its not a true MMO. Ive played all the games you described . Even AOC for all its flaws launched with the a true MMO expierence. the guild system was light years above even some of the most matured MMO's. even its disjointed and instanced feel did not detractfrom it feeling like a massive adventure. It at least had soul and felt like a true MMO.

 

TOR is not a bad game by any means and my main gripes are not about more end game content . Its about not having MMO content it is a single player game through lvl 50 . then it lobbies you off. So many thing worng with the game and the integrity of this Dev team with issues like high res pacs , FPS issues and the general design concept has convinced me TOR is not for me. Ill continue to post on the forums until my 90 day sub runs out.

[BCBull]

1. Each faction has their own base(s) on each planet. They are seperated for logical reasons. There is no reason you can't get other people and attack at base. On Voss I see this happen a lot.

 

2. Depends on the person. I can handle up to about 25 before performance loss.

 

3. Swimming? WHO CARES. Its hardly important. Why do we need swimming? There is literally no point. The fleets are the same. Big deal. Its a hub for game purposes. You are complaining about them using the same model? Very nitpicky. Very pointless complaint. Another complaint? All you're talking about is stuff you wanted to see, its not about true game deficiencies. Its all YOUR idea of the game.

 

4. There is some bad customer service. Ok. I get this one.

 

5. Another complaint that is pointless. Streamlining the process and encouraging people to PvP is very important. PvP is fun regardless of the "rewards". PvP is supposed to be something that people compete in and everyone needs to be on approximately the same footing. The elitist model is GONE. Get. Over. It.

 

 

If someone wants to PROVE there is a sub loss, please by all means send me the proof.

 

1. I shouldn't have to searc hthe galaxy to find a fight during a "War" but I have many times. I play on a high pop server at that

 

2. 25?!!? 12v12??? 7 year old games run 100v100 better..

 

3. I highlight swimming (along with other things) To back up my point of cutting corners instead of fixing. There was deep water in beta, you just couldn't swim (you know take a short cut, or just to take a dive) So then launch comes.. no water higher than your knee. Issues with Ilum? No problem you know longer need to go there to complete the Ilum quest... The mind set and capability of development alarms me.

 

4. we agree

 

5. Pointless? This is a mmorpg you play to progress and achieve atleast I do, don't you? That's the bedrock of the genre for ffs. When you give it away why play? Or why call it a rpg?

Edited February 29, 2012 by BCBull

[Mormack]

Originally Posted by Mormack

What people are seeing happens in every MMO.

 

1) Content Drops

2) People consume Content

3) People stop Logging till new content comes out

4) Rinse and Repeat

t.

yup this is the main problem here.. the issue is we should not be burned through all of the content a few months into the release.. thats the industrys fault, or ours for demanding we level that fast

 

Its a fanbase issue. The MMO fanbase is so fragmented now and people who are happy don't really say anything ever and why should they? They would rather enjoy the game than come defend their point on the forums because as soon as they defend their point they get called a fanboy/girl, Biodrone, Blizztard, etc. Most people tend to avoid conflict and just figure if they enjoy the game, they'll just keep playing.

 

This means that MMO developers pretty much just have the people who are the loudest to listen to and recently that's been the people who don't want to level. Bioware tried to compromise and make the leveling experience not too time consuming (took me a month of consistent but not hardcore playing) but make it matter. I was happy with the leveling experience...maybe it should have been a little longer but at least I felt like my character was a ****** and was important.

 

in Short...The MMO community is like the United States Congress. Everyone thinks they're right and in the end nothing gets done because everyone wants it THEIR way.

[peterpangelo]

I'm don't think I'll be here after 3-6 months because of the way BioWare develops and communicates. I'll give couple examples that come to mind which are fundamental design flaws.

 

1. The complete separation of faction in the game world.

2. The unability to play with more than 16 people without significant performance loss.

3. Cutting of corners in stead of making better. (no swimming, 1.1.5. taking any reason away to go to Ilum, Imp fleet being exactly the same as Pub fleet, sith corruption turning my black toon white. etc)

4. The absolute worst customer service I have been forced to deal with ever (yes I said ever).

5. Devaluing of accomplishment ( 2 months later valor gains have been doubled and effort needed to do so removed.)

 

I'll stay around as long as I can. I agree with this post, but not to the extent to unsub. I was really disappointed when I realized that the fleet would be our capital city... when I entered my first beta trial, I expected to see some magnificent, breath-taking, 2011+ designed awesome capital city that WOULD BE RAIDABLE BY THE OTHER FACTION!!! When I got the fleet in beta, I was like, what's this?!?! ...and I told myself, don't worry, when you get to a higher lvl that magical cool capital city will appear...

 

Long story short, I'm really enjoying the game despite some of this "shortcomings". *IF* the game evolves, and grows beyond its limits, then I will stay. If in several months it's still pretty faction separate, RP unfriendly, ugly utilitarian capital city, etc., then I may have to pull the plug, but I'm hoping that won't happen!!

 

So yeah, as long as it evolves in a "horizontal" way, so to say, instead of just vertically/linearly, (as in only releasing new dungeons/raids every several months), then I'll stay on board. I want to see new fun content (along with that "linear" promised stuff, of course) like holiday events, RP friendly things like interacting physically with the environment, and more fun places to hang out other than that ugly fleet, etc.

[Shizzaster]

Just cancelled my sub....just cant fool myself that this is a good game anymore. 2 months in and i'm bored already.

 

that is perfectly worded for what I wanted to type

[Aepervius]

What is the big stress of all these subs dropping? It's not like we're going to wake up to the servers not being here anymore. All they would have to do at this point is condense half of the servers down, and they would all be populated abundantly.

 

Some people are emotionally invested and find the game a disappointment, but rather than think "that game is not for me, I am not in its demographic but maybe it will be a success in the demographic" they would instead think "that game is bad and everybody will see it my way and it will fail".

 

This game has the potential to be a very successful game, and I don't know WHAT people are thinking, wanting plenty of endgame raiding content, pvp options, etc only a few months after release. You demand the game be rushed into release, and expect it to have as many raids as an MMO which has been out for a year?

 

Open discussion for why you will not be resubbing/why you will/when you will lose hope. If unsubbing, describe why, if and when you plan to check back for new content, and things you would like to see changed.

 

I personally will give this game plenty of time to grow, as it had one of the most impressive launches I have seen in a while from an MMO (keep in mind, WoW's servers were nearly impossible to play on for almost two weeks after release).

 

 

I unsubbed because i think there are too many part going agaisnt my entertainment, a lot of small one : crafting, GTN, not enough different WZ, etc...

 

I plan to wait 6 month to 12 month, and check again to see if all those small thing changed.

 

I think the game has the potential to be very great , but was prolly released too early, but will potentially overcome that in the next months.

 

 

i could be wrong though.

[BCBull]

You have to realize that some things (the ilum thing in particular) are just placeholder things until they can work something more long term out. They aren't going to give up on Ilum that easy but hell, it took humans 7 years to fix a bridge in Redridge in WoW. There were quests that were broken for YEARS and mechanics that are STILL broken (Vanish I'm looking at you.). Bioware is actually doing a pretty good job at pumping out fixes.

 

I don't think I should have to pay another 45-60 dollars for a place holder. These things should have been right at launch. It isn't a bug in Ilum to say (performance aside) It is a design flaw. These things take time to correct if not an xpac.

[Mormack]

I'll stay around as long as I can. I agree with this post, but not to the extent to unsub. I was really disappointed when I realized that the fleet would be our capital city... when I entered my first beta trial, I expected to see some magnificent, breath-taking, 2011+ designed awesome capital city that WOULD BE RAIDABLE BY THE OTHER FACTION!!! When I got the fleet in beta, I was like, what's this?!?! ...and I told myself, don't worry, when you get to a higher lvl that magical cool capital city will appear...

 

Long story short, I'm really enjoying the game despite some of this "shortcomings". *IF* the game evolves, and grows beyond its limits, then I will stay. If in several months it's still pretty faction separate, RP unfriendly, ugly utilitarian capital city, etc., then I may have to pull the plug, but I'm hoping that won't happen!!

 

So yeah, as long as it evolves in a "horizontal" way, so to say, instead of just vertically/linearly, (as in only releasing new dungeons/raids every several months), then I'll stay on board. I want to see new fun content (along with that "linear" promised stuff, of course) like holiday events, RP friendly things like interacting physically with the environment, and more fun places to hang out other than that ugly fleet, etc.

 

 

Honestly, in this game, if Coruscant and Dromund Kaas were raidable, that would really be immersion breaking for me. I can't imagine a Small Strike team (Which is what every Operation is compared to the might of the empire or Republic) could not only penetrate the Planet's Orbital Defenses but could also invade the capital and sack the place. It took the full might of the Imperial Army to do that to Coruscant. I don't think it would be a probable thing.

 

The Fleets are hubs and they are well designed. I'd rather have two fleets that are easy to navigate than everyone getting Thunderbluff or Exodar and going "OMG this place sucks...Back to the Fleet"

 

 

 

I don't think I should have to pay another 45-60 dollars for a place holder. These things should have been right at launch. It isn't a bug in Ilum to say (performance aside) It is a design flaw. These things take time to correct if not an xpac.

 

 

Then you will never be happy in an MMO. They do this all the time. Things break and they have to put in Placeholders. Things don't work out the way they plan so they have to put the emphasis somewhere else for a while. Hell, Org Arena was taken out of rated play for half an expac because of its bugs and such in WoW. World PvP zones are hard to design. Wintergrasp wasn't right...Hell I don't think Tol Barad is right. They got a lot of things right at launch. There is actually a small amount of things that I don't think they got right but even then, they are fixing things and trying to make the game more enjoyable for as many people as they can. Its the only thing they can do.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mormack

[Mrcookjr]

I played UO, EQ, DDO, FF, Maple Story and WoW from Beta to 2011.

 

This is the BEST MMO I've ever played. I can't see how anyone can get bored unless they have that Michael Bay/Call of Duty mentality. I enjoy playing new toons and the PvP just doesn't get boring to me.

 

If more of WoW's players would come over they would launch WoW and realize how dated and ugly it is.

 

I'll be around until the servers are turned off.

[Nemeses]

What people are seeing happens in every MMO.

 

1) Content Drops

2) People consume Content

3) People stop Logging till new content comes out

4) Rinse and Repeat

 

Seriously, on my server at least I'm not seeing any sub loss at least on Imp side. I see 200+ on the fleet every night and a very full Ilum. I think the sub loss issue is exaggerated...and no I'm not a biodrone...see Signature. I have issues just like everyone else is but I'm not going to pretend like my issues are the most important and should be fixed pronto.

 

EDIT: Besides, they are fixing the biggest issue I have right now and that's the stupid Pylons in Eternity Vault.

 

lmao ...

[DariuszPol]

Orange in quote. Questions ?

 

This is coming from a long time player of MMO's, both "popular" and "unpopular" (SWG, LOTRO, DAoC, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer online): I have seen multiple games succeed, and multiple games not so much.

 

From nolife. Noted.

 

Take Age of Conan for example. I saw the game go from about 30 US servers, down to 4 over the time of 4 months. However, these 4 servers were populated, and the game was moderately successful, in its own respect.

 

And it went F2P because subscription model failed because lack of subs...

 

What is the big stress of all these subs dropping? It's not like we're going to wake up to the servers not being here anymore. All they would have to do at this point is condense half of the servers down, and they would all be populated abundantly.

 

So subs are dropping...

 

This game has the potential to be a very successful game, and I don't know WHAT people are thinking, wanting plenty of endgame raiding content, pvp options, etc only a few months after release. You demand the game be rushed into release, and expect it to have as many raids as an MMO which has been out for a year?

 

So what. Give it year or two and PAY for that because devs decide to voice every stupid "kill 10 mobs quest" instead of doing what they should ? If you don't remember, about one year ago one guy left Bioware. He was working on TOR and he said that company focus so much on story that everything else sux balls a loot. Gues what... he was right.

 

Open discussion for why you will not be resubbing/why you will/when you will lose hope. If unsubbing, describe why, if and when you plan to check back for new content, and things you would like to see changed.

 

Game need major changes in PVP. And some end game content. They decide to create a game that make you hit max in 2-6 weeks so they should see what will happen.

 

I personally will give this game plenty of time to grow, as it had one of the most impressive launches I have seen in a while from an MMO (keep in mind, WoW's servers were nearly impossible to play on for almost two weeks after release).

 

This is why loot of people unsub and there is around 30 people on starting area, 20-30 on fleet and 2-3 on high lvl planet 3 months after release on my server. People decide to give them time. Few months or years.

[BCBull]

Honestly, in this game, if Coruscant and Dromund Kaas were raidable, that would really be immersion breaking for me. I can't imagine a Small Strike team (Which is what every Operation is compared to the might of the empire or Republic) could not only penetrate the Planet's Orbital Defenses but could also invade the capital and sack the place. It took the full might of the Imperial Army to do that to Coruscant. I don't think it would be a probable thing.

 

The Fleets are hubs and they are well designed. I'd rather have two fleets that are easy to navigate than everyone getting Thunderbluff or Exodar and going "OMG this place sucks...Back to the Fleet"

 

Many of us love PvP. Look at the forum thread numbers. To much care was taken to insure people like you are not inconvenienced (you are playing a game that two faction are at WAR ). I'm not saying you are a bad guy, but there are a lot of people bored to tears because of that protection given to people like you.

Edited February 29, 2012 by BCBull

[Lethality]

 

What is the big stress of all these subs dropping? It's not like we're going to wake up to the servers not being here anymore. All they would have to do at this point is condense half of the servers down, and they would all be populated abundantly.

 

If there is indeed large subscription loss, it means they can't execute their original "dream" content plans, and have to shift to plan B, or C... or worse.

 

No, the game isn't shutting down, but will it be everything it could have without a growing subscriber base? That's the worry.

 

I personally will give this game plenty of time to grow, as it had one of the most impressive launches I have seen in a while from an MMO (keep in mind, WoW's servers were nearly impossible to play on for almost two weeks after release).

 

And that's a key point. Many players are simply not willing to sit around and wait (and pay) for another game to grow up, only to have features that other games have had for years. Some will... maybe Star Wars fans, maybe BioWare fans... but most MMO vets are probably not.

[ArtMonster]

The 'only' time I ever had the feeling of full servers in this game was at launch.

 

after that first week it has been a ghosttown feeling.... very disconcerting.

 

but I'm not gonna rage....

 

I'll just fade out when I've had enough and go elsewhere.

 

But for now, since I made the descision to sub for 6 months....lol..... I'll stick it out and 'watch'....lucky for you bioware.... otherwise I would be considering dropping this month.

 

it's your move swtor.

 

.

[Mormack]

Many of us love PvP. Look at the forum thread numbers. To much care was taken to insure people like you are not inconvenienced (you are playing a game that two faction are at WAR in). I'm not saying you are a bad guy, but there are a lot of people bored to tears because of that protection given.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love PvP. I love World PvP and I came from WoW like many others...Hell, I play on Kil'Jaeden there...we have a high pop on both sides and City raids are not uncommon....Its just not conducive to the RPG experience to see a small Ops group raiding Dromund Kaas and even less sense with Coruscant. There has to be some attention taken to Lore and story...Otherwise you get Jesus Thrall and the Dragon Soul able to hurt what it wasn't supposed to be able to hurt....

[Quraswren]

Everything on the forums is exaggerated.

 

The fact that these supposedly dissatisfied customers are still here, still posting is the most telling of all. A bit of reading between the lines.

 

So much true in that post it hurts.

[Holden_Dissent]

If there is indeed large subscription loss, it means they can't execute their original "dream" content plans, and have to shift to plan B, or C... or worse.

 

No, the game isn't shutting down, but will it be everything it could have without a growing subscriber base? That's the worry.

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure EQ still drops expansions every year. Which totally unravels your entire point.

[Mrcookjr]

^^^ This.

[Spell_Bound]

Orange in quote. Questions ?

 

My friend, this thread is not meant for you. It is meant for mature discussion over why this is happening.

 

And no, I never said I believed the subs were dropping. I asked what the big stress was over such an event. Not that you were able to pick up on that, I see. Sorry for not being clear.

 

You, much like the other people flaming this game, are very vague in what you dislike.

 

I'm starting to realize all the hater-aide for this game is coming from a brain-dead hivemind, rather than educated issues with the game.

[Shizzaster]

The 'only' time I ever had the feeling of full servers in this game was at launch.

 

 

i remeber that.... only cause the game crashed over and over for no reason and then I had to sit in a que everytime.

 

also why is that daily in ilum still bugged almost 3 months later?

 

why havent the fixes in the next patch been deployed yet instead of waiting they should have been hotfixes. example: eternity vault fixes and ilum performance issues ( I know disabling the cannons wont do anything for performance)

[Xtroll]

I canceled my sub as well, and most likely i wont come bk.

 

For all you fan boys out there that claims I cant be bored before I have done every single thing in the game before I get bored or the game don't appeal to me anymore... Get a grip

 

Why im Quitting is not because the endgame raid's/ dungeons /PvP cant and wont be improved and better, and honestly I do like the hard modes in this game. (Except for the fact that they are direct copies of normal mode!, Todays mmo's usually know that this is a big mistake already) And I honestly cant see myself do them day in and day out on a endless grind before a frustrating raid..

 

Been there done that for 5 years....

 

And I fail to see how BW will inplent something fresh to do in between that would appeal to me, Take for example the dailies in this game, honestly done them once and even the first time I did them they where absolutely horrible booooooooooring. Yeah i know it's a MMO and all that, but if any of you are able to grab a group and go 24/7 you got way better social skills than I got, Not to mention I do like to solo a couple of hours between groups and other times I only got one to one and a half hour, and logging on SW:tor feels pointless.

 

Another thing that really annoys me is the way they handle patches and fixes.... Honestly Are you eaven able to right click anyone in guild yet for a invite????, The last Major patch looks smaller than last weeks Hotfix over at Trion (Even with the HUGE Fonts on the patch notes)...

 

Anyway, For you folks that love the game, no offence but im sorry but I cant bring myself to that level, Peace out.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Xtroll

[Lethality]

Pretty sure EQ still drops expansions every year. Which totally unravels your entire point.

 

Hehe, um no.

 

The "expansions" for EQ pale in comparison to what the market leader, World of Warcraft is able to give players on a regular basis. Heck even the content patches for WoW are much more than an EQ expansion, and players get those more often... at least 2 a year! And Free!

 

TOR would be expected to deliver patches and expansions on the scale of WoW, not EQ.

 

Besides, James Ohlen was asked about subscriber levels and he said they have multiple content plans depending on the level. So it's clear they've got a good/better/best plan in mind, if they can meet the numbers.

 

No one knows what those numbers are, by the way, so they may be meeting them. But if the subscription numbers are not inherently growing, it might be hard to reach "plan A".

[Mormack]

My friend, this thread is not meant for you. It is meant for mature discussion over why this is happening.

 

And no, I never said I believed the subs were dropping. I asked what the big stress was over such an event. Not that you were able to pick up on that, I see. Sorry for not being clear.

 

You, much like the other people flaming this game, are very vague in what you dislike.

 

I'm starting to realize all the hater-aide for this game is coming from a brain-dead hivemind, rather than educated issues with the game.

 

There are issues with the game, don't forget that, but people act like this is the most Bug Ridden, unplayable mess they have ever played.

 

Some people also expected a sandbox game when it was obvious from the beginning that this was a Bioware game and bioware doesn't even do sandbox single player games.

 

The game is great in its own right and the only reason I still have my WoW sub is because 1) I have the annual pass (I wasn't planning on playing SWTOR till 4 days till it released) and 2) I raid with my friends who still play WoW. If it weren't for those two factors, I would be completely on SWTOR because the game gives me a similar Endgame but a far superior leveling experience...

 

I personally think that when I say "It feels like a single player experience" its a compliment...It means they have me immersed. I see people all the time and level with people, quest with people, and do heroics with people but at the end of the day the immersion is of the quality I haven't had in an MMO before this one. I get lost in the world and seeing what my character is going to do next. Instead of putting me into the Character, I put the Character in me and its a great feeling to me.