I'm very disappointed with Republic

[Meharial]

The SW is quite clear that some on the council believed Baras was what he said he was and others were being blackmailed. The fact that Baras was sabotaging the war effort on Corellia was a strike against him for pretty much everyone. And the Sith Empire isn't corrupt, per se, rather it's a meritocracy. If you have what it takes, you advance. Given, that "it" is differing from the Republic's ideals but the Empire does a reasonable job.

 

Sith killing Sith is frowned upon in most circumstances (the quest to help Renegin in Kaas City, LS, you trick Sith into attacking acolytes and they are executed). As a rule, force users > non-force users except for when that non-force user is exceptional (i.e Generals, Moffs, Grand-Moffs). There is infighting, yes, but it seems that if the victor is better for the position he gets it, there by losing nothing but man-power. If he isn't, the other elements of the Empire come into play and remove them.

 

The major flaw that prevents the Empire from working cohesively is the fact that Sith, the defacto leaders, are more often crazy and far too illogically ANGRY to be good leaders. And that, you know, the Emperor doesn't give a damn.

[Darth_Solrac]

There is, of course, massive self serving corruption in the Imperial hierarchy (mostly the Dark Council) but Republic/Jedi/Light Side fans who try to paint their side as saints are fooling themselves.

 

In a representative republican or democratic government like theirs, corruption, lies, bribery, fraud, etc. all a forgone conclusion. To be expected really.

 

I expect fully to see this when I get around to playing that side.

[MGriffith]

Uh.... A republic is NOT a democracy. It shares many similar traits, but the two are not one and the same.

 

Republic:

"A republic is a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, have supreme control over the government and where offices of state are elected or chosen by elected people"

 

 

Democracy:

"Democracy is the ideal that all the citizens of a nation determine together the laws or actions of their state, requiring that all citizens have an equal opportunity to express their consent and their will."

 

Your points are well taken, but technically a republic is a form of government with a head of state that is (periodically) elected, as opposed to a monarchy where the head of state is appointed for life based on parentage.

 

Both can be democracies or dictatorships or anything between. Both can be constitutional or not.

E.g. Denmark or the Netherlands are constitutional democratic monarchies. The UK is a democratic monarchy but does not have a constitution. Germany or France are constitutional democratic republics, as is the USA. China is for all intents and purposes a dictatorial republic, same as e.g. Myanmar and a fair number of african countries. Having elections does not automatically equate democracy (there must be a free and meaningful choice). Iran interestingly enough is a democratic republic with a caveat (in that candidates are vetted by the religious leaders and any too 'extreme' will be rejected from the election).

 

A democracy is not automatically better than a more restricted form of government. Too few or too many political parties tend to make matters worse rather than better (a binary choice in an all or nothing system tends to create partisanship. Having dozens of parties dilutes the choice and makes the whole system unstable, as Italy can attest).

 

In any political system fraud and corruption is possible and a real problem. It has nothing to do with the system though but all with lack of accountability. In the Empire, which is a dictatorial (or absolute) monarchy, with its 'might makes right' attitude corruption is pretty much a given. Those with the power to do something can (and likely will) do it to profit from it unless they are stopped by somebody even more powerful. Those at the bottom of the pile have to take all forms of abuse without recourse. In practice those higher in the hierarchy will not care greatly about the abuses of their underlings, as long as it does not impact their own plans and position, which in a system that is so rife with corruption is unlikely to happen as long as it is not leading to factories shutting down, mass riots or entire planets starving to death.

The Republic on the other hand is actually a federation of independent planets, each of which presumably is required to have somewhat democratic governing principles. There is no actual requirement for them to be a republic though (as various monarchies can attest, and several planets with barely a functioning form of government and certainly not a unified one). Each planet has a seat, and senator, but that is thousands of senators and does not do justice to the fact that some planets have trillions of inhabitants and millions times the economic production of other planets that number their inhabitants in the millions. So there probably is a weighted voting mechanism in place (which leads to its own form of politics within politics). Because of the vast distance between planets and the republic senate the oversight and accountability of individual senators is very limited. This makes it easy for corruption to creep in.

 

Two story lines on Coruscant deal explicitly with corruption, one on behalf of another senator, the other your character exposing evidence of corruption. Several other senators are portrayed as working for the good of the republic, or at least Coruscant.

Ord Mantell is a special case in that it is described as being run by rich and powerful families with very thin lines between them and criminal cartels. It is pretty much a failed state. The separatists have legitimate grievances, but have turned to terror tactics (e.g. attacking civilian populations), extortion (of refugees and villages) and war crimes (using child soldiers) so they are no better than the crime bosses they seek to oust.

 

I think it is a good thing that Bioware chose to portray the Republic as flawed as well, and the Empire having some elements working towards a greater good. Without that the opposition of Republic versus Empire would be too stereotypically good versus evil in the most black and white form, leaving no room for intersting stories.

[Spartanik]

Empire - Feudal system of the past. Well, you can't exactly say that countries in past were weak. In contrary, read up on French Revolution and you'll get what was needed to do in order to establish new ideals.

doesnt matter if its weak or not it is wrong... that is the whole point.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

The SW is quite clear that some on the council believed Baras was what he said he was and others were being blackmailed.

 

And others knew he was lying through his teeth and went along anyways because the lies benefited them.

 

And the Sith Empire isn't corrupt, per se, rather it's a meritocracy. If you have what it takes, you advance. Given, that "it" is differing from the Republic's ideals but the Empire does a reasonable job.

 

Not really. Darth malgus wants to make it into a meritocracy, but it isn't one now. If you had a non-force sensitive who was more skilled than a sith, the sith would still out rank him simply because he was sith. Quinn's companion arc is about multiple instances where the incompetent retained power while sending the competent out to their ends.

 

Sith killing Sith is frowned upon in most circumstances (the quest to help Renegin in Kaas City, LS, you trick Sith into attacking acolytes and they are executed).

 

Sith killing Sith is only frowned upon when it is done out in the open with no subterfuge and plenty of witnesses(unless you are the Emperor's Wrath).

[Grondoth]

The corruption of senators is a plot point for a reason, it allows the character to engage in the political process with an obvious antagonist. Most of those end in an arrested or dead corrupt official, too.

 

And man, are you people really arguing that an obviously facist slave state is a good place? Are you really that terrible? Cmon.

[LordOfMassacre]

The Sith are vastly superior to the broken, weak and hypocrisy that is the republic.

 

The Sith Empire is capable of bringing true order and breed the strongest of beings and place them at the highest status and office.

 

The republic cant even decide if they should have a cheese burger or a hot dog without bickering amongs each other.

 

 

The Sith Lords desire power and dominion, creating a single powerful empire that holds peace and order.

 

The jedi would rather discuss things at a circle.

 

The superiority of the Sith is evident with Darth Revan, If he did not turn to the Darkside and become a Sith Lord the republic would be the slaves of the Mandolorians and later liberated by the Sith Empire

[drfumblez]

The Sith are vastly superior to the broken, weak and hypocrisy that is the republic.

 

The Sith Empire is capable of bringing true order and breed the strongest of beings and place them at the highest status and office.

 

The republic cant even decide if they should have a cheese burger or a hot dog without bickering amongs each other.

 

 

The Sith Lords desire power and dominion, creating a single powerful empire that holds peace and order.

 

The jedi would rather discuss things at a circle.

 

The superiority of the Sith is evident with Darth Revan, If he did not turn to the Darkside and become a Sith Lord the republic would be the slaves of the Mandolorians and later liberated by the Sith Empire

 

Not sure if Roleplaying, or serious... if the former, kudos to you...

if the latter... Well... ok. Good to know.

[CatoFel]

The corruption of senators is a plot point for a reason, it allows the character to engage in the political process with an obvious antagonist. Most of those end in an arrested or dead corrupt official, too.

 

And man, are you people really arguing that an obviously facist slave state is a good place? Are you really that terrible? Cmon.

 

Awww, don't be that guy.

 

Some of us just see this is a "name your poison" situation, and we think that the Imperial "poison" offers the potential for more strength, order, and even stability. Something like that. Dunno who says the Empire is "a good place" as is. Both options are morally deficient in their own special ways, and the Republic can't really hope to purge corruption (for reasons others here have explained well) any more than the Empire can permanently curb the ambition of powerful warlords. Whether it's outlawed in the Republic or not, slavery still exists there. (Ineffectiveness is, after all, a deficiency.)

 

Personally, and I'm in no way suggesting that I speak for anyone else in this, I just find the premodern concept of political systems based on personal loyalties to be more appealing than modern systems predicated on bureaucratic authority and bland impersonal, institutional loyalties or rabid individualism. Both have drawbacks but, like Tolkien as he got older, I'd probably prefer real monarchy or community-oriented forms of anarchy to the insipid pretensions of the modern "democratic" state. Within the SW universe, I see certain Imperial ideals and institutions being closer to my druthers than the Republic's ideals and institutions.

 

Why bore you with this? Because people can be a little reactionary or complicated in their tastes and reasoning without being a "terrible person" or a fascist, or at least those you don't agree with oughtn't be brushed off that way as you try to. All good-natured, here, mind you, it is after all just a game.

 

P.S. - I think sometimes of the young Imperials in the Legacy of the Force book series who grumble that if there had been an Empire rather than the New Republic, the Vong could've been dealt with more easily. Impossible to prove or disprove, but it's possible they have a point. A strong Empire could offer more security than a confederation, regardless of quality-of-life issues.

Edited February 27, 2012 by CatoFel

[Kanana]

I don't see much democracy in the Republic. That the jedi order - who is about as far removed from democracy as you can get, being a cult of religious fanatics indoctrinated from birth, chosen from a few with the right in-born talents - has any say there is as much a point against it as the fact that member states can be aristocracies and monarchies and no one cares.

 

Of course it's still better than the Sith Empire with all the slavery and oppression, but from a modern point of view, those are two evil states fighting each other.

[Varangian]

I don't see much democracy in the Republic. That the jedi order - who is about as far removed from democracy as you can get, being a cult of religious fanatics indoctrinated from birth, chosen from a few with the right in-born talents - has any say there is as much a point against it as the fact that member states can be aristocracies and monarchies and no one cares.

 

Of course it's still better than the Sith Empire with all the slavery and oppression, but from a modern point of view, those are two evil states fighting each other.

 

Well of course they're "chosen from a few with the right in-born talents." You certainly can't be a Jedi if you can't use the Force.

[IroquoisPliskin]

What do you expect from "Rebels" They sugar count their mean by calling it "Just and Balanced" and think just because they think the empire is evil. they have the right to attack and destroy it.

 

In modern days terms, That is called Terrorism and the IA have every right to infiltrate and kill Terrorists.

 

That sounds like something I heard in my U.S history class. I for one am glad my ancestors where a bunch of terrorists.

[SalsaDMA]

I don't see much democracy in the Republic. That the jedi order - who is about as far removed from democracy as you can get, being a cult of religious fanatics indoctrinated from birth, chosen from a few with the right in-born talents - has any say there is as much a point against it as the fact that member states can be aristocracies and monarchies and no one cares.

 

Of course it's still better than the Sith Empire with all the slavery and oppression, but from a modern point of view, those are two evil states fighting each other.

 

Considered the alliances and negotiations the republic does, you'll find slavery, opression and general debauchery in the republic as well.

 

There's plenty of dark in the republic, and most of the time as a lightside character while leveling I was arguing AGAINST the choices the people in charge wanted to go forth with in order to 'fight the evil republic'.

 

The republic is only a nicer place to live in than the empire for some people. For others, it's way worse than the empire in its opression and evilness.

[Maaruin]

The republic is only a nicer place to live in than the empire for some people. For others, it's way worse than the empire in its opression and evilness.

 

For others? I can't think of any group of people for whom the empire would be a better place to live. Please name some.

 

(At least for citizens. Allies of the Empire might be a different story.)

[Erevan_Kindelar]

Based on the storylines that I have done so far, you will see examples of corruption in the Republic in the Trooper and Bounty Hunter class quest lines - the Bounty Hunter example is especially damning in my view, and that shows the power to corrupt that a huge institution with a lack of accountablity can have.

The Trooper storyline corruption issues are more along the lines of localised corruption that no-one can be bothered to do much about. Still not excusable, but not as bad.

 

However, there are several examples of quests in the Coruscant storyline and through onto Taris, which show that corruption in the Republic runs through the Senate Tower at every level. The player has a chance to take action in a couple of cases, but it does show that the Republic senators are in many instances as corrupt or xenophobic as their Imperial counterparts, and that as long as they can continue lining their pockets they are happy for the status quo to be maintained and the exploitation of the masses to continue.

[CatoFel]

Well of course they're "chosen from a few with the right in-born talents." You certainly can't be a Jedi if you can't use the Force.

 

Agreed. It's naiive to think that every society doesn't have its elites. A natural aristocracy of Force users makes more sense to me than one of rich people like ours.

 

The whole kidnapping-kids* bit shows a very ugly side of the Jedi Code, though, I'll agree there.

 

*somewhat hyperbolic, but still...

Edited February 27, 2012 by CatoFel

[Kheldras]

I don't see much democracy in the Republic. That the jedi order - who is about as far removed from democracy as you can get, being a cult of religious fanatics indoctrinated from birth, chosen from a few with the right in-born talents - has any say there is as much a point against it as the fact that member states can be aristocracies and monarchies and no one cares.

 

Of course it's still better than the Sith Empire with all the slavery and oppression, but from a modern point of view, those are two evil states fighting each other.

 

The Jedi order does NOT at all rule anything. If, the are servants of the republic. If they serve in an official capability "Jedi General" or work in the Republics name, they do so by mandate of the Republic.

 

 

 

And as you might have noted, its a Republic. Each planets political system sends a Senator representing this planet to a central political body. These Senators democratically vote on the whole Republics course.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Kheldras

[Jellison]

Very disappointed with the empire.

[Assaultrooper]

These Senators democratically vote on the whole Republics course.

 

I believe u sire are confusing "democratically" with simple consensus. When you speak of democracy you are talking of how much "the people" are involved in the process. Just to follow we can't say sparta was a democracy nor that it "democratically vote" on legislatours. Yet they did have a council of elders that decided evrything.

[SalsaDMA]

For others? I can't think of any group of people for whom the empire would be a better place to live. Please name some.

 

(At least for citizens. Allies of the Empire might be a different story.)

 

Really?

 

I'll pick the easiest one to showcase, just to point out how glaring it is without resorting to major spoilers: Belsavis.

 

But your comment is loaded, btw. In a republic the title 'citizen' isn't granted to everyone living in the republic.

 

That's part of why the empire can actually get support on different planets: Because the republic are treating parts of the populace like inferiors without any rights.

 

And to bring in a minor spoiler on another planet, to give an exact showcasing:

 

 

On Hoth, republic gets a mission where the given objective is to blow up a plant, that is incidently the home of a colony of orteleans. The Empire, on the other hand, gets the mission to save this plant.

While you as a republic character CAN go against your orders and decide NOT to blow up the plant, the republics pans still was to blow it and the orteleans skyhigh.

As an empire player the Orteleans display disbelief at first that this is what the republic wants, as they have been fed the propaganda that only the empire would do such things. For the empire player, When the orteleans realize that republic isn't interested in keeping them alive, they decide to support the empire since they are the ones interested in keeping them alive.

 

[Maaruin]

In advance: I'm sorry, I haven't played until the end of the storyline yet. So you have to explain a little bit.

 

Really?

 

I'll pick the easiest one to showcase, just to point out how glaring it is without resorting to major spoilers: Belsavis.

 

Sorry, I'm not on Belsavis yet. It is a prison, right? (Are you implying being prisoner of the Empire is better then beeing prisoner of the republic on Belsavis?)

 

But your comment is loaded, btw. In a republic the title 'citizen' isn't granted to everyone living in the republic.

 

I'm not talking about republic citizen, I'm talking of the empires citizen. Translate it: For neutral factions it might be better to ally with the empire then with the republic. But for actual citizens/inhabitants it's not.

(Btw which people don't have the title citizen?)

 

That's part of why the empire can actually get support on different planets: Because the republic are treating parts of the populace like inferiors without any rights.

 

I'm sorry, I will need examples here too. Haven't seen that yet.

 

And to bring in a minor spoiler on another planet, to give an exact showcasing:

 

 

On Hoth, republic gets a mission where the given objective is to blow up a plant, that is incidently the home of a colony of orteleans. The Empire, on the other hand, gets the mission to save this plant.

While you as a republic character CAN go against your orders and decide NOT to blow up the plant, the republics pans still was to blow it and the orteleans skyhigh.

As an empire player the Orteleans display disbelief at first that this is what the republic wants, as they have been fed the propaganda that only the empire would do such things. For the empire player, When the orteleans realize that republic isn't interested in keeping them alive, they decide to support the empire since they are the ones interested in keeping them alive.

 

 

 

I guess the Empire would blow up any planet if it serves their goals.

I couldn't find the Quest on the internet, do you have the name of it?

 

I tried to answer two questions:

1. Why do they plan to do this?

2. Who commanded it?

 

Edited February 27, 2012 by Maaruin

[Rouge]

When it comes to that Ortolan quest on Hoth:

 

 

Both the Empire and pirates use the Ortolan's facility for their energy needs, and instead of trying to take it over, the Republic local leadership apparently thinks it's more efficient to just blow it up. No forces needed to left to defend it against a takeover.

 

I quite enjoyed the quest with my SI as I could take a moral high ground in a conversation with Republic NPC during the mission, asking him did he join the military so that he could point guns at Ortolans and such, and eventually agreeing to leave the facility back to Ortolans when the Empire would leave the planet. The Ortolan Doren Tai talked how the "Republic was crusading" and how their actions are exactly against what the Republic supposedly stands for.

 

[PulseRazor]

There has always been a theme of dissent within the republic, the fact that star wars isnt colored with crass, ham fisted brush strokes of Good and Evil is what makes it so rich with flavor.

 

Sorry you are not pleased with your game experience, maybe you can go to college and start a career in video game developement and see if you can do any better. I look forward to playing your game.

[LyriaFrost]

Imperial Intelligence should (openly) run the empire. It would be so much more efficient, and (mostly) humane.

 

Give the sith a little dirtball planet somewhere, remove their ability to leave it, and let them happily murder each other.

Edited February 27, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Yescek]

First off: Holy thread batman. I don't think I've been engaged reading through a thread in a very long time.

 

Second: I have nothing to contribute to this thread. Only a +1 to everyone with a post longer than a paragraph.