So when full customization arrives, what happens in PvP?

[AJediKnight]

I want to preface this post by saying that I was always in favor of an appearance tab. Moddable gear wasn't quite that (there are still a lot of interesting greens and blues out there, Bioware), but it came a lot closer to the mark than I thought we were going to get. And, I might add, I believe the move to make endgame gear fully moddable is a huge step in the right direction, even if it raises some serious theoretical concerns.

 

Having said all that, what happens to PvP once people begin plugging their warmaster-level mods into orange gear? And no, I'm not being paranoid -- this is a really big problem. I mean, I believe it's very important to be able to judge a player's vulnerabilities based on their gear. It allows you to pick off weaker targets; hit the enemy where it hurts the most, etc. Once all oranges are essentially fair game for being the 'gear of choice' for your average high-ranking PvPer, how are we supposed to determine where to shoot, so to speak?

 

And don't shrug this question off, it is a mighty big deal. In fact, it was such a big deal in LOTRO that -- despite that game's pitiful PvP offering -- Turbine went out of their own way to make sure that appearance tabs didn't function in PvP because the developers were (shocker) concerned that people would mask superb gear with junk.

 

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Beyond this, Bioware, I have to also ask this: do you believe this undermines your policy on being so anal regarding weapon restrictions? Please recall that your argument for forcing every class to use a single type of weapon was that it 'allowed for easy identification on the battlefield' (even though this was proven to be absolute silliness given that people have never had any struggle in, say, WoW, telling a sword-wielding, heavy-armor-equipped warrior from a sword-wielding, heavy-armor-equipped paladin, but I digress...).

 

If people are going to suddenly be running around in level 11 oranges stuffed with gleaming level 50 purple mods, isn't that a much more confusing scenario for PvPers than trying to determine if the marauder attacking me with just one lightsaber might actually be a jugg? Or the BH with a carbine or sniper rifle or autocannon isn't... uh... well, what other Empire class fires missiles and uses death from above? Oh, right, none. Yeah, weapon restrictions are stupidity incarnate.

 

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Anyway... I'm just worried, is all. I understand that we're getting what we asked for, and I appreciate the gesture. But as a hardcore PvPer (I won't touch PvE in this game with a 10-foot pole) what are your plans to help us identify the weak from the strong? Or is this capacity being removed, in which case PvP becomes an absolute, dice-roll crapshoot (which I would argue removes a huge element to how we understand and manage gear-based PvP)?

Edited February 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[RabidPopcorn]

If people are going to suddenly be running around in level 11 oranges stuffed with gleaming level 50 purple mods, isn't that a much more confusing scenario for PvPers than trying to determine if the marauder attacking me with just one lightsaber might actually be a jugg? Or the BH with a carbine or sniper rifle or autocannon isn't... uh... well, what other Empire class fires missiles and uses death from above? Oh, right, none. Yeah, weapon restrictions are stupidity incarnate.

 

That's quite true, fortunately we don't have cross-server (yet?) so after many WZs you can identify by name I guess...

[AJediKnight]

That's quite true, fortunately we don't have cross-server (yet?) so after many WZs you can identify by name I guess...

 

I just think the whole 'one weapon per class' thing is a bit silly. Nobody has struggled over in WoW for the past 8 years because warriors can equip like 10 different classes of weapons, and single wield, and dual-wield, and sword-and-board.

 

But, as I said, the bigger issue here is what these changes are going to do to PvP in the immediate future. How the heck am I supposed to tell an entry-level 50 from some guy who has been grinding gear at the cap since the beginning of January? And, if the goal is to introduce such a high level of ambiguity, what is the point? How is this going to accomplish anything other than to make PvP less enjoyable?

 

To be frank, I feel like I am about to be griefed by this company on a massive scale.

Edited February 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[thrashpower]

Besides rank60 sabers I don't find it particularly easy to see what kind of gear people are wearing by looking at them. Lots of players are already rolling with hide helm and modable chestpiece in pvp.

I still find it easy to judge gear by watching their hp, just like wow.

[darthtoph]

I think this entire thread is a joke. Really, OP is afraid players will mask their superb gear with junk? Since when is that forbidden in MMOs? Newsflash, peeps are already using crafted Rakata gear with augment slots + crafted orange weapons + certain pieces of orange armor in both PvE and PvP, if done right, it's a far better option than the current PvP gear and 550+ Expertise.

 

I'm more worried about the fact BW is forcing players to use orange gear to stay competitive, it ain't like we have tons of options to choose from already - Republic Jedi outfits are mostly made up by the color white and/or different tones of shi.... I mean brown, looking like something Goodwill thew away.

[Mamono]

In the heat of the action, how to you see the difference between a Bounty Hunter merc with T1, or T2 or PvP gear? Please tell me that because it is the same outfit?

 

But, as I said, the bigger issue here is what these changes are going to do to PvP in the immediate future. How the heck am I supposed to tell an entry-level 50 from some guy who has been grinding gear at the cap since the beginning of January? And, if the goal is to introduce such a high level of ambiguity, what is the point? How is this going to accomplish anything other than to make PvP less enjoyable?

 

To be frank, I feel like I am about to be griefed by this company on a massive scale.

 

You know how make it so that numbers show on the HP bar?

As an other person said here, just take a look his HP and you will have youre answer. Do have 12k HP? Nah, he cant be good geard. Do he have 20k HP? Ok, that guy either is a tank or is quite good PvP geared.

 

There is your answer.

 

WTB "outfitter" so I can my SELF deside how my character want to look like.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Mamono

[AJediKnight]

I think this entire thread is a joke. Really, OP is afraid players will mask their superb gear with junk?

 

Yes. Question is, why aren't you? This isn't a first person shooter. Not everyone is walking into content with equal stats. And since stats matter, and are generally linked to appearance in theme parks, looks can kill.

 

Since when is that forbidden in MMOs? Newsflash, peeps are already using crafted Rakata gear with augment slots + crafted orange weapons + certain pieces of orange armor in both PvE and PvP, if done right, it's a far better option than the current PvP gear and 550+ Expertise.

 

One item =/= a set.

[Mamono]

Yes. Question is, why aren't you? This isn't a first person shooter. Not everyone is walking into content with equal stats. And since stats matter, and are generally linked to appearance in theme parks, looks can kill.

 

 

 

One item =/= a set.

 

Answer my question. How do you see the differentce bewteen T1 PvE and PvP gear in the heat of the combat?

Edited February 25, 2012 by Mamono

[TheRedNalroni]

Doesnt make a sodding difference, infact this is a good thing.

Too many times does the little guy get picked on constantly.

Looking different 'hiding' battlemaster gear or hiding low end gear is important. If people dont / cant read the tooltip on the character portrait or just tell what class theyre attacking by the abilities they use is the players own fault and will change with experience.

 

This in itself is a PVP skill.

Assassins Have to choose their targets very carefully. I play one and its probably going to have the biggest impact on that class being unable to determine between a character they can kill or cant due to the nature of their burst damage and 1-2 minute cooldowns. Its a life or death situation. You attack a geared healer with escape ability of Force cloak, Force shroud and Blackout on cooldown, your ineffectual and dead a lot of the time.

[kidatwood]

I just think the whole 'one weapon per class' thing is a bit silly. Nobody has struggled over in WoW for the past 8 years because warriors can equip like 10 different classes of weapons, and single wield, and dual-wield, and sword-and-board.

 

But, as I said, the bigger issue here is what these changes are going to do to PvP in the immediate future. How the heck am I supposed to tell an entry-level 50 from some guy who has been grinding gear at the cap since the beginning of January? And, if the goal is to introduce such a high level of ambiguity, what is the point? How is this going to accomplish anything other than to make PvP less enjoyable?

 

To be frank, I feel like I am about to be griefed by this company on a massive scale.

 

I don`t know when i go into a wz im not concerned about how the enemy is dressed i just want to kill everyone on the other side? Also i think that the way there doing it is going to give a boost to crafters because from what i read there going to become very popular /shrug.

[Mamono]

Doesnt make a sodding difference, infact this is a good thing.

Too many times does the little guy get picked on constantly.

Looking different 'hiding' battlemaster gear or hiding low end gear is important. If people dont / cant read the tooltip on the character portrait or just tell what class theyre attacking by the abilities they use is the players own fault and will change with experience.

 

This in itself is a PVP skill.

Assassins Have to choose their targets very carefully. I play one and its probably going to have the biggest impact on that class being unable to determine between a character they can kill or cant due to the nature of their burst damage and 1-2 minute cooldowns. Its a life or death situation. You attack a geared healer with escape ability of Force cloak, Force shroud and Blackout on cooldown, your ineffectual and dead a lot of the time.

 

Jupp true, but I guess the OP would like use to have some kinda screen over our heads so all our stats will show. That would help him quite a lot I guess........

[AJediKnight]

Answer my question. How do you see the differentce bewteen T1 PvE and PvP gear in the heat of the combat?

 

It's more an issue of the difference between someone in a full set of any PvP gear and absolutely none at all -- IE, telling the difference between some alt in greens and a guy who has invested some time in getting gear. Even if I can't spot the color differences (and, frankly, I can -- the T2 Jugg gear, for example, is red; the T1 is grey. Are you color blind? This isn't hard), a player who has invested weeks in acquiring PvP gear of any sort is more of a threat to me than an incoming 50 who dinged 6 hours ago.

 

I should be able to tell the difference.

[Mamono]

It's more an issue of the difference between someone in a full set of any PvP gear and absolutely none at all -- IE, telling the difference between some alt in greens and a guy who has invested some time in getting gear. Even if I can't spot the color differences (and, frankly, I can -- the T2 Jugg gear, for example, is red; the T1 is grey. Are you color blind? This isn't hard), a player who has invested weeks in acquiring PvP gear of any sort is more of a threat to me than an incoming 50 who dinged 6 hours ago.

 

I should be able to tell the difference.

 

Why do you not take a quick look at the targets HP? That will tell you everything you want. You know the target is a bounty hunter, you know the target is a mercenary because he heals. Then when you know his HP you will know what kinda gear he has.

 

Oh that is sooooo hard.

 

EDIT: And btw, there is no color difference between Champion Combat armore and PvE T1 and T2 gear. Not on the BH healing gear. Just checked to be sure.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Mamono

[illgot]

You'll start to learn people by their names instead of what gear they are wearing.

 

It isn't an issue in PvP because you should play smart no matter how your opponent is geared.

[Leiralei]

Interesting view. How can you tell? I guess you can also tell by how much damage they take when you hit them, which is variable to some extent.

 

I'd rather have the ambiguity, but if you pvp a lot you'll see certain names more often and possibly attack new names hoping for a fresh 50 instead of being able to tell immediately who is what rank.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Leiralei

[Syylara]

People who love PvP should be quite open to the idea of there being risk and uncertainty. As someone who is still working their way into Cent/Champ gear, I can say that there's no bigger turn-off to continuing to PvP than when you waltz into a 6v6 brawl over a node and the entire enemy team focuses on you, CCs you into oblivion and kills you in 3 seconds flat over and over and over and over again.

 

This happens because they can see "at a glance/instantly" that I'm under-geared and get that "free kill, more valor for me" mentality.

 

If they had to stop firing on their current targets, switch to me to see my HP or poke at me with a few attacks to see the results before even knowing if it were worth it, that probably wouldn't happen.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Syylara

[Dayfax]

I just think the whole 'one weapon per class' thing is a bit silly. Nobody has struggled over in WoW for the past 8 years because warriors can equip like 10 different classes of weapons, and single wield, and dual-wield, and sword-and-board

 

Two big differences:

 

WoW had restrictions on race/ class combos and most races were easy to distinguish from a distance. So when you saw an Orc wearing cloth, you knew he had to be a warlock because the game, at that time, didn't allow them to be priests or mages.

 

WoW also had mods that displayed unit frames by class color. So when you tab targeted and the frame was pink, you knew immediately the opposing player was a paladin.

 

In SWTOR, classes are much harder to distinguish, partially because each race does not have a set, distinct model.

 

Players in WoW raised the same objections to transmog gear (especially in arenas) that you're raising now.

 

Is this really an issue? I can still remember PvPers logging out in their fishing gear so people couldn't check out their "real" gear on the armory when they were offline.

 

To me, that's part of the fun. Ideally, if you're geared and any good, what the other guy may or may not be wearing won't make that much of a difference.

 

It sounds more like you're disappointed you won't be able to gank undergeared fresh 50s at the start of a game.

 

If so, to put it in brusk terms, that's a scrub game and not really PvP.

[Jedlosson]

While I understand OP's concerns, I do not share them.

 

Picking off people who are not top geared is not my idea of fun. I do not care if I am facing a Jedi Knight in full Battlemaster PvP armor or green PvE gear. More appearance variability is a welcomed change for me.

[Nastynas]

Wondering the same thing.

[justadude]

Ultimately BM gear is a crutch. Sure, it is earned and everyone going into level 50 pvp needs to know that. Especially the fully geared BMs need to realize that they will be grouped with lesser geared people, since it is part of the game.

 

It is sad to see so many people leaning on that crutch so heavily. If gear did not matter, ie. a fresh 50 had the same stats that a fully gear BM had (BM gear being vanity gear), skill would truly mean something. As we stand now, with the OP picking off easy target because the OP apparently does not have the skills to hurt the enemy where it counts most, the fully BM geared opponents, skill is not represented in pvp.

[Abanoth]

Making it harder to tell a person's stats by eyeballing in a good thing. It means new PvP'ers won't be singled out as much by medal-farmers or the elitists on their own team (especially once we get a vote-kick option).

 

Besides, after going a round with someone you'll typically have an idea what their gear level is at.

[Jestunhi]

my pvp gear set is champ / BM in the non visible / hand slots and 2 pieces of BM / champ armour for the 2 piece set bonus (legs and gloves - BH pvp armour isn't really my style but those 2 pieces aren't so bad). Then I have a col helm for the look and orange chest / boots.

 

So far the chest has a 140 rating advanced reflex armoring 25 in it and I'll apply the same thing to the boots when I loot / buy another one (they are BoE & drop in operations).

 

Currently an orange piece of armour can give Rakata gear stats, all the change will do is allow you to also use the cent / champ / BM armoring with less aim / end and more expertise. And 150 off the expertise of full BM gear is a minimal loss due to diminishing returns, plus you have increased damage / heal from main stat and increased health.

[iceperson]

lol. if you can't tell the guy with 2 sabers is a mara, the guy with a double ended lightsaber is an assassin, the guy with heavy armor and 1 lightsaber is a jugg, etc.. then there's nothing the devs can do. oh wait, can't you mouse over someone and see what they are too?

[Jestunhi]

lol. if you can't tell the guy with 2 sabers is a mara, the guy with a double ended lightsaber is an assassin, the guy with heavy armor and 1 lightsaber is a jugg, etc.. then there's nothing the devs can do. oh wait, can't you mouse over someone and see what they are too?

 

Exactly.

 

My armour may not look like a typical BH but once I start firing flame throwers and rockets it's not hard to see what I am.

 

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2057/screenshot2012021111083.jpg

[iceperson]

i'm going to go out on a limb and say the OP played wow arena where comp > skill and you just looked at your opposing teams gear and the rest of the match was pretty much scripted so whoever had the best comp wins.

 

if you can't figure out what another player is within 3 seconds of engaging then you're bad...