This game is TWO MONTHS old.

[gurugeorge]

It's basic MMO features and needs that they've failed at so far. That's the real problem.

 

Those are far from "basic MMO features", they're just QOL issues .

[Blackardin]

Few things:

 

- MMO's are not cars, so stop using that as a comparison.

 

- EVERY MMO has bugs.

 

- GW2 is not the second coming... sorry but its not.

 

- I'd like to see this "source" for the 300+ million spent making this game, cause all I can find are numbers like 85-100 million.

 

Even if you're comparing ToRs launch with Rifts (the closest thing time wise) it still has more features.

 

Btw.. for those who forget Rift did have:

 

11 zones

10 dungeons

2 cities

1 raid, Greenscale's Blight (arguably more buggy then EV)

4 warfronts

1 epic quest line

 

But didn't have, and like ToR didn't need:

 

LFG/X-server warfronts <--- Patch 1.2

Guild banks <--- Patch 1.3

Server transfers <--- Patch 1.3

X-Server LFG <--- Patch 1.4

 

What Rift did have that ToR should have had is a combat log and UI options but it was probably omitted for very good reasons.

 

Rifts UI bugged out for months, resetting whenever it felt like it, so it really shouldn't count.

 

TL;DR: The game is TWO MONTHS old...

 

What I find interesting is that the level of complaints about everything from poor graphics, lack of content, lack of end game inundated the Rift boards for about two to three months after release.....and now Rift is being utilized as a bat to beat SW over the head with, using the same type of complaints regarding this game.

 

I see 3 certainties here.

 

1. Those using Wow or Rift as a method of disparaging this game are here and not there.

 

2. The negative posts filled with conjecture and irrelevant comparisons are a standardized aspect of any MMO release and have been since UO.

 

3. There are approximately 1.7 million people enjoying this game compared to, on the high end, 1000 posters on this board promulgating its failure.

[SirRobin]

One's boredom with this game, this genre is not the fault of the manufacturer, especially when the numbers represent a very different outcome across the board. It is irrelevant to any discussion regarding the success or failure of the game as a whole.

 

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is just opinion.

 

So are you claiming that being bored with something is entirely the fault of the bored? What numbers do you believe supports that assumption? Nor do I recall me stating that my boredom meant this game is a failure.

 

I'm not sure what relevance this presents, unless one is postulating the assumed conclusion that the game is a failure, which would be, again, conjecture. In fact, it would be incorrect in totality.

 

The only place that this game fails is on this board, according to a very minute sampling. In reality, the game is quite a success, and holds strong promise.

 

Actually no, an assumption of failure does not have to be inferred. Some have claimed that it is unfair to compare TOR to more developed mmo's. Apparently implying that TOR should only be compared to the "launch state" of other mmo's instead.

 

However that claim itself implies that equal resources were involved during every mmo's development. Something which is pretty clearly untrue in this case. TOR was EA's biggest development project ever. So should we expect only a little more, at best, than what other mmo's with far fewer development resources delivered?

 

So you claim "opinion" and then imply yours is not?

Edited February 24, 2012 by SirRobin

[Blackardin]

Originally Posted by Lethality

It's unacceptable to pay your money for anything and not expect it to be an improvement over it's competitors... in every other case, that's WHY you would buy one product over another.

 

Actually, this statement is not true at all. There are so many variables involved in purchasing that, to make such an assumption formulated on such a narrow baseline is conjecture bordering on contradiction.

 

Even if one were to limit the realm of expectation regarding purchasing to a single parameter, it would be more likely, or more logical to assume that parameter is personal preference.

 

Even with that, LOL, except, once again, with a very small minority who's basis usually extends from a point of conjecture, the game is an improvement over past MMORPGs. Those changes and improvements, unlike much of the hyperbolic assertions being posted, are measurable and presentable.

[Blackardin]

So are you claiming that being bored with something is entirely the fault of the bored? What numbers do you believe supports that assumption? Nor do I recall me stating that my boredom meant this game is a failure.

 

I'm not claiming anything at all. I'm simply stating baseline facts. Boredom is defined as: the state of being weary and restless through lack of interest. Boredom can result from any occasion, event, really anything. One person can find boredom where another finds intense interest. You are bored with this particular game, I am fascinated and enjoying it. To argue who is right and who is wrong would be a point of futility, that based on the knowledge that the concept of emotion, and emotion tied to a particular stimulant is not something to be defined as absolute.

 

So, yes, I am not stating, but affirming that boredom is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

Actually no, an assumption of failure does not have to be inferred. Some have claimed that it is unfair to compare TOR to more developed mmo's. Apparently implying that TOR should only be compared to the "launch state" of other mmo's instead.

 

This would make sense. Comparisons have to maintain certain equal paramiters. Comparing a framed house to a completed house would be an incorrect comparison. In order to compare two entities along a developemental curve, one would have to demonstrate those comparisons at equal points along that curve, then take into consideration and formulate variables from that point on.

 

However that claim itself implies that equal resources were involved during every mmo's development. Something which is pretty clearly untrue in this case. TOR was EA's biggest development project ever. So should we expect only a little more, at best, than what other mmo's with far fewer development resources delivered?

 

So you claim "opinion" and then imply yours is not?

 

I'm not evoking opinion, just demonstrating errors in formulation of comparisons. Second is that if one were to allow for such comparisons, this current game does exceed past games in many areas. Case in point would be the voice acting, cut scenes, story line and questing over randomly formulated quests loosely maintained and only part of the generic label "leveling".

 

What we see are people formulating comparisons with no scientific method at all, simply cherry picking aspects that support their argument and rejecting aspects that do not. In short, not only opinion, but opinion represented as fact.

[pmiles]

Does anyone else find it amusing that someone expects to find a logical discourse about anything in an online gaming forum?

 

If we were all rocket scientists, we wouldn't be playing a video game to pass the time away.

[tadro]

guild wars will probably have great pvp and maybe good pve

 

but as for story...well....no....just no...ancient dragons that wake up and try to take over the world?Again???

 

since story always wins me in the end...SWTOR for me all the way

 

I m not saying I wont be playing GW2...but it wont excite me as much

[Blackardin]

Does anyone else find it amusing that someone expects to find a logical discourse about anything in an online gaming forum?

 

If we were all rocket scientists, we wouldn't be playing a video game to pass the time away.

 

Unless it had rockets in it. ;p

[gurugeorge]

If we were all rocket scientists, we wouldn't be playing a video game to pass the time away.

 

Umm, you might be surprised

[SirRobin]

I'm not claiming anything at all. I'm simply stating baseline facts. Boredom is defined as: the state of being weary and restless through lack of interest. Boredom can result from any occasion, event, really anything. One person can find boredom where another finds intense interest. You are bored with this particular game, I am fascinated and enjoying it. To argue who is right and who is wrong would be a point of futility, that based on the knowledge that the concept of emotion, and emotion tied to a particular stimulant is not something to be defined as absolute.

 

So, yes, I am not stating, but affirming that boredom is in the eye of the beholder.

 

So "feeling weary because one is unoccupied or lacks interest in one's current activity," has nothing to do with the activity? You appear to be implying that it is a one-way street and I don't think that is accurate. I don't believe that I am actually arguing that you should be bored or that I should not be. This is a general discussion board for this game and I find myself bored with the game. Seems like the right place to discuss it.

 

This would make sense. Comparisons have to maintain certain equal paramiters. Comparing a framed house to a completed house would be an incorrect comparison. In order to compare two entities along a developemental curve, one would have to demonstrate those comparisons at equal points along that curve, then take into consideration and formulate variables from that point on.

 

However comparing a house that cost two million to build to one that cost only half a million, and expecting them to be equal, would not be.

 

I'm not evoking opinion, just demonstrating errors in formulation of comparisons. Second is that if one were to allow for such comparisons, this current game does exceed past games in many areas. Case in point would be the voice acting, cut scenes, story line and questing over randomly formulated quests loosely maintained and only part of the generic label "leveling".

 

Apologies but that is what you are doing. Not to mention that what you think of as "many" is also a matter of some debate. It may exceed some games in some areas but it also falls short in others. Its an mmorpg in a market full of competitors. Comparisons are going to happen whether you feel they are justified or not.

 

What we see are people formulating comparisons with no scientific method at all, simply cherry picking aspects that support their argument and rejecting aspects that do not. In short, not only opinion, but opinion represented as fact.

 

So your cherry picking of the voice acting counts as scientific method but theirs does not? Apologies, again, but I think you are rating your own opinion a bit too highly. Its the general discussion board in the official forum for an mmorpg. You are going to find a lot of opinions here and your's is simply another one.

Edited February 24, 2012 by SirRobin

[Terans]

If we were all rocket scientists, we wouldn't be playing a video game to pass the time away.

 

Why?

 

What are rocket scientists meant to do to pass the time?

[DarthKhaos]

Does anyone else find it amusing that someone expects to find a logical discourse about anything in an online gaming forum?

 

If we were all rocket scientists, we wouldn't be playing a video game to pass the time away.

BAM!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=190123

BEST THREAD EVER!!!

[DarthKhaos]

So "feeling weary because one is unoccupied or lacks interest in one's current activity," has nothing to do with the activity?

Actually it doesn't. To some fishing is great and exciting to me it isn't. It is my opinion and views of fishing that makes it dull and boring for me and it is theirs that makes it exciting for them.

[gurugeorge]

So your cherry picking of the voice acting counts as scientific method but theirs does not? Apologies, again, but I think you are rating your own opinion a bit too highly. Its the general discussion board in the official forum for an mmorpg. You are going to find a lot of opinions here and your's is simply another one.

 

I think you're getting confused. Nobody on this side of the argument is "cherry picking".

 

1) the game cost a bit (or a lot) more than comparable games (depending on who you believe)

 

2) the "more" fairly obviously went into the VO, story, dialogues aspect. (Unsurprisingly, since that's BW's speciality, and one would expect them to play to their strengths). IOW BW thought that added content was valuable to them (because they thought it would attract new players to the genre, presumably).

 

3) some people don't think that's good sense on BW's part, others do. Some don't believe that the added value from that will be enough for BW to have a successful game, others do.

 

4) however whether that's good value for BW in the opinions of players who fancy themselves as amateur game designers, or cognoscenti of MMOs, or whatever (i.e. whether the player thinks BW spent its money well) is a different question from whether they as players thinks the game is worth a sub.

 

5) Again, some do think it's worth a sub, and think the VO adds value TO THEM (over other games or activities they could have spent the sub money on), others don't, and find the VO doesn't add any value FOR THEM (they'd rather play something else or do something else).

 

6) Regardless, the cost of a sub is about the same as any other game, so it's not as if the players are paying anything extra for the added content - there' no point in feeling insulted by the fact that BW have chosen to spend extra money on VO content (although judging from some of the hater crap, oddly, it seems like it's a personal affront to some that BW have chosen to make the game the way they have).

 

If one doesn't like it one is free to cancel the sub and go somewhere else. If one doesn't like it but still wants to stick with the game and encourage the devs to improve it the way one thinks it should be improved, one can stay and post constructively.

 

But hanging around and perpetually whining and dissing BW is a waste of the whiner's time and everyone else's.

Edited February 25, 2012 by gurugeorge

[MGriffith]

Actually no, an assumption of failure does not have to be inferred. Some have claimed that it is unfair to compare TOR to more developed mmo's. Apparently implying that TOR should only be compared to the "launch state" of other mmo's instead.

 

More or less, yes.

It takes time (and money) to develop game systems, user interface, content that utilises the game system. There is only a finite amount of time that a game can be held in development. At some point beta testing has to start and at that point either the company returns to investors and asks for another huge bag of money (and likely giving up their job), or they start working to ship the game.

So the reasonable comparison is to compare games based on development time. SW:TOR has 5 years of development, which is a little longer than most, but not that much longer and much of that was not so much content or system development but the time consuming dialog writing and recording.

 

However that claim itself implies that equal resources were involved during every mmo's development. Something which is pretty clearly untrue in this case. TOR was EA's biggest development project ever. So should we expect only a little more, at best, than what other mmo's with far fewer development resources delivered?

 

The amount of money is an inaccurate measurement at best. You are comparing not only different dollars (a dollar in 2001 bought a different amount of work than one in 2010), but also different needs for different generations of games. The quality of modelling in modern games is much higher than it was in the WoW generation, and that was much higher than of even older games. That means more work for the art department, and higher costs associated with the same amount of content. Bioware may spend between 3 to 10 times as much writing on a quest as do other games. That again makes the game more expensive for the same amount of money, but at the potential gain of higher replayability and higher player retention. But blizzard had to develop a game engine from scratch as there was nothing on the market that could match to what they wanted to do with WoW, so they had much higher initial cost outlay for that.

 

Staff size would give you a more precise comparison but that kind of information is not generally accessible. Historically games cut down their staff to one for maintaining the game and a much reduced one for bugfixes and new content development.

Later games maintain a bigger development staff, accounting for the more rapid rate of bugfixes and new game systems being added. And accounting for the fact that they need to play catch up with the established game that have had more time to add new features.

[fixit]

Its only beta.

 

Its only pre-release.

 

Its only one month.

 

Its only two months.

 

Its only a year.

 

Its only a......

 

Its only a lame excuse made by blind fanbois.

Edited February 26, 2012 by fixit

[Lunazen]

Yes. If you want the same content as WoW the solution is pretty simple.

 

 

Go play WoW.

 

 

This!

[Frostvein]

This!

 

If you want a MMO that lacks features standard to the industry since practically the birth of the genre, then go play Hello Kitty adventure Island.

[BlackZoback]

If you want a MMO that lacks features standard to the industry since practically the birth of the genre, then go play Hello Kitty adventure Island.

 

World of Warcraft was not the "birth" of the genre... /picardfacepalm

Edited February 26, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Frostvein]

World of Warcraft was not the "birth" of the genre... /picardfacepalm

 

Combat logs/UI customization were around since long before WoW, so /picardfacepalm yourself.

[Xtroll]

Few things:

 

- MMO's are not cars, so stop using that as a comparison.

 

- EVERY MMO has bugs.

 

- GW2 is not the second coming... sorry but its not.

 

- I'd like to see this "source" for the 300+ million spent making this game, cause all I can find are numbers like 85-100 million.

 

Even if you're comparing ToRs launch with Rifts (the closest thing time wise) it still has more features.

 

Btw.. for those who forget Rift did have:

 

11 zones

10 dungeons

2 cities

1 raid, Greenscale's Blight (arguably more buggy then EV)

4 warfronts

1 epic quest line

 

But didn't have, and like ToR didn't need:

 

LFG/X-server warfronts <--- Patch 1.2

Guild banks <--- Patch 1.3

Server transfers <--- Patch 1.3

X-Server LFG <--- Patch 1.4

 

What Rift did have that ToR should have had is a combat log and UI options but it was probably omitted for very good reasons.

 

Rifts UI bugged out for months, resetting whenever it felt like it, so it really shouldn't count.

 

TL;DR: The game is TWO MONTHS old...

 

I find it kind of funny how you say mmo's not are comparable then start comparing mmo's.... Not only that but you compare this TWO MONTHS old game with Beta stats and bugs from rift.....

 

Try looking up Rift Patch 1.2 when Rift was TWO MONTHS old, and see how much is addressed at that point?, In Mather of fact try to compare any of Rifts Major patches and take a look at how many Community requests they put in each month and their constant work on Balancing...., I assure you they didn't make a big deal out of fixing a few UI issues for the better.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Xtroll

[xioix]

This game has been in development for 6 years (with a 200 million budget). Edited February 26, 2012 by xioix

[Woke]

Its only beta.

 

Its only pre-release.

 

Its only one month.

 

Its only two months.

 

Its only a year.

 

Its only a......

 

Its only a lame excuse made by blind fanbois.

 

+1

 

/5chars

[tharnvedra]

I played Rift for 6 months and what a wild ride it was!

 

Greenscale, River of Souls, Hammerknell (3 raids) plus all the 10 men instances (3) and later on ember isle a whole new zone was added. New quests and rifts, several tiers of new gear and rewards, many changes in class balance and countless fixed bugs plus new warzones.

 

Please dont tell me its "only" 3 months. Rift felt like it was released twice over 6 months.

 

Did they prepare alot of the new content before release? Most likely. You cant blame them for being smart.

 

I didnt even expect to get more content from TOR but I actually expected some working systems in place for dailies and PvP. Hell, most mods in gear doesnt even make sense for some classes.

 

TORs weekly patches are a joke. Some exploits stayed in the game for weeks and one of my bugged talents was fixed 10 weeks after release. 10 weeks is like 2 mage class revamps and a new raid zone for Rift

 

Threads with good suggestions get moved around and nobody is able to fine them again. Bioware really needs to step up their game. Dont waste so much money on moderators fighting your customers.

 

How about class dev leads? Producers letters with your vision? I would really love to see some answers or a patch that shows that you actually listen to your customers.

 

Rift messed things up too but you always had the feeling they read their forum and good suggestions find their way into the game. Not once one of your patches surprised me like "wow what a nice idea actually better than the suggestions on this forum". All we get are nerfs to Biochem, classes, surge, PvP and every month one try to save Ilum.

[BlackZoback]

I find it kind of funny how you say mmo's not are comparable then start comparing mmo's.... Not only that but you compare this TWO MONTHS old game with Beta stats and bugs from rift.....

 

Wow reading comprehension fail for the win.

 

None of that is even remotely close to what i said.

 

The "cars are like mmo's" is a fail argument because cars are nothing like mmo's... does your spark pulg being loose make your windshield wipers flip upside-down and start wiping the hood? No.

 

And even if you still wanted to compare them do you know how long it took to have AC standard in a car?

 

Try looking up Rift Patch 1.2 when Rift was TWO MONTHS old, and see how much is addressed at that point?, In Mather of fact try to compare any of Rifts Major patches and take a look at how many Community requests they put in each month and their constant work on Balancing...., I assure you they didn't make a big deal out of fixing a few UI issues for the better.

 

How much more did Rift address in that two month period that ToR did not?

 

I'm really curious because I was there and ToR is on the ball for getting things in that where not in the original package.

 

And missing UI customization and combatlogs is not the huge deal you're making it out to be... and is being added in the next patch so is a moot point. If its "too late" for you and your quitting then MMO are not something you should consider playing in the future.