Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 A Companion is no different than needing for offspec in WOW. Most healers don't play as a heal spec while soloing. They dual spec into heals for dungeons and DPS for soloing. Companions are really no different. There's nothing new here. And needing for offspec in that game gets you booted from groups more often than not. Also, when Bioware makes the changes that the lead designer proposed, # 1 won't even exist in the game. Companions are a lot different than off-spec. Can I play 2 specs at a time in wow.? No.. Can I in ToR? In effect, I am. Me and the companion. Also, In wow, does my off-spec help my current spec? No.. In ToR does my companion help me to level? Yes. Without being too blunt, you're argument is totally flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 People who don't punch people who ninja for their companions in the nose make me sick. Funny.. bud sad.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Companions are a lot different than off-spec. Can I play 2 specs at a time in wow.? No.. Can I in ToR? In effect, I am. Me and the companion. Also, In wow, does my off-spec help my current spec? No.. In ToR does my companion help me to level? Yes. Without being too blunt, you're argument is totally flawed. WOW - A healer needs for his DPS spec so he can solo better. TOR - A player needs for his companion so he can solo better. Both the offspec and the companion serve the same purpose here. Also, neither the DPS spec nor the companion helped during the run, but players still needed for them and they're the ones that ended up with the loot. Both the offspec and the companion are technically "the player", but neither helped the group get through the content. Not flawed in the least Edited February 23, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I haven't slighted nobody. It's amazing how you guys get so defensive over this discussion and now I'm throwing insults? Ya... Pointless spam is your opinion. If you don't care to try and understand my side of the situation, then that's your prerogative. I've read your posts, and understand them fully. The most recent ones you've made are simply filler that are meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And I appreciate that it's inexplicably made worse by the jawa avatar above his name. That is a speciesist comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
universeman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Companions are a lot different than off-spec. Can I play 2 specs at a time in wow.? No.. Can I in ToR? In effect, I am. Me and the companion. Also, In wow, does my off-spec help my current spec? No.. In ToR does my companion help me to level? Yes. Without being too blunt, you're argument is totally flawed. Ok, we're really stretching things here. Do you use a companion 100% of the time in game? Do you ever use more than 1 companion at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Again, it's only fair if it's the consensus. Which it's not currently. If everyone needs for companions, then that way is fair, I agree. But since so many people pass on that gear when people are present that need it for their PC, these people are at an unfair disadvantage when grouped with people like you that DO need for companions. So, no, it's really not fair for all as you suggest. This is incorrect.. Want to discuss fair? Let's take an example.. 4 players, 1 boss, 2 class items. If we use NBG, 2 players get something, 2 players get nothing. If we use roll/pass. Assuming all roll; 2 Players get loot, 2 players get nothing. But.. 2 players now have 2 bits of loot that may not be for their class, which they can now sell to the players matching the class of the loot. Result.. 4 players, 2 with loot, 2 with credits. Are you saying 2 players with loot and 2 players with nothing is more fair than my last example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
universeman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've read your posts, and understand them fully. The most recent ones you've made are simply filler that are meaningless. You obviously don't if you think they were meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 WOW - A healer needs for his DPS spec so he can solo better. While he is soloing he is only using 1 spec. TOR - A player needs for his companion so he can solo better. The ToR player is using 2 specs while soloing. His characters and his companions. Both are required to level. Both the offspec and the companion serve the same purpose here. untrue. for the reasons I explained above. Also, neither the DPS spec nor the companion helped during the run, but players still needed for them and they're the ones that ended up with the loot. Both the offspec and the companion are technically "the player", but neither helped the group get through the content. You are assuming you have a right to question what a player does with loot s/he wins. You do not. Not flawed in the least I beg to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ok, we're really stretching things here. Do you use a companion 100% of the time in game? Yes Do you ever use more than 1 companion at a time? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So his sense of entitlement is valid and important. The other parties is not. Seems kinda contradictory to me. I have no sense of entitlement meaning I am no more entitled to items that mobs drop than anyone else in the group regardless of my class or companions. It's nice to get them when I can, but I never expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florial Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) BW don't need a better looting system. What we need is for people to realize, loot is not their until they win it. How is it, we got by for years and years on Everquest, without ever having a button at all? To answer your question, I think that the times have changed since Everquest days. Reputation was important in those games of old. Not to say that there weren't griefers but the communities in some of the older games were quite good. With more recent games like WoW and especially the implementation of the cross server LFG tool, I think that bad behavior has almost become a norm and people have gotten into bad habits over the years. I disgress but some player rushed in to tab a quest mob I had cleared my way to. A bit later he swooped in and took a node that I was standing on. I try to be polite and sent him a tell. He was actually apologetic and said that he had been ninjaed so many times in WoW that it has just become a way of life for him. He assumes that everyone else does it so why can't he? SWTOR is a tricky game where people see companions as an extention of themselves, loot can become quite an emotional topic. Heck, my spouse and I use our companions to solo many of the group activities and I love when they are all geared up. When I mentioned a better looting system, I would love to have a companion need button. I think that it could be a win-win situation for everyone. Quite a few times I've passed on gear for someone else in the group thinking that they may need it. Alas, many times it has gone to waste when no one really needs and I lost the roll for something that could have benefited a companion. I hate that many of the items are not tradeable so it adds insult to injury. Just a minor tweak to the loot system would probably make many of these conversations a moot point. Edited February 23, 2012 by Florial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) This is incorrect.. Want to discuss fair? Let's take an example.. 4 players, 1 boss, 2 class items. If we use NBG, 2 players get something, 2 players get nothing. If we use roll/pass. Assuming all roll; 2 Players get loot, 2 players get nothing. But.. 2 players now have 2 bits of loot that may not be for their class, which they can now sell to the players matching the class of the loot. Result.. 4 players, 2 with loot, 2 with credits. Are you saying 2 players with loot and 2 players with nothing is more fair than my last example? Why are you inventing something that doesn't even exist in the game? Whether your scenario is fair or unfair doesn't matter for the context of what we're talking about. The only way to truly make anything fair is to form a consensus that people stick by. - Everyone needs everything = Fair, but good luck gearing anything you need to. - Everyone need for main spec and companions = I guess this is fair.. though some classes get the short end of the stick, like Troopers who would never need anything but AIM. - Everyone needs for PC only = Fair, but good luck getting people to pass when they really don't need the loot. The only way any of these scenarios are "fair" with the current NBG system is if everyone is following the philosophy. Everyone doing their own thing will lead to arguments because people that play like me end up losing both PC and companion gear constantly because others needing for both. And then when I cave and start needing for companions so I can get a little of that "fairness", I end up ripping someone else off that is playing the way I used to play. My point is, stop acting like one way is more fair than another. Unless you're going to make it your personal mission to make sure everyone in the game knows the "right" way to loot, your way is no more fair than mine. The only difference is that mine has been an on going thing in WOW and RIFT, so a lot of players already play like I do. Edited February 23, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grecanis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The one we're primarily talking in this thread is the one in favor of people who think that the item belongs to class X based on some arbitrary set of conditions that aren't agreed on by everyone. the system you're in favor of is biased that way: it's biased against someone who places more value on gear for companions, or gear based on it's looks. Depending on your specific rules, it may favor people who'll mods but not the item or vice versa. open rolls (not restricting them based on your arbitrary criteria) is not biased in favor of anyone. It doesn't give people who value companion loot over everything else priority over people who don't. It doesn't give people who value appearance priority over people who value stats. It's totally unbiased, impartial, and unprejudiced. So basically you're saying that you don't necessarily care if the other player has the ability to compete if it means you get to look cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) [...] Likewise... that doesn't have anything to do with rolling need for loot that you want to equip to a companion though. Truth, ferroz. I was just saying that as bad, imo, as it is for a person to roll need for their companion, by them doing so after a person or two have already "properly" passed, it seems that it would be fairer if everyone got to know that was going to go down before the ones who passed clicked the X button on the do-you-want-to-roll popup. Edited February 23, 2012 by Jarvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
universeman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is incorrect.. Want to discuss fair? Let's take an example.. 4 players, 1 boss, 2 class items. If we use NBG, 2 players get something, 2 players get nothing. If we use roll/pass. Assuming all roll; 2 Players get loot, 2 players get nothing. But.. 2 players now have 2 bits of loot that may not be for their class, which they can now sell to the players matching the class of the loot. Result.. 4 players, 2 with loot, 2 with credits. Are you saying 2 players with loot and 2 players with nothing is more fair than my last example? The way the system is implemented, it's completely fair. Drops are random. If you'd rather it just be a random drop directly to the 2 players in question, just say so. I think everyone would agree that is fair as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 While he is soloing he is only using 1 spec. The ToR player is using 2 specs while soloing. His characters and his companions. Both are required to level. untrue. for the reasons I explained above. You are assuming you have a right to question what a player does with loot s/he wins. You do not. I beg to differ. I need for offspec so I can solo better and you need for companions so you can solo better. Neither helped during the dungeon run. You can beg to differ all you want... it doesn't make that statement any less true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grecanis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I hate that many of the items are not tradeable so it adds insult to injury. That there is my major beef with this system. If they would just add the ability to trade with the other group members then 90% of this would go away and any drama left would most likely point directly at the "ninja". (loot Jawa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laokoon Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) No, I'm going to have to say I disagree. These aren't purely subjective issues. Griefing someone isn't rational behvior; we both agree that your example was rude and insensitive behavior because that's not subjective judgement; that's just what the behavior you described is. What you were talking about doing in that example is objectively irrational behavior: you're talking about lashing out at someone for purely emotional and not intellectual reasons... Likewise, I'm talking objective fairness; I defined it quite a while back (probably at least a half dozen times in each of these threads): unbiased, impartial, unprejudiced. It's what the word means. If you want to add a bunch of subjective values on top of that, or wax philosophical about it, that's fine... but it's not reasonable to expect other people to agree with your usage of the term at that point. I guess we are at an impasse. You define "fair" one way, I define it another. That causes a fundamental disagreement that we can't resolve without at least one of us changing our definition of fair, which is unlikely to happen. Edited February 23, 2012 by Laokoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So basically you're saying that you don't necessarily care if the other player has the ability to compete if it means you get to look cool? Okay, this is a bit of a tangent, but I gotta say I disagree with your assertion. I know the community standards on this, and I abide by them, but I disagree. Being "able to compete" means being able to enjoy the game in the way you enjoy the game. Being able to look like the character you're playing means being able to play the game in the way you enjoy playing the game. Nobody is doing anything but playing a game, and how one person enjoys a video game has no more value than how another person does. They're both dev implemented aspects to the gear that improve the quality of the game. They don't just give every item stats. They give them looks. This is VERY important to some players. How you enjoy playing a video game has no more value than how another person enjoys playing a video game. Which aspects of a video game they enjoy is not a determination on a person's depth or shallowness. It's not as important to me as it is to other folks, but I've turned down slightly better gear just because it looked stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fainthftk Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wow, this thing is still going? I think it is safe to say that the group of people here aren't going to come to a solid agreement. So... Do what you feel you need to do! After reading most of this stuf, i can only agree. I ofc roll need on stuff for my companions. They are valuable assets that work at peak performance only if equiped with the best available gear. How do i NOT need that?? I have run quite some ops/fps with a comp healer or dps. And every time they performed good due to rakata-level gear. Some people ignore their comps and just have em doing erands and wonder why they dont perform well ? Those poeple didnt even look at their actions bar nor made an attemp to configure em properly. But flame ME for equiping them properly ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 - Everyone needs everything = Fair, but good luck gearing anything you need to. Why do you say that? Surely if everyone is rolling the same dice, each has a fair chance of winning? - Everyone need for main spec and companions = I guess this is fair.. though some classes get the short end of the stick, like Troopers who would never need anything but AIM. Then have an even easier time of gearing up. - Everyone needs for PC only = Fair, but good luck getting people to pass when they really don't need the loot. I think you are assuming that players don't click pass when they do not need? The only way any of these scenarios are "fair" with the current NBG system is if everyone is following the philosophy. Everyone doing their own thing will lead to arguments because people that play like me end up losing both PC and companion gear constantly because others needing for both. And then when I cave and start needing for companions so I can get a little of that "fairness", I end up ripping someone else off that is playing the way I used to play. My point is, stop acting like one way is more fair than another. Unless you're going to make it your personal mission to make sure everyone in the game knows the "right" way to loot, your way is no more fair than mine. The only difference is that mine has been an on going thing in WOW and RIFT, so a lot of players already play like I do. My way has already been proven beyond reproach, to be fairer than any method you have countered with. Your way has been going on since wow, so what? Mine has been going on since the birth of MMOs and before to be more exact. Your way, the players that match the class, get loot, the rest get nothing. My way, everyone gets something. Heck, round robin is better than your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I need for offspec so I can solo better and you need for companions so you can solo better. Neither helped during the dungeon run. You can beg to differ all you want... it doesn't make that statement any less true. Again! How many times do you need to be told !! It doesn't matter! If I was there to help kill the boss, I get to roll on the loot. You do not get to question anything after that! Your statement is completely and unequivocally false. Show me anywhere that states you have any right to question what I do with loot I win? Anywhere at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grecanis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Okay, this is a bit of a tangent, but I gotta say I disagree with your assertion. I know the community standards on this, and I abide by them, but I disagree. Being "able to compete" means being able to enjoy the game in the way you enjoy the game. Being able to look like the character you're playing means being able to play the game in the way you enjoy playing the game. Nobody is doing anything but playing a game, and how one person enjoys a video game has no more value than how another person does. They're both dev implemented aspects to the gear that improve the quality of the game. They don't just give every item stats. They give them looks. This is VERY important to some players. How you enjoy playing a video game has no more value than how another person enjoys playing a video game. Which aspects of a video game they enjoy is not a determination on a person's depth or shallowness. It's not as important to me as it is to other folks, but I've turned down slightly better gear just because it looked stupid. I get your point and can somewhat agree with it. I also value looks, but not at the expense of a groupmember actually improving the character they are playing at the time. I have a Sentinal and a Smuggler who both wear the lv 11 Drelliad because I think it works for them. I also have other toons which I've spent many hours and creds finding the gear I want on them. There are many ways to aquire gear in this game that don't require you to grab something that will improve one of your fellows. One merely has to expend a little time and effort in it's persuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) After reading most of this stuf, i can only agree. I ofc roll need on stuff for my companions. They are valuable assets that work at peak performance only if equiped with the best available gear. How do i NOT need that?? I have run quite some ops/fps with a comp healer or dps. And every time they performed good due to rakata-level gear. Some people ignore their comps and just have em doing erands and wonder why they dont perform well ? Those poeple didnt even look at their actions bar nor made an attemp to configure em properly. But flame ME for equiping them properly ?? You can tell who neglects their companion in game by the...... "Can someone help me finish the story line quest? I can't kill this guy...." My general response is "How geared is your companion?", which is usually followed by "What? What do you mean? Who cares!". You = Companion, Companion = You, need roll is justified. Edited February 23, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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