My 2 cents on Marauders.

[Avengelyne]

Please Note Im only level 34 & Yes I'm aware of the 'Its gets better @ 50' statements out there. I DO NOT have a Naga or any other specialized hardware - neither should I have to get any to play just 1 aspect of a huge game, when the rest of said game is amazing without it. Oh I've also played a Sorc to 50 & a BH/Assassino to 30

 

In my experience playing a Marauder is like playing 2 classes at once, especially in PVP, its ridiculously over-complicated trying to keep up with all 30 or so Abilities I have already & I'm not even 50 yet. That doesnt include 5 I need for Warzone Med Packs, Adrenals, Standard Medpacks & 2 Relics. Or My Buff. Or my Channeled Hatred.

I feel that it can be so overwhelming that the community ostracises what would otherwise be a fun class to play. If you dont believe that you can just search for all the people who've said they are either complaining/asking for a fix or dropping their Mara for either something else entirely or dropping sub completely.

 

Damage:

I already stated Im not 50 yet so I wont say a whole lot but dmg per rage seems lower per ability in pvp than it does for say Sorc's of equal level. Perhaps that could be looked at. PvE seems to be fine so far, not had any real troubles in that respect-even without Quinn so pvp issues could be related to any base expertise but I only just thought of that and have nothing to sunstantiate the claim.

 

 

Crowd Control:

I've seen suggestions for a CC - For PvE, yes perhaps one might be useful - just change up the droid one to accomodate humanoids of any type - Its annoying to get grouped with a Jugg, another Mara & a Sorc and only having 1 CC facing packs of 3-5 gold elites, however I can see that bad grouping like that is one way to time-sink your players as they either spend time wiping or waste even more time trying to find a more balanced group.

 

NOTE: Yes there is the arguement that you dont need Heroic quests to level effectively and that they can be bypassed. However, what would be the point? If its not needed, why have developers waste time creating it? The content WAS created so they must want us to see it--it stands to reason that it should be the case they should also provide us with the appropriate tools to manage such content-- regardless of group make-up/zone.

 

I dont think a PvP CC is needed though. Obfuscate is pretty useful in a 2on1 situtation, even moreso if your defensive CD's are ready.

 

Ability Cooldowns:

The rather obvious one to be looked at really - given that there is little to no self healing outside the Annihilation tree, certain ability CD's seem overly long. 3mins is a long time in PVP to go without Saberward for example, even moreso if Invis & Obfuscate are also on CD. In group combat situations Cloak of Pain is pretty much useless.

 

If anything i'd like to see Predation changed to be similar to the Force sprint ability that inquisitors have--or if it continues to be linked to Fury, then the fury mechanism could be revised to either less stacks required, or longer time between gaining each stack for example. Certainly in Huttball I next to never seem to have predation available unless i got a pocket healer.

 

Talent changes:

Perhaps altering a few abilities or talents to compensate areas where Marauders are too weak such as:

Example: 3 point talent that gives you a percentage chance to either be Immune to push/pull effects for 7s when Force Charging/Obliterating OR to allow the CD of Force Charge to be reset when your hit by a Push/pull effect within 10second of Force Charging.

 

Or Give us a Push/pull of our own so we spend less time out of combat.

 

 

Summary:

I do not mind in the slightest that Marauders are difficult to play well, despite my opening statement--if that design is it to try to improve the skill of the overall gaming player base, then so be it--I do mind however that such difficulty is limited to only 1 Class out of 8 (2 if you count Mirrored classes).

I also mind that, despite the difficulty required to learn to play one well the reward for doing so isnt all that great when comparing them to other classes & thier achievements vs thier difficulty to learn & play.

If your going to make a class difficult to play, make them all equally difficult or equally easy.

 

Despite what some people say Marauders definately need something. Though Im not sure what exactly.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Avengelyne
edit for grammar or something :)

[Darkraid]

I understand some frustrations you have, but I urge you to keep playing.

 

The only thing I see wrong with the mara at this point is some bugs we have with vicious slash/charge and other annimations, I think some of it is server driven latency.

 

This class if played correctly is very powerful, regardless. I'm not mentioning the frustrations I've had with this class because I've had plenty, it just takes a while to learn it. I've found most of my complaints to be because I was doing it wrong.

 

Have a nice day.

 

EDIT: FYI I dont play with a naga, I play with a thumb track ball type mouse. I am a pro mouse clicker. The only keys I use are ASDW TAB Spacebar.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Darkraid

[Albaatros]

First in.

 

Get to 50 and learn to play. We're fine. When I do 100k more than anyone else in a warzone or see my damage in PVE, I fear being nerfed.

 

So really, we're fine.

[syncronius]

i dont want to nag here, but yesterday i started a post similar to this one and ur posting exactly the same... except ur posting it in blue, ur even almost completely taking over some suggestions, wich i'm fine with, but wouldnt it be better to stick to one topic...

 

there are TONS of post about 'my spec', or 'whats the best pvp spec', if there were any dedicated moderators here, like they have at cough cough blizzard cough cough then this wouldnt be the case, and making the forums ALOT easyer to read.

 

and to the poster above me... its easy to say... 'learn to play' much harder to provide usefull information, if thats all you have to say, i'd encourage you to stay away from topics like this. And if ur doing 100k dmg more then everyone, then u either have someone healing you, or the rest of the warzone is just painfully terrible. And when it comes to pve, u cant compare dmg as u dont have any combatlogs, or damage meters to compare yourself to other classes.

Edited February 20, 2012 by syncronius

[miliways]

I feel that it can be so overwhelming that it ostracises what would otherwise be a fun class

 

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

 

 

Seriously though, Mara is the highest skillcap. If you don't want that, roll another class. There SHOULD be a more complicated class. Lots of us got into Marauder wanting that.

 

We have some problems, (I'd like force pull or push, please!) but the class being complicated isn't one of them.

 

Definitely leveling solo gets frustrating in the 30s, too easy to die to a patrol add, not enough ways to sustain a fight (bring Quinn). A Sorc can CC one enemy, heal self, use all kinds of abilities, while our only option is to just DPS like crazy and hope the enemy dies before we do.

 

We're fine in group PvE and we're okay in PvP, although I"d like to see us do a little more damage to balance the crazy number of knockbacks, stuns, cc, etc. in this game. Melee is at a disadvantage.

Edited February 20, 2012 by miliways

[Avengelyne]

First in.

 

Get to 50 and learn to play. We're fine. When I do 100k more than anyone else in a warzone or see my damage in PVE, I fear being nerfed.

 

So really, we're fine.

 

Missed quite alot of the point there eh? But trolls need food i guess.

 

Playing ANY class should be good or 'Fine' as you put it - through the WHOLE of the game & gameplay--no one part of it should be better or worse than the other.

With Marauder's the general concensus is 'Get to 50--then were <insert buzzword related to your individual skill>' but there are hours, nay DAYS/weeks of gameplay that is frustrating, annoying and down-right ridiculous in places to be able to reach 50 in the 1st place.

 

Any other class you can mention, and any class I've played so far--has, BY COMPARISON, got better pre-50 gameplay & is 70% easier to play than the Marauder.

I'm not saying 'Dumb-down' Marauders 70% either but like it or not ALL classes should be able to appeal to ALL types of players, Good or Bad--Not just 'skilled' ones.

 

My stance--for better or for worse--is 'Make them equally hard or equally easy or dont make them at all'. I would prefer, personally, that they were all as equally difficult to play in an attempt to increase the player populations base skill at gaming in MMO's.

 

The problem with making only 1 class difficult is that you end up losing players playing that class & fulfilling the roles they are supposed to play becomes harder aswell as making the existing pool of players an elitist group because you HAVE to be in order to play one well.

Thats stupid, no matter how you look at it.

 

 

@ Syncronius:

 

I had not read your post, I didnt even know it existed, I didnt even bother too look what threads were there already when I started mine but it appears your under the impression that I basically steamrolled some of your ideas and made them into mine to make my post somehow better & more important - thats not the case & it was not done with intent.

Take the Knockback Resistance idea--I made comments in this thread Bring Balance to Marauders back on the 10th. Worded slightly differently than todays post because I couldnt remember exactly what I originally said but you get the point. I also passed comments on Force Choke exactly like yours.

 

While I do agree that there are similarities some things are different - Like your asking for a lower CD on the CC Breaker - Im asking for lowered CD's on Abilities in general but erring towards Saberward & Obfuscate, Not the same thing.

 

I dont see the Predation idea in your post anywhere either.

 

That said: Im happy for you to pick apart the ideas I posted & add them too suggestions in your post if thats something you'd want to do--I am in no way trying to take away the spotlight from your post to add it to mine, there are good ideas in there and it would be bad for Marauders if posting ideas on the web became a competition between independant thinkers rather than a collaberation.

If you dont want to do that Im also equally happy to re-write my ideas specifically into a post on your thread so you can add them C&P and get my thread deleted.

 

Aslong as the ideas are seen & considered i dont care who takes the credit for either suggesting them or compiling them into a nice list in 1 place.

[Avengelyne]

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

 

 

Seriously though, Mara is the highest skillcap. If you don't want that, roll another class. There SHOULD be a more complicated class. Lots of us got into Marauder wanting that.

 

 

Erm.. Assuming you mean ostracise-I think it means to expel, banish, cast-out, shun, shut-out, throw-out etc.

So a complicated class gets shut-out, banished, thrown-out by the community because its too complicated.

 

Though now it has me wondering what YOU think it means

 

And your comments are exactly what im getting at--in your opinion Marauders should be difficult, thats what you play it for.

Its my opinion that no single class should stand out in difficulty as much as the Marauder does in a MMO setting because it upsets the balance of play & becomes limited to a select number of people. When it comes to end game those select people are taken & in short supply.

Dont get me wrong I enjoyed playing my Marauder but at the same time its so frustating and unecessarily complicated that i've taken a break to play other games while i get it out of my system.

As a paying customer i dont want to wade through 49 levels of pain & misery too get to 50 when ALL other classes have a smooth difficulty curves that borders over easy- i'd only accept that if they were ALL equally difficult. They are not.

[FINALBOSS]

I usually only use Predation in certain situations--Voidstar through the doors spamming sweeping strike, or carrying the Huttball...in which I'd pop Fury + Predation.

[darth_billy]

Talent changes:

Perhaps altering a few abilities or talents to compensate areas where Marauders are too weak such as:

Example: 3 point talent that gives you a percentage chance to either be Immune to push/pull effects for 7s when Force Charging/Obliterating OR to allow the CD of Force Charge to be reset when your hit by a Push/pull effect within 10second of Force Charging.

 

 

really good suggestion if you have no problem i would like to add it to my thread which refferrs on the same issue

 

 

about the chaotic keybinds:

i had a hudge problem with my keybinds they were too many and I HAVE to use at lest 80% of them consistently. Due to the fact that i consider giving 80euros for mouse stealing , i dont use mouse at all,actually the only occasion i touch my mouse is to pass the ball on hutball.

now i have 11 keybounds on my left hand around aswd and 23 on my right(around the numpad) . I simply keybinded target nearest/next enemy and nearest friend and everything works smoothly the fact that i dont have to use alt,ctrl and shift anymore makes things even more easier.

Edited February 20, 2012 by darth_billy

[ShiroRX]

I hate to sound like a philosophical a-hole (not really, i love sounding this way), but the deciding factor for this class is whether the player carries the Heart Of The Blade in them.

 

Be strong willed, fearless, and enjoy subjugating the peons you fight and you shall be successful. This is my playstyle, and it works well.

[mrHaterade]

I hate to sound like a philosophical a-hole (not really, i love sounding this way), but the deciding factor for this class is whether the player carries the Heart Of The Blade in them.

 

Be strong willed, fearless, and enjoy subjugating the peons you fight and you shall be successful. This is my playstyle, and it works well.

I salute you. You are 100% correct. Some people call us masochists. I call us, "Not P***ies."

Edited February 20, 2012 by mrHaterade

[HBninjaX]

oh you think you have too many abilities already? there's still a few more crucial ones coming down the pipe, where are you going to map those? haha

[ShiroRX]

oh you think you have too many abilities already? there's still a few more crucial ones coming down the pipe, where are you going to map those? haha

 

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900

[HBninjaX]

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900

 

I actually picked one of those up. It feels a little odd at first, but I'm liking it now. I mapped frenzy, blood thirst to the 2 extra buttons up top and use the 7-12 keys because the numpad option seems to bug out on me

 

I have flip-flopped so many times on the marauder, because it can either be the most insignificant class or the most imba class depending on so many variables. I would say if we were to get anything it should be pbaoe damage debuff

Edited February 20, 2012 by HBninjaX

[Kalimist_]

It's utterly impossible to equalize the difficulty of all classes - there has never been and there will never be a noteworthy MMORPG that manages to offer that sort of balance.

 

Apart from that I can understand the general frustration but if you think playing a Marauder/Sentinel pre-50 is frustrating, then try a Jugg for a change. That's some real frustration.

 

Just learn to use your cooldowns wisely (f.e. a common mistake that you see VERY often would be, that the majority uses Force Camouflage only when they're low on health as an escape tool - which most of the time doesn't work against decent players) and pick the right fights. Well... Huttball is a REAL pain for Marauders but otherwise it's not as bad as many claim it to be.

[mrHaterade]

I would say if we were to get anything it should be pbaoe damage debuff

I think the Fury buffs need to be changed. Berserk is amazing for Annihilation, so so for Ataru, garbage for Shii-Cho. Predation is great for running away from a fight, and I guess for running into one, but not much else. Blood Thirst is ok, but really not a level 44 ability, and definitely not deserving of a 5min cooldown.

[Avengelyne]

@Darth_Billy: Yes, Go ahead. The more available they are the more likely they are to be noticed.

 

 

It's utterly impossible to equalize the difficulty of all classes - there has never been and there will never be a noteworthy MMORPG that manages to offer that sort of balance.

 

I respectfully disagree.

We can also agree to disagree as not to spend 5 pages arguing opinions.

 

As a long time wow player in a top 10 server guild I am aware of the overall difficulties in class balance as it refer's to ability strength & dynamics, having seen the fluctuations that games classes have gone through, though thats not what I mean.

 

In the terms we are discussing it is absolutely possible to equalize the difficulties of each class within an acceptable margin--or more importantly, Pre-release it would have been, by not giving Marauders 45 different abilities to remember to use & making ALL of them an important factor in playing the class WELL--Unlike the Sorcerer which has around half that, with many of thier abilities on fluid CD's that allow you to transition smoothly through rotations while still giving you 'Oh ****' buttons.

 

As I said Im 34 now and im halfway into my 3rd Quickslot bar and that just takes into account required Abilites for both PvE & PvP. As stated before that does not include Adrenals, Medpacks (Warzone & Standard types), Relics or the Huttball, thats 6 right there--I'd need even more if I had Biochem.

 

My 50 Sorc by comparison has 2 & half slots and I dont need all them all the time to play it well.

 

Thats what I meant by equalizing the difficulties.

 

@ HBninjaX

 

oh you think you have too many abilities already? there's still a few more crucial ones coming down the pipe, where are you going to map those? haha

 

Right now no idea lol.

 

When not being frustrated or annoyed with it I do genuinely like playing the Marauder and when compared to other classes I feel cheated that they are so much harder to get to grips with & learn to play well than other classes that are available--Again, as stated already--I would have preferred if BioWare had made them ALL this hard to play so I'm able to make better choices when picking a class.

MMO's shouldnt have an easy mode or hard mode choice @ the character selection screen - the difficulty should be on the content itself and not 'How' you play through the content.

 

That said though my problem with Marauders doesnt stem from the difficulties people have with learning to play one, though that is an issue in itself, my post mainly revolves around talents and abilities that could do with some work/adjustments/changes in order to make Marauders competitive through out thier entire gameplay not just at level 50 where many say it evens out.

 

Truth be told I wouldnt recommend the Sith Warrior class to someone who isnt used to MMO's/RPGs even if they were a quality gamer in other aspects because Marauders aren't an accurate representation of the game as a whole--difficult to learn & even harder to master, poor performances pre50 in both PvE & PvP and in need of attention.

 

Im not saying every other class or spec is perfect, in fact turnabout suggests BioWare have actually done a good job in keeping the rest of the classes relatively close together with only fairly minor issues affecting thier gameplay but there is clearly a large gap between warriors and everyone else--and not in a good way.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Avengelyne

[Kalimist_]

 

I respectfully disagree.

We can also agree to disagree as not to spend 5 pages arguing opinions.

 

As a long time wow player in a top 10 server guild I am aware of the overall difficulties in class balance as it refer's to ability strength & dynamics, having seen the fluctuations that games classes have gone through, though thats not what I mean.

You're not actually trying to say that all classes are equally difficult to play in WoW? WoW has one of the hugest skillgaps between certain classes in the history of MMORPGs.

We're talking competitive PvP obviously, because in PvE it's more about communication, knowledge and adapting to the situation, rather than really being good at a class.

 

And yeah, there's nothing to argue if you think a DK has ever been even closely as difficult as a Rogue or Hunter for example. I could easily divide all classes or specs into the three categories easy, medium and hard to play/master.

Apart from that... top 10 server doesn't really prove your point.

[darth_billy]

prepare yourself for all sorts of l2p ,keep qq i want the buff, whiner, more l2p , screenshots of wz before lv50 barcket , more l2p comments.

some people are too stuborn to admit that they devoted time to an unbalanced class which actually is smth they should be proud of.

 

once i tried to play a sage . i did till lv 20(i was bored) it was too easy.

easy to do high dmg and get medals with a few keybinds and a lazy attitude.

Actually dmg was hialriously easy since you have 2 hard hitters with 30m range on 6sec cd and a knowback while standing on a ramp.

Edited February 21, 2012 by darth_billy

[grueber]

Maruader begins to shine around 30 for me. Being anni-specced you can deal out ridiculous amounts of damage as long as your properly geared and have a good skill rotation. Major thing is to know when to use cloak of pain/saber ward.

 

Several of the abilities are pvp/pve and I swap them on/off my two lower bottom bars.

 

I also hotkey the basic attack to E and take it off the bottom bar. I save a quickbar slot and it saves time once your used to it.

 

I just got a sniper to the mid-30's and he's a major disappointment in solo PvE capability. His basic attacks pale in comparison and his damage mitigation capabilities are horribly weak in comparison.

Edited February 21, 2012 by grueber

[xDreegan]

Maruader begins to shine around 30 for me. Being anni-specced you can deal out ridiculous amounts of damage as long as your properly geared and have a good skill rotation. Major thing is to know when to use cloak of pain/saber ward.

 

Several of the abilities are pvp/pve and I swap them on/off my two lower bottom bars.

 

I also hotkey the basic attack to E and take it off the bottom bar. I save a quickbar slot and it saves time once your used to it.

 

I just got a sniper to the mid-30's and he's a major disappointment in solo PvE capability. His basic attacks pale in comparison and his damage mitigation capabilities are horribly weak in comparison.

 

No offense to you, but everyone who claims awesomeness and then says they're Anni specced makes me want to strangle them.

 

As for your problems with the Sniper send me a PM and I can help you work that out. It was a bit confusing for me but I got it down now.

[Kalimist_]

No offense to you, but everyone who claims awesomeness and then says they're Anni specced makes me want to strangle them.

And why is that? It's easily the best spec for group utility, single target sustained damage and probably the only spec in the entire game which lets you kill a capable healer with similar gear without any help.

 

Apart from that it's way harder to master Annihilation than Carnage - and don't make me start on Rage.

[DarthAgonus]

And why is that? It's easily the best spec for group utility, single target sustained damage and probably the only spec in the entire game which lets you kill a capable healer with similar gear without any help.

 

Apart from that it's way harder to master Annihilation than Carnage - and don't make me start on Rage.

 

That's definitely your opinion, man-bro-dawg. I had to switch from Carnage to Annihilation, because of the way I played. imo, annihilation was a lot easier to play than carnage. I fumble with carnages direct damage and really like DoT. I can sustain damage far better in PvE and PvP. I'm not saying it's the easy spec, it's just different.

 

And really, what's the rap with Rage... I don't get it? I never tried it, so I am not being snarky when I ask, why its ridiculed?

[mrHaterade]

That's definitely your opinion, man-bro-dawg.

Indeed. Difficulty is 100% subjective. For me, Annihilation was so easy it bored me back to Carnage. Great spec, very powerful, possibly the "best" one. But holy crap is it simple and boring. Carnage is just what it claims to be: a big @5$ mess o' violence.

 

I think people's beef with Rage is the notion that it's a one-trick-pony. That pony being Smash. I don't really like it as I'm not a big fan of AoE. I like to stab faces till they break.

Edited February 21, 2012 by mrHaterade

[Kalimist_]

Ehm, no.. it's not really opinion-based. It is simply harder to play Annihilation to its fullest potential, period. It is THE most focus intensive spec and you really have to constantly keep an eye on 4 short term cooldowns - if you don't use them the moment they're up, you're already not doing it optimally.

While playing Carnage all you have to do is managing Gore to boost your upcoming attacks and further in combination with Blood Frenzy -> Force Scream.

Rage... learn how to land most of your Smashes and be more careful to time your Charge correctly, that's pretty much it.

 

No offense (seriously), but if you think Annihilation is easier than one of the other two, something's wrong.