GreymaneAlpha Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The "MMO community" is irrelevant in this instance, because BW are obviously not interested in a quixotic crusade to entertain a a bunch of bored people who are jaded with MMOs and basically will never be happy. They're interested in getting new players who don't have many preconceptions, and who couldn't give a toss what the famous "MMO community" thinks, because the famous "MMO community" isn't even on their radar. How about an alternative theory: BioWare refuses to learn from previous MMOs, and insists on re-inventing the wheel over and over again for basic mechanics, UIs, engine choices, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadtoArkham Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 No you do not , yet expecting changes to be made because of you is not going to happen either. Cause I don't play this game for you, now do I? I do agree with this, personally. But many of the issues raised, definitively not all, but many, are very real issues that shouldn't have made it out of development in the first place. And my point is, if you cannot look at the game in a broader scope, then your doomed from the start, as no game will every tickle all your funny bones so to speak. As a gamer, you have to give up the "It's all about me" mentality and hope most of the game fits you. While I do not, by any means, speak for anyone else, I have to say that I have played plenty of games that "tickle all my funny bones". As a Star Wars example, KoTOR I and II, as well as Battlefront come to mind. Constructive debates only happen on topics that are true issues. Let's says, game bugs or PVP. Thats something everyone has to deal with and is worth compiling and discussing. What the OP posted is mainly worthless banter at best. On the contrary, I think the OP made some very good points about bugs in Operations and some big issues in PvP. Plenty of other posters have done the same, before being buried by trolls, people defending the game with their own opinions, and topic de-railers. The bottom line is someone got there panties in a wad over something they didn't like and assumed the majority of other gamers felt the same. I say that's simply not true since we know you cannot go by whats posted on the forums as a majority of gamers. Cause the majority of SWTOR gamers don't post and they are playing and enjoying the game. I think it belittles what I read as a well-thought out post, despite being mostly opinions, to refer to it as "panties in a wad". And, if you look through some of the comments, you'll see many people unequivocally agreeing with the OP. While I agree that people will not pay for a service they are unhappy with, thinking the service will change to fit your personal taste when said service is for 1.7 million players who have there own personal wants is more than a stupid line of thinking. And I would agree with you in turn. Actually at one point on the WOW forums a blue made reference to this and just how few people actually posted on the forums given how negative and terrible those forums were. I bet it's no different here. Maybe, but you can't say for sure. When I played WoW, I saw many of the same individuals posting the same crap over and over. That is not the case here. And since I can't always play the game, for various reasons, but I can almost always access the forums, so I spend an inordinate amount of time here. They are part of the player base by default only as a paying subscriber. However, they are not good for the game nor the player base cause they can't stop thinking about them selves and what they want. Just like the OP. Out of all his ranting he has about 2 things worth discussing and the rest is worthless "ME ME ME" stuff. Thats not good for any game. That's true, but the loud, obnoxious complainers do get attention to issues. Someone silently suffering through Ilium, Warzone exploits, random disconnects, and other things is not doing their part to improve this game. I dare say most of them the same minority of people as well. Complainers rarely just yell to one person. They have to much self-entitlement to stop at just one place.Got to have more people looking at them. The only thing you really read about is bugs and PVP from other places and yet the game is rated hugely successful right now with the added blurb of when those 2 things gets worked out it will be an amazing game in all areas. I know plenty of people personally, as well as online, that have tried hard to love this game. I'm among them. But many people can't justify a monthly fee for a product that isn't personally enjoyable. And although I can't find the link, I saw a TORhead link the other day that showed the net change in Server populations. And they were decreasing, except for a few PvE servers. That caused me to take a step back and really think about this game. Combined with taking the weekend off from playing SWTOR, I just can't bring myself to play anymore. It's just not fun and quite a pain in the *** to play. A week ago I would have been fully on your side, but, as I stated above, my mind has changed. I can't justify the fee versus the amount of fun I have playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) How about an alternative theory: BioWare refuses to learn from previous MMOs, and insists on re-inventing the wheel over and over again for basic mechanics, UIs, engine choices, etc. That's the theory that the great "MMO community" is already proposing, as exemplified in the OP. I'm the one who's proposing an alternative theory The famous and wonderful "MMO community" will never be happy with any MMO, ever. Which happens to make the opinion of the oh-so-great "MMO community" utterly worthless and off the mark for this game, because most of the people who are going to be playing it won't have known about the previous "wheels" that have already been "invented". Just watch what happens to Tera after a few months. Even the great GW2 will not pass entirely unscathed, although I think it will probably quieten the "MMO community" down for at least a couple of months. And pity poor TSW. The almighty "MMO community" has far too high an opinion of itself and its importance, even in the MMO world, far less the wider gaming community, from which most of SWTOR's players is likely to be drawn. Here's the truth: the already established "MMO community" and its pompous opinions has been relevant to some previous games that have attempted to muscle in on WoW, but it is irrelevant to SWTOR, which is not trying to muscle in on WoW. And besides, the only "MMO community" that has any real teeth is EVE Online's, and that only for EVE Online itself, and because of its nature as a true (and great) sandbox. Edited February 20, 2012 by gurugeorge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apatiaa Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I couldn't agree more about the game engine, this is the worst performing mmo I have ever played with the longest loading times ever. I have an i5 overclocked to 4.6ghz with 8gb memory and not the latest gtx 460 and the game runs so poorly with 10-20+ ppl on the screen at the same time. All other mmo I have played incl Tera just fly on my rig. Sad but true, it's going to be another few more weeks or couple of months at most when masses will leave the game. Not to mention any new mmo like Tera in May or GW2 and people will not hesitate to switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganini Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you look at the massive list of things removed since beta you'll see that more often than not, the culprit is engine limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzurps Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) There are a myriad of issues with the engine. Edited February 20, 2012 by Sizzurps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisAbyssus Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Well OP wrote very nice and cleasr post to give feedback what he thinks is important , lot of ppl obviously agree with him , as well as me. So why do you think your post is so important that we have to read it and endure your foolishness ? Just check the numbers how much went the population on servers down.I down want to make any conclusion from those numbers but that is truth.Ppl are not playing as much as they used to. Until 1.2 comes out. Then they come back. And it fades until 1.3 Then they come back. And it fades to 1.4 Then they come back. And more content/expansions/fixes to their game continue to be made, and more people continue to come back. There's no real reason to sit there and make such a SHALLOW statement as "Well people don't play as much as they used to." How on earth is that an honest statement? The game has been out since December. Release hype is going down. Of course people are playing less than they used to. It's what happens when the glitter wares off. Doesn't mean jack pertaining to this argument though. Edited February 20, 2012 by LucisAbyssus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meldwyn Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I, for one, am playing a lot less... as in zero! Boredom set in, so taking a break, or until sub expires... but I am not one to come back if I leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethal_ghost Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This was highlighted to me even more, when I tried the Tera beta this weekend. At time of logon, I was surrounded by literally hundreds of people. There was zero slowdown. Graphics card barely increased in volume or temperature. Clearly, the Unreal engine runs ridiculously well. This is borne out by even Mass Effect 2 (and 3) which run flawlessly on this PC and my last. The irony is the general chat channel on Tera was inundated with people amazed how much better it ran on their systems than TOR does. Go figure. TERA does seem to handle more people without problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stem Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I'll agree with your gripe on the engine, but everything else is just standard MMO stuff. (FYI….. my 8 year old computer with a 256mb graphics card plays this game fine) PvP….. there’s no balance in any class based MMO for PvP. As for Warzones being like WoW, there’s little other objective based war games besides what they’ve created. Believe it or not, capture the flag is a game older than WoW….. I’ve heard some people even play it in RL. I’ll give you one more thing……. ‘Summoning stones’ or what would make more sense in TOR ‘shuttle terminals’, would be a nice touch. Edited February 20, 2012 by stem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That's true, but the loud, obnoxious complainers do get attention to issues. Someone silently suffering through Ilium, Warzone exploits, random disconnects, and other things is not doing their part to improve this game. So you think ranting in the forum is more effective than an in game bug report to let Devs know there is an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meldwyn Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So you think ranting in the forum is more effective than an in game bug report to let Devs know there is an issue? If all you get is a robo answer about it being looking in to and then summarily closing your ticket without so much as a conversation... maybe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditched Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Something seriously needs to be done about the FPS issues in this game. WZs are unplayable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalDreamz Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So you think ranting in the forum is more effective than an in game bug report to let Devs know there is an issue? The developers have received SO many reports on bugs, issues, concerns and they all go unnoticed. Everything many of us brought up on Beta are still there, everything we said should be in an mmo isn't. Heck they can't even get high res textures STILL working properly. They received plenty of feedback, they chose to act on none of it. They know they're title can't compete with MoP, Tera, GW2 or even stand on it's own so they're getting the free to play model working and will implement it probably during the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Ah! OK. So GW2 will run better on its engine because it's in beta...that's your excuse? I shouldn't have to explain it to you.. I have been in many betas and most that i have been in just wasnt about getting pre orders and part of the hype machine like TOR was. Most Beta tests are simply to optimize performance and loads, finding memory leaks and hardware optimization. The beta for TOR was just a hype machine and pretty much 90% of everything complained was ignored. I was in Rift closed beta, it had some real performance issues but before launch majority of them had been fixed. So my point is that GW2 still has time to work things out while TOR on the other hand the doomsday clock is ticking as people will get tired of paying for beta. Im sure its safe to say that the GW2 info was much larger scale PVP than what is available in TOR. In your frame of thought i guess EVE has performance issues as well cause when 3,000 people are in one system the lag makes it unplayable. You do not know how many people took part in that test. I would guess more than 15 tbh. Edited February 20, 2012 by Razot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) If all you get is a robo answer about it being looking in to and then summarily closing your ticket without so much as a conversation... maybe! A closed ticket doesn't mean the right departments were not info'd about the issue. For instance, if you report a bugged chest that can't be opened, CS will close the ticket because they can't fix it but forward the report to the right department to be fixed. That has to be faster than coming here and posting - "OMG! OMG! this game is the suxxors. The can't even make chests that open. Stupid devs picked a crappy engine." Edited February 20, 2012 by Drewser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristoffbrujah Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can't for the life of me understand why Bioware spent $200m on this and didn't go for the premium, proven engine. It's like building a $10m F1 car and spending $200 at the local Les Schwab for discount tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 COD doesn't expect a monthly fee. $15 a month is pennies. So, what was your point again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnu Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 $15 a month is pennies. So, what was your point again? Lol, that's a great arguement for one subscription. It's a very poor arguement when it's tens of thousands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 $15 a month is pennies. So, what was your point again? No kidding. Even at just 2 hours a week you paying less than $2 per hour of entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumfizz Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It's infuriating. For example, on one occassion I offered to help a guildie with a quest on Voss. I was on Belsavis. "I'll be right there." Ha! Fleet pass on cooldown, and quick travel. So I had to mount up, ride to a taxi point. Fly back to the spaceport. Get on a shuttle. Go through the space station. Go through my hangar. Load my ship. Go to the map. Pick my location. Walk out the ship. Load Voss. Walk through the station. Drive to the taxi point. Fly to the distant zone. Then mount up, and ride for another 5 minutes to the other side. All in all, must have took me near 20 minutes to get there. It really is ridiculous. I hate to constantly cite WoW, but I will again. It was tedium like this that made them introduce flying mounts, portals, and gathering stones. This is ridiculous. They need to just remove the character ships from the game altogether. Make each planet have a shuttport, you go there and shuttle to the planet of your choice. Aside from the ridiculous load times for the planets themselves, at least you wouldn't have to run through a freaking maze every time just to get somewhere. Ships are pointless and useless in this game. There are no space battles so just nuke that aspect. Instead of getting a ship at level 14 or whatever just have whoever would normally give you a ship tel you you've earned a shuttle pass and be done with it. Gawd. I pretty much just stay on the fleet anymore and do WZs because I can't be bothered to go through that nightmare of visiting other planets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Lol, that's a great arguement for one subscription. It's a very poor arguement when it's tens of thousands What? I pay pennies a day to play this game. I also have a job that affords me disposable income. He claimed that it was the OP's right to post and complain about this game because he pays $15 a month where they do not pay to play COD. If you are complaining about having to pay $15 a month for something, maybe you should have your economic situation re-evaluted. $15 a month is pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnu Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 What? I pay pennies a day to play this game. I also have a job that affords me disposable income. He claimed that it was the OP's right to post and complain about this game because he pays $15 a month where they do not pay to play COD. If you are complaining about having to pay $15 a month for something, maybe you should have your economic situation re-evaluted. $15 a month is pennies. You obviously don't think big picture. It's ok, I'm aware the game doesn't revolve around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisAbyssus Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I hate travelling too. That's why I play MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can't for the life of me understand why Bioware spent $200m on this and didn't go for the premium, proven engine. If you're talking about Unreal MMO engine, that's by no means a "proven" engine. Two MMOs that I've played that have used it have had serious, game-breaking problems: Vanguard and Mortal Online. In Vanguard's case, the problems actually strangled at birth what was (and remains) in fact one of the best MMOs ever made in terms of design (single open world part sandbox part themepark). And as for using the Unreal MMO engine "off the shelf", that's precisely what's caused problems for Starvault with Mortal Online, another game with huge potential (a pure sandbox a la UO). It works pretty well with DCUO, but even then there's still something a bit flakey about DCUO's combat responsiveness, quite a bit flakier than SWTOR's. Whether Unreal works well with Tera remains to be seen. I'm seeing good comments from people in beta so far, admittedly, but I suspect you'll see the usual complaints once the game goes live. As I understand it, while of course the rendering side of Unreal is fine, the network layer bolted on for MMO use is below par, and it takes a lot of work (probably as much, if not more, than it took to make Hero suitable for BW's use) to make it viable, or even strip it out and put one's own in. SoE had the resources/know how to do it for DCUO, but the makers of Vanguard obviously didn't, and the makers of Mortal Online obviously didn't. So yeah, let's can the Unreal nonsense, it's by no means the second coming of MMO game engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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