Heres the TRUTH about operatives(video)

[Bushranger]

 

This is to counter the whinner that say operatives at 50 are doing 5k damage to geared players while in truth, we can barely do 3k damage and that is only by using trinkets.... our damage is weak and barely takes out someones half health even if they crit...

 

 

...here we go again w/ this bad... Don't feed the troll...

[BobaFurz]

When I watch videos about group pvp in swtor and compare it to WoW or most other major mmoorpgs there is one thing which pops up:

 

Ranged classes in this game are very static.

 

They are that powerfull in close combat that they just stand still and try to outdps you, they tank your dmg and they dont need to kite you.

 

Some of them have similar dps or even more (since armor plays a role aswell) than melee classes. They have a high surviveability in close combat and are not that easy to take down. In this time all the other players around, within the 30m range, are just pressing one button and focusing the melee threat and they die that fast since they have often lower surviveability than a light armor class.

 

It is just too easy for ranged classes in group pvp.

 

Another point is the map design of the battlegrounds, maps are too cramped so every class with ranged abilities can target quickly anything within their 30m range.

Edited February 17, 2012 by BobaFurz

[SuperSair]

Gap closer would be a very good idea.

 

There is a reason why all Rogues in WoW had sprint, and Sub rogues had Shadowstep.

 

A ability similar to Hold the Line for Tactics Troopers would be a good step. Or even a talent that made that shield thing give em a speed boost and snare immunity.

Edited February 17, 2012 by SuperSair

[Masahiko]

When I watch videos about group pvp in swtor and compare it to WoW or most other major mmoorpgs there is one thing which pops up:

 

Ranged classes in this game are very static.

 

They are that powerfull in close combat that they just stand still and try to outdps you, they tank your dmg and they dont need to kite you.

 

Some of them have similar dps or even more (since armor plays a role aswell) than melee classes. They have a high surviveability in close combat and are not that easy to take down. In this time all the other players around, within the 30m range, are just pressing one button and focusing the melee threat and they die that fast since they have often lower surviveability than a light armor class.

 

It is just too easy for ranged classes in group pvp.

 

You have to think of it like this. Once resolve is full there is NO reason not to stand toe-to-toe with someone because they cant stop you beside 4sec interrupt. It takes alot of effot to line up your CC to effectively shutdown a caster, including but not limited to: Knowing what spells to stop, know which spell to take, knowing which cc chains into another for best outcomes before resolve, NOT using interrupt before resolve is maxed, countering knockbacks, counter stuns, counter def CDs.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Masahiko

[BobaFurz]

You have to think of it like this. Once resolve is full there is NO reason not to stand toe-to-toe with someone because they cant stop you beside 4sec interrupt. It takes alot of effot to line up your CC to effectively shutdown a caster, including but not limited to: Knowing what spells to stop, know which spell to take, knowing which cc chains into another for best outcomes before resolve, NOT using interrupt before resolve is maxed, countering knockbacks, counter stuns, counter def CDs.

 

If you watch the video you see that cc of ranged classes dont even fill up the resolve bar, two knockbacks and the bar is just at 60%. Just stand in a root and watch how your resolve bars slowly decrease again.

 

The effort to shutdown and to kill ranged classes are not that easy (not talking about op only), the time you need is an advantage of the ranged classes in cramped tiny battleground where most classes just press a button within their 30m range.

 

Ranged classes are that powerfull that they just tank you as melee, you need to interrupt them to succeed if you play a melee class (i.e. marauder). Melees in generall have it not easy in group pvp but in this game it gets out of hand.

Edited February 17, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Khadroth]

I disagree with premise of your post. To say an Ops is ok because some weird spec is working except that a whole tree is sub par and even you consider a joke when attacking you is something far from fine.

 

I disagree with the premise of your post. Because you just described Sage/Sorc's in a nutshell.

 

Weird Spec is working = Hybrid

Whole Tree Sub Par = TK

[Masahiko]

If you watch the video you see that cc of ranged classes dont even fill up the resolve bar, two knockbacks and the bar is just at 60%.

 

The effort to shutdown and to kill ranged classes are not that easy (not talking about op only), the time you need is an advantage of the ranged classes in cramped tiny battleground where most classes just press a button within their 30m range.

 

Ranged classes are that powerfull that they just tank you as melee, you need to interrupt them to succeed if you play a melee class (i.e. marauder). Melees in generall have it not easy in group pvp but in this game it gets out of hand.

 

Turst me i know how bad it is to be melee. This game may have the most one sided comparison from melee to ranged ive seen since standoffs at keeps in DAoC. With all the advantages given to ranged classes (high ground, knock backs, and range obviously) its makes it very tricky to pull off a kill especially if they have all 3 working in their favor like on hutball.

[kalexkhan]

A lot of good pvp centric games are starting to realize stealth is just a horrible mechanic to try and balance.

 

Stealthed based mechanics are too often overpowered in the most desirable and coordinated circumstances, and causes the classes in question to just be broken otherwise. Developers try to bring them in line based off the circumstances of question and it just gimps them when not in these ideal scenarios.

 

While it is true, that by nature "everything" is op when in the perfect conditions/coordination, stealth specifically empowers that type of gameplay MORE for all those who utilize it based off it's apparent seek and destroy mechanics. It's far to easy to find and leverage the conditions I mean. Additionally, the user base tends to be more inclined, and vocal about it's discrepancies because nobody likes to NOT see their demise coming. It's psychologically not very "gamey" in people's minds, so they rarely appreciate the setup time etc. Of the stalker.

 

Anyway....

 

Ops/scoundrels are now challenged by these same predicaments in this game as well. Good luck bioware pvp team, we are all counting on you to solve this old design problem! Hahaha aaa.

Edited February 17, 2012 by kalexkhan

[Masahiko]

I disagree with the premise of your post. Because you just described Sage/Sorc's in a nutshell.

 

Weird Spec is working = Hybrid

Whole Tree Sub Par = TK

 

As i said play how you want but when the whole tree isnt AS viable as a hybrid there's something wrong with the balance. Specilization is becoming good at that one thing. Now the downside is you dont have as many tools to work with. Hybrids by the very nature shouldnt be the top but should be able to compete because they have more tools to play with.

 

Bioware created a situation (and we've seen this in wow) where some trees are junk because of nerfs or under-performing 31 talents. As a player im all for choices, as an arm chair dev i would like to see under-performing trees improved.

[Jagerinho]

check the OP's posting history, its funny.

[Masahiko]

A lot of good pvp centric games are starting to realize stealth is just a horrible mechanic to try and balance.

 

Stealthed based mechanics are too often overpowered in the most desirable and coordinated circumstances, and causes the classes in question to just be broken otherwise. Developers try to bring them in line based off the circumstances of question and it just gimps them when not in these ideal scenarios.

 

While it is true, that by nature "everything" is op when in the perfect conditions/coordination, stealth specifically empowers that type of gameplay MORE for all those who utilize it based off it's apparent seek and destroy mechanics. It's far to easy to find and leverage the conditions I mean. Additionally, the user base tends to be more inclined, and vocal about it's discrepancies because nobody likes to NOT see their demise coming. It's psychologically not very "gamey" in people's minds, so they rarely appreciate the setup time etc. Of the stalker.

 

Anyway....

 

Ops/scoundrels are now challenged by these same predicaments in this game as well. Good luck bioware pvp team, we are all counting on you to solve this old design problem! Hahaha aaa.

 

I dont think perma stealth works in theme park games because of the lack of need for it. There isnt a reason to have stealth other than to deceive players about the reinforcements of a node or bypass locations to attempt an easier cap. At the same time in a much larger game world like DAoC (not the best stealth example but bear with me). Stealth was helpful at getting the movements of the enemy groups.

 

In planetside you could cap and hack after dropping in on a tower. Plant bombs and other engy tools.

 

So stealth has its places. Is that place here in SWTOR; i guess time will tell but at the moment eh not really.

[CEAF]

PLEASE stop posting screenshots of scoreboards as evidence of anything. They prove NOTHING as there is no context.

 

A simple example; If left unmolested an Op/Smug healer can put out 1000000 healing in Voidstar. This does NOT tell you anything about the spec (which in the Op/Smug healer case is worst in game by a lot) it only tells you that he was free casting for 15 minutes straight. The same applies to DPS.

[DestyOwn]

Maybe the operative isnt geared at all... who knows?

[Labradoraki]

Maybe the operative isnt geared at all... who knows?

 

lol ye try to deny it as much as you want... operatives are up

[Labradoraki]

lol ye try to deny it as much as you want... operatives are up

pumb cuz everyone must see the ultimate truth about operatives and stop leaving in the delusions of operatives doing 50% hp damage at the knockback...

[Masahiko]

 

lol ye try to deny it as much as you want... operatives are up

 

 

pumb cuz everyone must see the ultimate truth about operatives and stop leaving in the delusions of operatives doing 50% hp damage at the knockback...

 

Im just amused that you quoted yourself.

[Labradoraki]

Im just amused that you quoted yourself.

 

well does it matter who you quote when you pumb??? plus quote button is faster to press than post reply

[Bottomfeeder]

What I see in this thread is a bunch of whiners that want the good old days of effortless kills back. You had it easy...now you have to work for your kills like the rest of the melee based chars. ****.

[Melacon]

Guess you should have picked the superior AC and went sniper! Then I'm sure you'd have no complaints, right?

[BobaFurz]

What I see in this thread is a bunch of whiners that want the good old days of effortless kills back. You had it easy...now you have to work for your kills like the rest of the melee based chars. ****.

 

It is not about the "good ol days". Did you watch the video at least ? Even the video is mainly about an operative he comments on things other classes have issues with aswell.

Edited February 17, 2012 by BobaFurz

[astrolite]

The only operatives pulling the class off now are geared and have above average skills. You hand them another class (maybe except snipers, they are subpar too) and they will outperform their operative by a good margin.

 

So the precedent to be set is to:

 

1. Buff operatives

2. Nerf other classes

3. Do nothing and let every operative reroll or quit

 

I'm thinking balancing by buffing is always a better option than nerfing, but we already have a precedent for nerfs. Option 3 simply isn't healthy for the game. Do you really want to continue warzones that consist of 75% inquis/merc with the odd tank for guard? Rated warzones will consist of one or two makeups and become homogenized without offering variety.

 

I know lots of operatives who have already leveled or are leveling a Sorc or Merc. Seeing as how it is relatively easy to gear up, they could just drop their main completely.

 

Yup... let's leave the subpar classes continue to be subpar and see what that does for the game.

[Ich_Bin]

The only operatives pulling the class off now are geared and have above average skills. You hand them another class (maybe except snipers, they are subpar too) and they will outperform their operative by a good margin.

 

So the precedent to be set is to:

 

1. Buff operatives

2. Nerf other classes

3. Do nothing and let every operative reroll or quit

 

I'm thinking balancing by buffing is always a better option than nerfing, but we already have a precedent for nerfs. Option 3 simply isn't healthy for the game. Do you really want to continue warzones that consist of 75% inquis/merc with the odd tank for guard? Rated warzones will consist of one or two makeups and become homogenized without offering variety.

 

I know lots of operatives who have already leveled or are leveling a Sorc or Merc. Seeing as how it is relatively easy to gear up, they could just drop their main completely.

 

Yup... let's leave the subpar classes continue to be subpar and see what that does for the game.

 

Very well said. Honestly, we should frame this comment and send it to Bioware. Maybe it would make them see reason.

[Labradoraki]

i agree nerfing to balance results in overpowered healer or heavy cc ranged kiting classes

 

 

buffing to balance results in very fast deaths to high dps classes unless they also buff defenses accordingly

[Sookster]

I disagree with the premise of your post. Because you just described Sage/Sorc's in a nutshell.

 

Weird Spec is working = Hybrid

Whole Tree Sub Par = TK

 

This is true for many classes, there's the Carolina Parakeet and Iron Fist for VG/PT, there's the lightning/madness sorc and tele/balance for sage, etcetc. Blizzard eliminated hybrids for most classes in WoW years ago, too early to tell if Bioware actually cares about these issues.

[DariuszPol]

I noticed something funny playing Operative. As some of you maybe know, I have lvl 41 operative with lvl 41 valor ( centurion title :-D ) called "Dagar" on "Tassaa Bareesh".

He have PVP armor and weapon from lvl 40 at current state.

Before nerf it was dam good class to play. Easy to kill bur hard to find and could pack a punch. And there was nothing I could not kill if I catch someone off guard (from stealth).

 

After nerf

~ it's stupid to go against skilled Tanks since it's take forever to kill them

~ it's useless to go against healers since I don't have enough punch to take them down fast. They always manage to get help.

 

So instead of whining I focused on light and medium armored targets. So everything except Tanks, Troopers, Bounty Hunters and Healers. That leave mostly DPS specs.

 

On lvl 40 I can put them down to 50-60% in 1,5s. Critics around 4k are very often just from initial hit (hidden strike + acid blade). Hits that follow do less damage but still nice one. BUT acid blade damage them even more. After initial attack when they are able to attack me - I use corrosive dart. This one is upgraded from Lethality. It last 18s and can tick twice sometimes. And in that time I attack even more.

 

And I think that it's quite good because around lvl 40 people have from 11k to 16k HP.

 

Troopers and Bounty Hunters go down too so that's not a problem. I can outdamage healers but it's just take too long. In that time when I fight one stupid healer I can take down 2 other targets.

So I only engage healers to make them busy. So rest of the team can put down his friends and help me out or prevent others from helping healer.

 

So it's not so bad with that nerf BEFORE lvl 50. I have no idea right now how my class will preform at lvl 50 but I hope I can still at least be able to continue my job. I saved enough comms for 5 champion bags. And I already have bag nr 6 in my storage. So my lvl 50 I should start with some champion and centurion gear on me. And valor lvl 50 so I can in few days start gathering Battlemaster Gear.

 

 

PS: I found something funny. Under "T" button I have skill that block channeled attack for 4 seconds. I call it - "Noob detector". If I see Trooper or Bounty Hunter that spam on me Gravity Gun or Tracer Missiles - i use my "Noob detector". If they stop fighting for 4 seconds - they are noobs :-D

Also I was asking some people in guild or other operatives WHY loot of them don't use it to block healers or spammers. They say it last too short and it's waste of time to use it. Well - learn people one thing - 4s is eternity in PVP. I use this skill all the time and loot of people are very confused amd before they realize what happen, why healing or something don't work - I send them to whatever god they wish.

Edited February 20, 2012 by DariuszPol