Logical fallacy of punishing WZ quitters - It will hurt more than help

[raelimar]

Here's the thing. Yes, "quitters" will be failing up a warzone...and that's unfortunate. HOWEVER.

 

1. The other people in that warzone aren't completely innocent. They created the circumstances that caused other players to want to quit.

 

2. The "innocent" people in this situation are the people that zone into the middle of a losing warzone. If people don't/can't quit, then those people don't get punished because of quitters. This fix isn't in place to protect the baddies who are getting farmed because of their own lack of skill, it's in place to protect people from being thrown into a losing situation through no fault of their own.

Edited February 17, 2012 by raelimar

[savionen]

That's pvp on a low pop faction imbalance server

Hopefully x server wz will address this and well see full teams fr the start

And yes 4v8 is an auto loss but that doesn't justify quiting

 

I'm not on a low population server. It's above average, actually. Almost every server is 2:1 or 3:1 Empire:Republic. That means that somebody is still going to end up with half a team. Especially since it doesn't seem to wait for 8 people it's possible multiple games are 8vs5 at once.

 

I've left 8vs5 games before and jumped into a fresh game that was now 8vs8. It made sense to leave the 8vs5 because of this. Why is it even queue'ing people for a new one when my warzone isn't even filled out yet?

 

 

Maybe if they actually made some effort to fix faction balance by offering incentives, and fixed some of the major warzone bugs....

Edited February 17, 2012 by savionen

[Northwynde]

And so you want these people forced into playing on a team with you and you think it's going to be to your benefit?

 

It may not be of benefit to the people on that team, but to the community on a whole it will be. Instead of jumping from match to match, where he has the ability to possibly make several matches less enjoyable for many more people, he can only make his one match less enjoyable.

[tsupra]

tl:dr There is no hope!just move along

[DrIzzt-DoUrden]

Back when I was leveling up I noticed a lot of players that would queue up for a warzone / go hide / go afk / reap the benefits (exp/comms/valor/credits) and they don't even have to re-queue because that box is checked by default. I've reported almost a dozen of these cases to Bioware and now that I'm rolling an alt I can't help but notice more and more of them.

 

These idiots are everywhere and I really shouldn't call them idiots because they're just taking advantage of a flawed system. Bioware has created this Warzone design so that once u get to level 10 you almost literally could get to level 50 and never actually fight anybody. Bot farming

 

What you're suggesting is that if Bioware implements a penalty for players who quit Warzones ... people won't quit but they will intentionally sabotage their team. This already happens and those people hopefully get reported. And even if they do get reported is anything ever done about it? does Bioware roll them back? suspend them? ban them? we'll never know.

 

Something has to be done

 

Bioware needs to do a better job of responding and disciplining players who abuse the Warzone system. Whether its sabotaging their team / going afk / quitting / all of it.

[Anduiin]

Im probably much worse than a quitter, I run the game in windowed mode when i pvp so that when a game turns into scrubage, I just find a nice corner or box and afk, minimize and browse the internet, click back after 4 min, move. I hate doing this but the exp and valor is too much to give up to maybe have the same thing happen 5 min later. Better to take that 5 min and wait, taking 1 player out and giving the other team an even greater advantage to clean it up quickly.

 

Im the guy that heals for at least 200k a game in the 10-49 bracket but then afks the games where keeping people alive is just a fruitless endeavor.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Anduiin

[EternalFinality]

Just.... Lol!

 

Spirit of good competition and worthy challenge? That's not why people leave. They leave because of the LACK of said spirit or worthy challenge. Good competition and worthy challenge are fun.

 

This is an absolute lie. You know why?

 

THEY'LL NEVER LEAVE WHEN THEY'RE WINNING.

 

IN football, the teams are competitive. If the NFL played against a high school team, you might have people walk off. If the 49ers had only 6 players on offence against 11 Saints on defence, they might walk off.

 

The Indianapolis Colts were not competitive in the slightest last year. Did any of their team members walk off the field the first time an opposing team scored a touchdown? Did the coach say "I can't coach all these bads, I'm out" and wander off to the locker room?

 

Good idea. Except, I go alt tab to read ESPN. Tab back every minute or so to hit a key, then go back to reading ESPN. What now?

 

Your time is wasted and you are annoyed. This is exactly how it should be. Eventually you will decide the annoyance is too much and stop queueing entirely. Then everyone else wins and you are removed from the system, cut out like the cancer you are.

 

I can't wait.

[Faat]

Its good you should stop right there. You have a hard time drawing relevance from the original quote.

 

Because it was effective at preventing afkers and leavers in warzones?

 

I mean, that's the goal, right?

 

There is no relevance between the fat that the system they implemented (quitter debuff, afk detection in Scenarios) in WAR and the success of the game. For a fact, they implemented those things AFTER they lost 95% of the initial subs. I know people afk in SCs and / or leaving was an issue that they fixed TOO LATE.

[Manigma]

This is an absolute lie. You know why?

The Indianapolis Colts were not competitive in the slightest last year. Did any of their team members walk off the field the first time an opposing team scored a touchdown? Did the coach say "I can't coach all these bads, I'm out" and wander off to the locker room?

The Indianapolis Colts are a premade - you have much less reason to leave when at least your team is working together.

[LuthirFontaine]

The Indianapolis Colts are a premade - you have much less reason to leave when at least your team is working together.

 

did you see there year....i would argue that they were not working together...

[Faat]

More empty threats. "The game will die without the scumbag leaver douches!"

 

No. YOU are what kills games. Remove the cancerous players and the game improves.

 

QFT

 

Implement a quitter debuff already so that bunch of FFSSSS get to play their carebear-style of play in another game.

 

Real PvP games record those actions and get you stats of matches that everyone can see, and you could then gauge the quallity of the player. Would make a lot of people think twice about leaving if it would be recorded in your character history.

 

Then you could unlock titles such as 'Sore loser' 'Crybaby quitter' 'Douchebag residue'

[xTyphoidx]

What about the title for not wanting to be the 7th guy against 12? How about a title for "huttball can go to hell" ?

[EternalFinality]

QFT

 

Implement a quitter debuff already so that bunch of FFSSSS get to play their carebear-style of play in another game.

 

Real PvP games record those actions and get you stats of matches that everyone can see, and you could then gauge the quallity of the player. Would make a lot of people think twice about leaving if it would be recorded in your character history.

 

Then you could unlock titles such as 'Sore loser' 'Crybaby quitter' 'Douchebag residue'

 

"Rage Quit" - Leave a warzone within 5 seconds of being killed.

 

"Pre-morons" - Lose to a group of solo queuers as a premade.

Edited February 17, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Tierce]

Because its annoying to the rest of the team

Seeing someone leave join leave join wz there none to replace him

See the abort sequence start stop start stop all because this 1 bratt

Can't cooperate on a team game

 

So we're back to wanting to spank people because they are brats then. Just making sure we all know the rational behind wanting these penalties. FYI, it's not going to achieve your desired end result of making them "cooperate".

[maradigamer]

I was never rabidly against nor obviously rabidly in support of a deserter debuff. I just think it's such an issue due to underlying issues. I also think that implementing a quitter debuff without addressing the underlying issues will make games less enjoyable for everyone.

 

First, enemy teams, whether premade or pug, will have no incentive now to not completely dominate an inferior team for the duration of matches. It will be much more difficult for inferior teams to attain even kill medals.

 

 

Second, we will have far more afkers and botters and any vote kick mechanic will be heavily abused by people who don't like the look of that level 12 or that fresh 50.

 

Third, this entire issue has created bad feeling in the community (or at least the percentage that visits the forum). Every thread is a flame fest now. Once a deserter debuff is implemented, a lot of people on the 'losing' side of this argument are going to deliberately lower their quality of play and participation in some warzones even if they don't afk. I know I will consider it sweet victory when I stay an entire match where my team is getting horribly farmed and my carcass fails to provide the enemy a single medal. Petty? Absolutely. But this entire issue is chock full of petty.

 

However, good changes could be in the works, too. Changes that could bury this issue once and for all, causing the flamers and trolls to move on. Cross server warzones. Rated matches. Perhaps better matchmaking. So all is far from lost. In the meantime, I really wish some people on this forum would take a logic and debate class before posting again.

 

I might need a refresher course some days myself.

[Tierce]

I dont want those type of players in my warfront anyway. They were going to suck and farm medals. Penalise more if it keeps them out!

 

If you don't want them in your warzone, then why do you want to add a penalty? A Penalty is only going to keep them in, not out. Do you even understand the how penalties work?

[JustAnotherVoice]

I was never rabidly against nor obviously rabidly in support of a deserter debuff. I just think it's such an issue due to underlying issues. I also think that implementing a quitter debuff without addressing the underlying issues will make games less enjoyable for everyone.

 

QFT

 

The more I read threads on this topic, the more I realise how myopic this community actually is.

 

Most only seem to want to treat the symptoms, rather than the cause. And for every one reasonable person who gives a valid argument for treating the symptom first, there are half a dozen "all you quitters/leavers should die" types.

 

Bioware, please fix your PvP system first, to encourage people to PvP, rather than drive away those who are fed up with bugs/general non-competitiveness from one of the few things to do at 50. Once you have a stable, fair and enjoyable PvP setup, then worry about punishing habitual leavers/quitters.

[richardya]

If you don't want them in your warzone, then why do you want to add a penalty? A Penalty is only going to keep them in, not out. Do you even understand the how penalties work?

 

They will end up winning a % closer to 50%. When they were permitted to quit losing matches they won 100%.

This will be too much for them and the quitters will zone in less.

 

This is the intended result. I don't want to punish them, I am not their mother. I want my games to stop being ruined because I went up or down 2-0. They ruin those games.

Edited February 17, 2012 by richardya

[Tierce]

Remember that time when people left warzones and the players who don;t leave get stuck in a now losing warzone and the ones who left get into a new queue with the possibility of getting carried by the enemy teams lack of gear. Let's not punish leavers because... I'm sorry why exactly? Punishing leavers might hurt the people who are stuck with the faggles in said warzone, but it WONT punish people who take their place. So all in all, it hurts fewer people.

 

TL;DR warzone leaver is wah wah and no one has respect for him so he uses wall of text.

 

Currently, everyone can leave the warzone, nobody is stuck in a losing warzone. Further, whether or not somebody leaves doesn't change the fact that a losing warzone is a losing warzone. Everybody has equal ability to leave and requeue, it's called freedom, what a concept!

 

Adding a penalty most definitely punishes the players who take the place of those who leave because now those players are not able to leave without being punished. So now if someone leaves a warzone for whatever reason (might have just been a crash) and you get queued into their losing warzone, you have to stay in it or else take a penalty. You no longer have total freedom to escape getting shafted into this situation.

[Tierce]

It may not be of benefit to the people on that team, but to the community on a whole it will be. Instead of jumping from match to match, where he has the ability to possibly make several matches less enjoyable for many more people, he can only make his one match less enjoyable.

 

I'm still not following how a bad player leaving anyone's match makes it less enjoyable.

[DrCereal]

I agree with the OP.

 

It all comes down to forcing people to do something they don't want to do. Anyone who is / has been a boss, knows how hard it is to get people to do a good job when they don't want to do said job... even if you're paying them.

 

Now, in a game? Good luck. If someone doesn't want to be in that warzone, the best thing for EVERYONE involved is letting that person leave. Forcing them to stay helps no one.

 

Disclaimer: Yes, I leave warzones. The number one reason I leave though? When I enter a warzone already in progress, on the losing side. Do I nerdrage and beg Bioware to change the game so this doesn't happen to me, until I get my way? No. I just leave the warzone and move on. Not much skin off my back, really. Now. When penalties get introduced, I'm going to be quite upset if I enter a WZ in progress, and I have to either eat the WZ, or eat a debuff.

 

This is one instance of Bioware listening to it's players, and doing the WRONG THING.

 

Bioware: No, you shouldn't (always) listen to your players. Your players don't get paid to design good games. You do. It's YOUR job to know how to balance this game. Most people on these forums are 12, or with a 12 y/o mentality. All they know is that people leave WZ and that makes them angry. They can't think ahead to the consequences of changes. And they shouldn't have to, that's YOUR JOB. Remember what S. Jobs said about focus groups.

[Eyevan]

Vote kick with a double time penalty will fix this.

 

Penalizing deserters has been implemented before and it has worked great. And so has vote kicking.

 

People will start to call out AFK'ers or people not trying. Players start to police themselves pretty much. Deserters/AFK'ers will have a rep for doing so and I've even seen when they get vote kicked even before a match starts because their rep is so bad.

 

People who don't like this idea are people who have experienced this before when they try to leave WZs or afk. They don't like it because it works and they will no longer be able to continue doing it.

[savionen]

Vote kick with a double time penalty will fix this.

 

Penalizing deserters has been implemented before and it has worked great. And so has vote kicking.

 

People will start to call out AFK'ers or people not trying. Players start to police themselves pretty much. Deserters/AFK'ers will have a rep for doing so and I've even seen when they get vote kicked even before a match starts because their rep is so bad.

 

People who don't like this idea are people who have experienced this before when they try to leave WZs or afk. They don't like it because it works and they will no longer be able to continue doing it.

 

What game has this worked in? The system was terrible in WoW. It was abused more than used for its intended purpose. Anyone that was actually afking/playing terribly was impossible to kick.

[maradigamer]

Vote kick with a double time penalty will fix this.

 

Penalizing deserters has been implemented before and it has worked great. And so has vote kicking.

 

People will start to call out AFK'ers or people not trying. Players start to police themselves pretty much. Deserters/AFK'ers will have a rep for doing so and I've even seen when they get vote kicked even before a match starts because their rep is so bad.

 

People who don't like this idea are people who have experienced this before when they try to leave WZs or afk. They don't like it because it works and they will no longer be able to continue doing it.

 

I'll take Rift as the best example of why these measures fail. Rift has a deserter debuff and a votekick. Here is what happened.

 

Entire teams danced at the spawn, refusing to come down and fight and refusing to kick each other, because the matchmaking was so terrible that full premades easily queued against full pugs (something that was never supposed to happen).

 

Meanwhile, the forum lit up with complaints by non-healing clerics, the under-geared, and the under-leveled, all of whom were getting kicked by their teammates.

 

Now Rift has sorted out the premade sync queuing with a mercenary system that prevents full premades from exploiting their way into the pug games. Two things have happened, according to forum goers. First, premade games that never popped before are popping now (Bioware needs to take a closer look at this outcome, since they plan to implement rated warzones in the future). Second, except for a few mercs who are disgruntled for roleplay reasons or because they can no longer sync queue, players are much happier, games are often much closer, and participation is much higher. Queue times are also much shorter, and faction imbalance might no longer be as big of an issue (reports on this vary).

 

Conclusion: A vote kick and deserter penalties by themselves will not necessarily create better warzones for players.

Edited February 17, 2012 by maradigamer

[Zaodon]

Too many replies to quote here, so I'll just post a general reply.

 

 

1. Vote kicking

Never, ever going to happen. Let it go. Far too easy to grief people. I personally would have my entire guild vote-kick people to abuse the system to make my point.

 

2. Quitting

You DO NOT WANT someone to stay in your war zone if they don't want to actually be there anymore. They will either just badge-farm and ignore the objectives (bad) or just AFK or pretend to fight/afk (worse) or actively help the other team (worst) to make the match end sooner so they can re-queue. What you want, is a replacement ASAP who wants to be there. Therefore, quitting a war zone should provide a reward. Give the quitter +50% exp for 1 hour or something. It would encourage them to go PvE to take advantage of it, thus making sure you don't get stuck with them again. And it rewards them for "doing the right thing", aka quitting and letting a better player take their spot.