No You Hate Raids? I Sure Do!

[Marlaine]

Yes, raids are a joke. I despise them with all my being. I don't mind that some people enjoy them, and I even think that raids should be made for those people. But raids should not shut out the vast majority of the gaming population just because they refuse to partake in a choreographed tapdance that requires making your game-time into a part-time job that you have to clock in and clock out for.

[Marlaine]

Yeah...

 

 

 

See, this is false. It's not being stated as an opinion, you're saying "raids are like so."

 

They're not, which leads me to say "You haven't raided much or at all."

 

 

There are wrinkles of course, but he's right in that most encounters come down to tank and spank. You may have to move a bit here, move a bit there, interrupt this spell, jump for that spell; but in the end minus those little wrinkles it ultimately ends up primarily tank and spank.

[Crawfishies]

A lot of people love them and that's cool - to each his own. However, I HATE THEM. The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again.

 

That's it. There's no curve balls, no real "thinking" involved, it's mindless button clicking to get the awezome lootz..... so you can do it all again and get the awezomer lootz.... to do it again, to get even awesomerer lootz.... and on and on you go.

 

 

Funny, one can also say:

PVP: kill someone, kill someone, kill someone, get better pvp gear, kill someone, kill someone, get better pvp loot.

 

Have you ever thought about raiding isn't all about the "game"?

I'm assuming when you raid, you're on vent?

 

Did you have a beer while you play? did you ever tell jokes to your friends or joke about them on vent? Tell old war (i mean old raid) stories?.

 

Ever heard of the most unforgettable talked about raids like the Raid Nazi in Onyxia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04

 

Geez.

[JustTed]

There are wrinkles of course, but he's right in that most encounters come down to tank and spank. You may have to move a bit here, move a bit there, interrupt this spell, jump for that spell; but in the end minus those little wrinkles it ultimately ends up primarily tank and spank.

 

Nope.

 

Seems like the people who hate raids have never been to one. Funny that.

[Ruuprect]

Exactly, It's 2012. When an mmo comes out they know they have to have the content to compete with WoW. Rift did it, I don't see how BW are exempt from having content because the game just came out. They had YEARS, and last year a whole year of "polish". There's no excuse for a game to come out half a**ed these days.

 

Rifts content including both the introductory raids were also cleared within 2 months by some guilds. My guild(a casual raid guild) had both raids on farm in rift in 4 months. Would not say rift was much better, other than the raid mechanics were a little better.

 

Not an excuse and you r right new MMO's should be competing with what is already out on the market. All I was trying to say was it takes time for raid progression to happen. The first raids have to be somewhat easy to cater to those that have never raided.

 

That said I also wish they had made NMM raids much harder with new mechanics instead of just enrages and HP increases.

[LocalBulkCruiser]

I like the on-planet Heroics best... and they could be even better with some work.

 

It's easy to find a group for one prime-time, and the folks on my server are usually very sociable.

 

Too bad more of the Heroics aren't like mini-raids with a really cool graphic setting and still take less than 20 minutes.

Edited February 16, 2012 by LocalBulkCruiser

[Qilz]

My opinion is that I don't like raids and I was looking for others who shared the same opinion. I wasn't looking for a fight about "raids vs pvp" -- just seeing who shared my views.

 

Actually, no, you were looking for a fight or you wouldn't have phrased everything the way you did. Personally, PvP sucks in this game. It's gear vs. Gear, not player vs. player. Doesn't matter how well you react, how much better you are than another person, the one with the better gear will win most of the time.

[Marlaine]

Nope.

 

Seems like the people who hate raids have never been to one. Funny that.

 

Don't be a jerk. You know just as well as I do that's how it works. I wouldn't be commenting had I never raided. In fact I've done way too much raiding.

 

For example, let's look at Nefarian.

 

Tank Nef and Onyxia

Kill Onyxia after 2nd crackle

Stand on pillars and interrupt adds

Tank and spank Nef the last 70% while tanks kite adds

 

Wow, that was so hard....

 

Or how about another. Say heroic maloriak

 

Gray, kite adds and kill asap. interrupt maloriak

Blue, spread out and dps

Red, stack and dps, moving to the other side when your mod of choice dings at you

Green, kill adds and spank maloriak

 

Wow, another tough fight...

 

But if you want to keep trying to convince people it's more than what it really is, well you just keep on fighting your good fight.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Marlaine

[Skylarke]

I enjoy a good raid from time to time with friends and guildmates. It's not my primary reason for playing MMORPGs, however. Edited February 16, 2012 by Skylarke

[Morthis]

i'm guessing you didn't play cata when it first came out and everything was cleared in a month...

 

It was ~1.5 months for the top end guilds to clear everything. At the time the top end guilds killed heroic Sinestra, a ton of casual guilds hadn't even finished normal modes yet and weren't even remotely close to finishing heroic progression. Also relevant in this is that the gearing process took a while longer still.

 

In SW:TOR, every single guild that is capable of getting 8 players together that aren't completely retarded will absolutely steamroll through normal EV/KP in a single night. Same story for hard modes, the bugs are more challenging than most fights (and hard modes already drop the best gear available). On the gear front operations throw such an abundance of loot at you that you can quite literally finish gearing in a few weeks tops. You might consider having to chain run the same place each week for gear a grind, but it undeniably helps stretch content so that developers can realistically design it somewhat at the pace that players go through it. By giving everybody all the gear the game has to offer in weeks, you simply leave all the players wondering "Uh so now what do we do?"

 

Basically, in WoW it's only the top end guilds who spend god knows how many hours a day raiding to clear everything who are left wondering what to do next 1 month in, in SW:TOR it's pretty much everybody who can get enough decently skilled people to get together for one night.

 

No, the point is the last release of WoW had a TON less content in it than SWTOR had at release. SWTOR endgame is very competitive compared to any of the releases blizzard has put out at this time in their life. Hell, 90% of the raid content right after the release of wrath was retuned 3 year old content!

 

WoW at release has 11 raid bosses (10 in MC + Onyxia), even if we ignore Ragnaros who was near impossible for a while that puts us at 10. Progression on some of those bosses also took quite a bit of time, especially Onyxia. In terms of hours to finish everything, WoW at release had way more end game than SW:TOR did. I don't think even the best guilds in WoW at the time learned and killed Onyxia for the first time in one night. I can't imagine the best guilds in SW:TOR not clearing EV and KP both for the first time in one night on HM.

[JustTed]

Don't be a jerk. You know just as well as I do that's how it works. I wouldn't be commenting had I never raided. In fact I've done way too much raiding.

 

For example, let's look at Nefarian.

 

Tank Nef and Onyxia

Kill Onyxia after 2nd crackle

Stand on pillars and interrupt adds

Tank and spank Nef the last 70% while tanks kite adds

 

Wow, that was so hard....

 

No, it's not hard. It's just not what you described. It's also an example from like six years ago.

[Morthis]

Don't be a jerk. You know just as well as I do that's how it works. I wouldn't be commenting had I never raided. In fact I've done way too much raiding.

 

For example, let's look at Nefarian.

 

Tank Nef and Onyxia

Kill Onyxia after 2nd crackle

Stand on pillars and interrupt adds

Tank and spank Nef the last 70% while tanks kite adds

 

Wow, that was so hard....

 

But if you want to keep trying to convince people it's more than what it really is, well you just keep on fighting your good fight.

 

Funny, you pick a fight where the biggest responsibility falls on one person and then you completely gloss over that by simply saying "kite adds". I'm guessing you have never actually tanked that part.

 

Edit:

 

 

No, it's not hard. It's just not what you described. It's also an example from like six years ago.

 

He's talking about Cata nef. Cata nef was a fairly straightforward fight for dps. Pretty much everybody agreed that how well that fight went depended entirely on how good your add tank was (on normal mode, on heroic mode the raid gets more responsibility).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Morthis

[Marlaine]

No, it's not hard. It's just not what you described. It's also an example from like six years ago.

 

Uh, try cata expansion.

 

Question, have YOU ever raided before? Cause nef six years ago wasn't even close to what I described.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Marlaine

[Cerion]

I would prefer my subscription money not subsidize raid play, a form of PvE I never engage in. It was the reason I've left other MMOs...when I saw my sub money being spent on elaborte Raids, while my playstyles got the dev leftovers.

 

If that happens with SWTOR, you can bet I'll be gone.

[Marlaine]

Funny, you pick a fight where the biggest responsibility falls on one person and then you completely gloss over that by simply saying "kite adds". I'm guessing you have never actually tanked that part.

 

The point was simply to prove that I've raided previously. I've added Maloriak as an additional example.

 

It all comes down to exactly what I stated. MOST (not all, but most) raids come down to tank and spank with a few wrinkles.

 

People will laugh but honestly I found Diablo 2 fights in hell more challenging than any raid I've ever been a part of. At least in D2 it was random and you never know when you might come across a lighting multishot or some other random unique that could kick the crap out of you. That's entertainment to me. Not these snoozefest raids. Seriously, raids put me to sleep.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Marlaine

[mangarrage]

I have to agree with a couple caveats

 

Raiding used to be pretty dynamic. You used to have to figure out how to kill a mob. There used to be progression and increased difficulty as you worked your way through progression wise. They also used to be bigger, which was alot more micro managing a separating the raid group or assigning certain people to do this and that

 

Nowadays load up a video and you know the fight, just really stupid now

 

Raiding now is just unimaginative and with the ever decreasing size of a raid now 16 or 8 lol you cant do alot of stuff with them unfortunately and nowaday it is very lack luster

 

But as far as saying you complain about raids is the same thing over and over, are you honestly trying to tell me you dont have a rotation in pvp?

Circling around someone you dont always activate the best ability available

Hence doing the same thing over and over and over again?

 

And doing that for every one you see in a warzone or open world

 

It is much more repetitive and as in most games if you play certain classes its not only repetitive but it takes almost no skill whatsoever

[Morthis]

Or how about another. Say heroic maloriak

 

Gray, kite adds and kill asap. interrupt maloriak

Blue, spread out and dps

Red, stack and dps, moving to the other side when your mod of choice dings at you

Green, kill adds and spank maloriak

 

Wow, another tough fight...

 

But if you want to keep trying to convince people it's more than what it really is, well you just keep on fighting your good fight.

 

Guess you added another example. I'm starting to wonder what your point is. You completely ignore what the challenges of a fight were (and in case of Maloriak, there weren't all that many), and then express it in a very simple form. This can be done to every single thing you do in an MMO, I don't get your point? Heck, name the most skill based game or aspect of a game there is, I promise you, I can write it in a short list like that to make it sound trivial when it isn't.

[Marlaine]

Guess you added another example. I'm starting to wonder what your point is. You completely ignore what the challenges of a fight were (and in case of Maloriak, there weren't all that many), and then express it in a very simple form. This can be done to every single thing you do in an MMO, I don't get your point? Heck, name the most skill based game or aspect of a game there is, I promise you, I can write it in a short list like that to make it sound trivial when it isn't.

 

I've sort of covered my point in a previous post, but really it comes down to raids being unnecessarily complex and time-consuming without offering any more challenge than a well-designed 5 or 10-man dungeon. So when the raiders wanna get all high and mighty by telling me I'm not deserving of gear because I don't "put in the work", I scoff at that. I have no problem putting in the work, and in fact I play more than most raiders do. Yet somehow I'm not worthy because I refuse to play this snoozefest playstyle that isn't all that challenging and gates most players out because they are unable to commit to the clock-in and clock-out requirements of a raiding guild. I think it's a stupid design philosophy and it amazes me that gaming companies can still get away with this crap that locks out the vast majority of the playerbase. It amazes me even more that no devs have the kahoonas to try something different, when they KNOW most of their players refuse to participate in raids.

 

So yeah, it gets me a bit fired up.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Marlaine

[GellonSW]

This is cool. Havent seen PvP rage against hardcore raiders. usually its just PvP vs carebear LOL-RP and Raiders vs carebear LOL-RP.

[Morthis]

I've sort of covered my point in a previous post, but really it comes down to raids being unnecessarily complex and time-consuming without offering any more challenge than a well-designed 5 or 10-man dungeon. So when the raiders wanna get all high and mighty by telling me I'm not deserving of gear because I don't "put in the work", I scoff at that. I have no problem putting in the work, and in fact I play more than most raiders do. Yet somehow I'm not worthy because I refuse to play this snoozefest playstyle that isn't all that challenging and gates most players out because they are unable to commit to the clock-in and clock-out requirements of a raiding guild. I think it's a stupid design philosophy and it amazes me that gaming companies can still get away with this crap that locks out the vast majority of the playerbase. It amazes me even more that no devs have the kahoonas to try something different, when they KNOW most of their players refuse to participate in raids.

 

So yeah, it gets me a bit fired up.

 

Well, WoW tried to fix this a little by making 10 man raids and then LFR for on-demand raiding. Since raiding is pretty entrenched as a PvE end game option as this point, I feel those two alternatives were decent steps at attempting to bridge that gap.

 

You mention a 10 man dungeon though, given that you've obviously played WoW, how is a 10 man dungeon different from a 10 man raid? Why a separate classification?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Morthis

[Slightlycampana]

A lot of people love them and that's cool - to each his own. However, I HATE THEM. The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again.

 

I also don't enjoy raiding very much. I will never want to complete a group instance more than once or twice, and the thought of repeating raids night after night is pretty...ugh. I also hate the holy trinity. However, I am going to try and explain what I think people do enjoy about raiding.

 

It's more like a set of perfectly executed dance steps. On the hardest setting, each player has to play to their maximum ability whether it be healing, tanking or dps. They have to complete all the steps to defeating the boss in exactly the right sequence and exactly the right time, and quite a lot of practice and effort goes into achieving a flawless victory. Raiding seems to offer the kind of controlled play that PvP doesn't, being far more chaotic and unpredictable.

 

Now, from what I hear in WoW, there is only one way to defeat a boss. Whereas I think in raiding there ought to be flexibility. By being creative in how they approach a raid, players should be able to discover different ways to kill the boss. Maybe this is one way that BW can differentiate their PvE end-game from WoW's (in a minor way) and provide a bit of flexibility and opportunity for creativity that the majority of raiding seems to lack.

 

I say this as someone who doesn't raid, and hasn't played WoW

 

Ilum could have been very cool, and other planets like Ilum -- small regions where it's always PVP mode..... but they made it TOO BIG and too hard to travel to quickly.

 

I would like to see better goals for pvp than just a boring point-grind for gear. Something that provides bragging rights as much as actual in-combat benefits, e.g. guild ships, territory control, plaques to the most effective guilds displayed in fleet. But I think they need to get a handle on population balance first, or ideally find ways to mitigate the effectiveness of zergs e.g. control points which can be defended at chokepoints, underdog bonuses, etc.

[gurugeorge]

its all the same when you get down to it..

 

click click click wasd 1111111111222222765111111222 or whatever you want to think

 

 

 

Indeed, it's funny how peoples' tolerance for abstractions varies depending on their preferences.

 

Reminds me of the perennial complaints the EVE is "just a spreadsheet"

[Morthis]

Indeed, it's funny how peoples' tolerance for abstractions varies depending on their preferences.

 

Reminds me of the perennial complaints the EVE is "just a spreadsheet"

 

My friends always called it excel online while I played. That's why I always liked using this picture, it so perfectly sums up EVE.

[Tiam]

yet that's exactly what you got if you bought cata, wrath, or burning crusade and pom looks to be more of the same with pandas and pokemon...

 

Yah, well I unsubscribed to WoW 3 years ago, so that's not the case for me. My all time favorite games were DAOC, Asheron's Call 1, and Planetside.......NOT WoW.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tiam

[Shinavast]

A lot of people love them and that's cool - to each his own. However, I HATE THEM. The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again.

 

That's it. There's no curve balls, no real "thinking" involved, it's mindless button clicking to get the awezome lootz..... so you can do it all again and get the awezomer lootz.... to do it again, to get even awesomerer lootz.... and on and on you go.

 

 

 

You have clearly never played Rift and cleared Hammerknell.

 

I can't speak to WoW, as i never played end game WOW, but your description of endgame MMO raids is woefully off.

 

 

It would be like if i said that MMO pvp is "just running around killing dudes and then get killed, lawl".

 

 

There's more to either simplification.

 

 

Being good at PVP is more than just clicking buttons. So is raiding. Sure, some flashpoints are just tank and spank right on through in this game, but that's not the case with all endgame MMO raiding.

 

Holy crap, not even close. Just from Rift the Akylios fight, Sicaron fight, and Zilas fights are so much more than this. I'm sure there are other good examples. Search for the vids on youtube of those fights if you really feel like seeing good examples of engrossing gameplay with a team.

 

Even Youtube vids won't do Sicaron or Zilas justice, as you'll just be seeing that one persons perspective. In those fights everyone has a job, and you might not be seeing them all do their job just from visual and voice cues. It's involved stuff. And fun when it goes off right, frustrating when it falls apart.