Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Elenia]

great post, that is spot on...

I second this, fully agree.

[EzoEo]

I actually agree with you..I guess some of the bugs didn't bother me too much, like the sliding on the floor thing..it was annoying but not game breaking. But I think we both agree that SOE should have fixed the existing game instead of making it into a wow clone.

 

I could be wrong about the galactic market..I thought they added that later in the game tho (before the nge stuff). I remember you used to have to find the good stuff by visiting vendors/shops, word of mouth..going to coronet and watching the barker spam..haha.

 

Pre-CU could never have been fixed. They tried to balance the classes for years which is why Combat Upgrade happened to being with.

 

Due to the amount of player freedom in their builds the developers could never balance the game which also meant they couldn't design content around it.

 

The NGE happened partly because people whined about class balance for years on end and secondly because Lucasarts(not SoE) wanted the game to more sucessful.

 

So while the game was like The Sims on Tatoonine it could never be balanced which to some was bad design to begin with.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Pre-CU could never have been fixed. They tried to balance the classes for years which is why Combat Upgrade happened to being with.

 

Due to the amount of player freedom in their builds the developers could never balance the game which also meant they couldn't design content around it.

 

The NGE happened partly because people whined about class balance for years on end and secondly because Lucasarts(not SoE) wanted the game to more sucessful.

 

So while the game was like The Sims on Tatoonine it could never be balanced which to some was bad design to begin with.

 

Some changes would have had to take place, but it could have been balanced. The problem is that SOE kept making these huge sweeping changes trying to balance things which failed miserably. Maybe it would have required some simplification of the skill trees, but not an entire redesign of the game. Years on end? It was only like a year and a half or so before they gave up.

 

The way they ended up balancing things was to turn the game into a level based game. If they wanted to, they could have made an underlying level based system while keeping the original skill trees. It didn't require complete removal of classes and a switch to the bastardized first person shooter system. Somebody at LA or SOE decided (By listening to their focus groups) that players wanted a first person shooter and they made a knee jerk reaction.

 

So if you hear Bioware talking about focus groups... RUN AWAY!

Edited May 29, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[Goretzu]

Maybe I interuppted it wrong but none of them are sandbox games as their all level based design models.

 

 

Sandbox and themepark are two ends of a scale (I don't think either is a particularly correct defination, but it works as a simple overarching scale).

 

Skill based and Level based are another.

 

Whilst a lot of "Sandy" games are Skill based, there's no real need for them to be. A level based desgin works with "Sandy" games too. (and there's no reason a Skill based one couldn't work with a themepark design - some FPS show this, I guess).

 

Minecraft for example cointains a Level based grind, but equally is absolutely sandbox game.

 

 

 

 

In the case of SWTOR a lot of "Sandy" features could be added without changing the core of the current game significantly...... and I think this is probably the brightest path for SWTOR to follow subs-wise.

[EzoEo]

Some changes would have had to take place, but it could have been balanced. The problem is that SOE kept making these huge sweeping changes trying to balance things which failed miserably. Maybe it would have required some simplification of the skill trees, but not an entire redesign of the game. Years on end? It was only like a year and a half or so before they gave up.

 

So if you hear Bioware talking about focus groups... RUN AWAY!

 

The problem was the nature of the skill points system to begin with. People could stack melee and ranged defence as there was no limits to what combinations a person could use.

 

The sweeping changes were done because it was only the way the devs could try to balance the classes and still it failed. Giving people total freedom of their skill points resulted in a broken game which could never be fixed.

 

Holy trinity games suffer from balance issues because of the class system which is why the Sage/Scorc balance pass happened.

 

The only games that really balaned are the likes of Battlefield 3 where everyone access to the same weapons etc and there is no magical healers or vanishing assassins.

 

IMO holy trinity MMOs will always struggle with class balance due the nature of their classes.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Sandbox and themepark are two ends of a scale (I don't think either is a particularly correct defination, but it works as a simple overarching scale).

 

Skill based and Level based are another.

 

Whilst a lot of "Sandy" games are Skill based, there's no real need for them to be. A level based desgin works with "Sandy" games too. (and there's no reason a Skill based one couldn't work with a themepark design - some FPS show this, I guess).

 

Minecraft for example cointains a Level based grind, but equally is absolutely sandbox game.

 

 

 

 

In the case of SWTOR a lot of "Sandy" features could be added without changing the core of the current game significantly...... and I think this is probably the brightest path for SWTOR to follow subs-wise.

 

I agree with most of this. One of the most successful sandbox games ever is Eve it's pretty much a skill based game. The skills have levels... But I believe it would still be considered skill based. But it could just as easily be level based.

 

To me, Sandbox just means that you aren't guided through a set storyline. But there is no reason you could have a storyline and still be given the tools to play it as a sandbox game.

Edited May 29, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[LeigisKaan]

SWG was anything but a failure. It had its failure moments, sure, but an outright failure -- Most certainly not. Possibly one of the greatest sandbox style MMOs ever made.

 

I can't agree with you more. The PvP was far better than here and the open world environment and player crafting far exceeds what SWTOR has put together. Honestly, I play SWTOR because I'm a Star Wars fan and I like MMO's. If SWG were still up and running, that would be the game I play.

[EcrirTwyLar]

I can't agree with you more. The PvP was far better than here and the open world environment and player crafting far exceeds what SWTOR has put together. Honestly, I play SWTOR because I'm a Star Wars fan and I like MMO's. If SWG were still up and running, that would be the game I play.

 

If it was a fixed incarnation of the original pre-cu SWG (with no jedi), I agree.

Edited May 29, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[TheronFett]

There needs to be elements of both.

 

Most players are sheep, and need a path to follow, along with the rest of the herd. Others want the freedom to do their own thing and develop their own content. The biggest sandbox elements that nearly all players clamor for are open worlds for exploration, character customization, and player housing.

 

SWG was the must successful sandbox MMO to date. Basically they tried to revamp the entire combat system and economy twice, and failed. At one point the developers just started giving the players the tools to develop their own content via storyteller purchases and supporting in-game events.

[EcrirTwyLar]

There needs to be elements of both.

 

Most players are sheep, and need a path to follow, along with the rest of the herd. Others want the freedom to do their own thing and develop their own content. The biggest sandbox elements that nearly all players clamor for are open worlds for exploration, character customization, and player housing.

 

SWG was the must successful sandbox MMO to date. Basically they tried to revamp the entire combat system and economy twice, and failed. At one point the developers just started giving the players the tools to develop their own content via storyteller purchases and supporting in-game events.

 

While I agree that SWG probably had the best concept, Eve Online is probably the most successful Sandbox MMO to date. Just the fact that it is STILL successful and SWG isn't proves it.

[LeigisKaan]

If it was a fixed incarnation of the original pre-cu SWG (with no jedi), I agree.

 

I think that may be the best option (TKM FTW) but I would have picked the last version over this game as well. For the record I'm not knocking SWTOR, I just thought SWG was better.

[EcrirTwyLar]

While I agree that SWG probably had the best concept, Eve Online is probably the most successful Sandbox MMO to date. Just the fact that it is STILL successful and SWG isn't proves it.

 

Actually... If SWTOR had a space game with all the activities that Eve Online has (Mining, battle, trading, etc) I would be seriously hooked.

[Crazy_Person]

When I hear people talk about SWG I think to myself... "Boy I am glad I never played that game." To much of stuff that I really do not enjoy... farming for crafting mats among other things.

 

I prefer thempark to be the base of the game, but some sandbox elements are nice. Customization of some things would be fun.... but at the same time I don't want to be crossing through new york, followed by LA, followed by Seattle on a planet that is supposed to be nearly uninhabitable, and only of interest to the war because of a valuable resource that is worth sacrificing many lives for.

 

The thing I don't really like is that people are still calling for SWTOR to become SWG2. The people who hated the NGE (did I Get that right?) for turning their beloved game into what it wasn't are in some cases (note i said some because it is impossible to accurately say "all" when referring to any group of people) calling for this game to be radically changed in a similar fashion. I am not sure how the story driven nature of this game lends itself well to adding to many sandbox elements.

 

The story portion of this game has done a lot to enhance it... although it feels a lot like WOW I am enjoying my level up experience much more than I did in wow... but at the same time the restrictions it adds IMO don't lend themselves well to certian elements of sandbox gameplay such as building cities, crafting being the main endgame etc etc...

 

Sandbox elements for me could add something to the game… but I don’t want to be talking about SWTOR NGE the way that SWG people look back at that change to their game with disgust.

[Goretzu]

When I hear people talk about SWG I think to myself... "Boy I am glad I never played that game." To much of stuff that I really do not enjoy... farming for crafting mats among other things.

 

I prefer thempark to be the base of the game, but some sandbox elements are nice. Customization of some things would be fun.... but at the same time I don't want to be crossing through new york, followed by LA, followed by Seattle on a planet that is supposed to be nearly uninhabitable, and only of interest to the war because of a valuable resource that is worth sacrificing many lives for.

 

The thing I don't really like is that people are still calling for SWTOR to become SWG2. The people who hated the NGE (did I Get that right?) for turning their beloved game into what it wasn't are in some cases (note i said some because it is impossible to accurately say "all" when referring to any group of people) calling for this game to be radically changed in a similar fashion. I am not sure how the story driven nature of this game lends itself well to adding to many sandbox elements.

 

The story portion of this game has done a lot to enhance it... although it feels a lot like WOW I am enjoying my level up experience much more than I did in wow... but at the same time the restrictions it adds IMO don't lend themselves well to certian elements of sandbox gameplay such as building cities, crafting being the main endgame etc etc...

 

Sandbox elements for me could add something to the game… but I don’t want to be talking about SWTOR NGE the way that SWG people look back at that change to their game with disgust.

 

 

 

You couldn't change SWTOR like that..... well I suppose you could, but really there wouldn't be much of a point.

 

They could add some of the best parts of SWG to SWTOR though, keeping the strengths of SWTOR and shoring up it's weaknesses with some of the best bits of SWG.

 

One of the things that bemuses me with SWG is that people seem to think SWG 2 (or anything "copying" it) couldn't be any better than SWG.

 

I mean WoW was basically EQ1-lite, and yet it's WoW that peaked at 5,000,000 western subs, not EQ1.

 

 

Personally I'd have to hope that anything copied from SWG would be much better than was was in SWG.

 

If Bioware did a JTL expansion for example I'd hope it would be better in everyway (including fun) and missing the bad parts and weakness from an orginal concept launched in 2004, nearly a decade ago.

[EcrirTwyLar]

When I hear people talk about SWG I think to myself... "Boy I am glad I never played that game." To much of stuff that I really do not enjoy... farming for crafting mats among other things.

 

I prefer thempark to be the base of the game, but some sandbox elements are nice. Customization of some things would be fun.... but at the same time I don't want to be crossing through new york, followed by LA, followed by Seattle on a planet that is supposed to be nearly uninhabitable, and only of interest to the war because of a valuable resource that is worth sacrificing many lives for.

 

The thing I don't really like is that people are still calling for SWTOR to become SWG2. The people who hated the NGE (did I Get that right?) for turning their beloved game into what it wasn't are in some cases (note i said some because it is impossible to accurately say "all" when referring to any group of people) calling for this game to be radically changed in a similar fashion. I am not sure how the story driven nature of this game lends itself well to adding to many sandbox elements.

 

The story portion of this game has done a lot to enhance it... although it feels a lot like WOW I am enjoying my level up experience much more than I did in wow... but at the same time the restrictions it adds IMO don't lend themselves well to certian elements of sandbox gameplay such as building cities, crafting being the main endgame etc etc...

 

Sandbox elements for me could add something to the game… but I don’t want to be talking about SWTOR NGE the way that SWG people look back at that change to their game with disgust.

 

Unless you were a crafter, the only mats you dealt with her drops from kills. Those who chose a crafting class were the ones doing most of the harvesting. Of course the crafters were the rich people...

 

As far as a SWTOR NGE goes, you are right. You should never change the core of a game by that much. It alienates the player base because they didn't buy "That game".

Edited May 29, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[MWidowmaker]

there is a reason that SWG did not have these huge subscriber numbers that all the SWG fanboys seem to think will flock to this game if it was turned into SWG 2

 

give it a rest already, this is NOT SWG 2, and feeble attempts to turn it into this version of that game are fail

 

that game sucked, there, it needed to be said, move on with your lives and stop trying to force everyone else who does NOT want to play SWG 2 into joining your holy crusade to remake this game in that image

[Crazy_Person]

Unless you were a crafter, the only mats you dealt with her drops from kills. Those who chose a crafting class were the ones doing most of the harvesting. Of course the crafters were the rich people...

As far as a SWTOR NGE goes, you are right. You should never change the core of a game by that much. It alienates the player base because they didn't buy "That game".

 

I first should clarify that while I said I'm glad I didn't play SWG that is a play style preference... if you liked the game that does not make you any better or worse than me.

 

Anyway...

 

Crafters being the rich people can be a problem. I never liked the idea of the best items in the game being crafted. I remember a few epic crafted items in wow that had few alternatives too outside of the large raids... the market price was set by gold buyers where legit players could not hope to match it in any reasonable time... (Bioware needs to be doing everything it can to stop credit buyers and sellers, but they will never catch all of them. When i say reasonable meaning time it takes to get a piece of gear in a raiding guild). Many (again not all) of the SWG fans are asking for crafting to be a core piece of the game...

Edited May 29, 2012 by Crazy_Person

[Shayde]

You need themepark elements to get people into the game and sandbox ones to keep them there.

 

It's just that simple.

[EcrirTwyLar]

there is a reason that SWG did not have these huge subscriber numbers that all the SWG fanboys seem to think will flock to this game if it was turned into SWG 2

 

give it a rest already, this is NOT SWG 2, and feeble attempts to turn it into this version of that game are fail

 

that game sucked, there, it needed to be said, move on with your lives and stop trying to force everyone else who does NOT want to play SWG 2 into joining your holy crusade to remake this game in that image

 

Based on what you posted I'm guessing you didn't even read the posts in this thread. Nobody asked for what you are talking about.

[Flyingcookie]

there is a reason that SWG did not have these huge subscriber numbers

 

well theres a reason sandbox mmos like eve online hold their suscribers/get more suscribers (well theres a reason sandbox mmos like eve online hold their suscribers/steadily increasing them(https://www.eveger.de/page_serverstatus.php)

instead of loosing half in 6 monthinstead of loosing half in 6 month

Edited May 29, 2012 by Flyingcookie

[EcrirTwyLar]

I first should clarify that while I said I'm glad I didn't play SWG that is a play style preference... if you liked the game that does not make you any better or worse than me.

 

Huh? You lost me with this. I didn't mean to imply that anyone was better than anyone else.

[WingsofCrystal]

I remember the threads pre launch that addressed players preferences and the concept that most people who play mmos are not raiders or are not looking for group content to grind.

 

It seems clear to me that any product that is mass marketed and wants meaningful numbers of subs or players needs to be a hybrid. It definitely needs higher level raid content and pvp for those players that desire that play, but also needs content that the rest of the players find enjoyable and that motivates them to play. Sandbox elements / minigames / quality crafting and economy can partly fill that role as well as fun repeatable and extensive advanced at cap questing.

Edited May 29, 2012 by WingsofCrystal

[EcrirTwyLar]

well theres a reason sandbox mmos like eve online hold their suscribers instead of loosing half in 6 month

 

Exactly. SWG lost it's subscribers because SOE was incapable of fixing their game. CCP on the other hand listens to their customers and keeps their game running well. I honestly don't remember encountering a bug in Eve Online. I'm sure they exist, pretty much every game does. But they are few enough that I don't remember any.

[Flyingcookie]

Exactly. SWG lost it's subscribers because SOE was incapable of fixing their game. CCP on the other hand listens to their customers and keeps their game running well. I honestly don't remember encountering a bug in Eve Online. I'm sure they exist, pretty much every game does. But they are few enough that I don't remember any.

 

SWG was fine but they wanted wow's sucess and nge'd themself to death

 

 

This Game wanted wow's sucess but this stall genre develops slowly past the hamster-wheel mmo's

Edited May 29, 2012 by Flyingcookie

[Skidrowbro]

I like themeparks better just because you have more rides to choose from but when I'm in a sandbox I like how I can build my castle anyway I want