A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Alexdaphnis]

Well that's easy to answer. It's because Ops have a zero cooldown cloaking screen that also makes them invulnerable to all effects as well, they can backstab from 30 meters away and backstab also has no cooldown, and they can shoot fireballs from their eyes.

 

You might not have noticed these abilities because you just don't know how to play your class, you need to learn from someone who has never played the class before. Obviously they know a lot more about Ops then you do.

 

 

You will be surprised how many think that scoundrel/op have all that you writed:D...even fireball:)

[Antilogical]

It's a pity they were painted in a bad light to begin with, quick kills and such, people still have a bitter taste in thier mouth from that. Maybe once competitive PvP comes around people will see how tedious they have become, and that they are in need of improvement, or an overhaul.

[Alphashado]

Do you fear an Operative?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Fix them.

[Floored]

So reliable when you use it on someone who dispels it/gets dispelled you have to wait its 12s cd

 

Some people actually press their buttons, you know

 

So press your buttons and vanish... Now you're back to where you started.

[Dee-Jay]

Acid Blade is a poorly designed (albeit reasonably powerful) ability.

 

Having another buff to maintain on such a short cooldown that only affects one attack is really crap design (Hidden Strike is only usable from Stealth).

 

Hindden Strike too is poorly conceived as it gives Operatives huge opening burst, but nothing much outside of it and thus becomes an ability we only get to use about once a minute.

 

Something like Shadowstep really would go a long way in adding some utility and fun to the class while making them less about opening burst in a stun.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[Sinemetu]

Wow, there is a lot of ignorance and blind hate going on in this thread. I think it comes down to perception equaling reality in most people's minds. The claim is that operatives need a gap closer (or something) since every other melee has one. The counterclaim is that stealth is a gap closer. Of course, that's dumb to say, since assassins also get stealth. Let's compare the utility each class has in PvP:

 

Assassins:

 

Base:

 

Force Shroud (3s of immunity to tech/force attacks, talented up to 5s on a 1m/45s CD)

Deflection (+50% defense for 12 seconds)

Vanish (3/2 minute cooldown)

Sprint (+150% speed for 2s on a 30s/20s talented CD)

Knockback (PBAOE on a 30s CD)

Stun (4s, 30y range, 1m/50s CD)

Spike (2s knockdown on a 30s CD)

Taunt, AOE Taunt (30% less damage to allies)

Sleep (10y range, 75% of resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Force Pull

Low Slash (4s mez on a 15s CD, single target)

 

Operatives:

 

Base:

 

Evasion (+100% chance to dodge for 2s, 1m/45s CD)

Shield Probe (Absorb small amount of damage, 45s/30s CD)

Vanish (3/2 minute CD)

Flashbang (targeted AOE 8s mez, must be facing target, 10y range, 1m CD)

Stun (4s, 10y range, 1m/45s CD)

Sleep (10y range, fills resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Jarring Strike (2s knockdown, requires stealth, must be behind target)

 

Wow. Look at all that extra CC operatives don't have. They obviously don't need to have a knockback or a gap closer or anything just because, wow, they have so much utility and escapes and stuns and stuff. Oh, wait. I was looking at the assassin abilities. nvm.

 

More seriously, I'd like to point out some of the more serious advantages assassins have above and beyond the fact that they have more stuns than operatives. Their basic stun is 30y range. That's huge, on a melee. Want to catch someone who's running and sprint is on CD? Stun 'em from 30 yards away and run up before it wears off.

 

I have yet to divine the reason why the operative sleep has to fill the resolve bar while the assassin one doesn't. It's a very significant difference: my assassin can sleep someone, wait for them to break free, and sleep them again in order to cap. My operative has to wait for the resolve bar to go around and hope not to get seen in the meanwhile.

 

Flashbang is just not as good as people seem to think. It requires a target, it requires you to be facing the target, and it has a 10y range + a smallish aoe. It has no utility beyond being a mez that will probably be broken by the time the GCD is done. Compare that to a knockback that can kill people in voidstar, stop a ball carrier cold in huttball (or save the carrier) and is incredibly easy to use.

 

Beyond all this, assassins actually do really good damage. I've seen them top voidstar with 400k damage, and my 40ish tankassin can do 200k+ in a good match. I wish I could say the same about operatives, but honestly I don't think I've seen one at 50 in weeks.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Sinemetu

[Anelyn]

We don't need a sprint, nor do we need a pull or anything of sorts. Would be nice to have one? That goes for every class without. I'd much rather prefer a knockback to be honest, but I can live without one as well.

[Sinemetu]

We don't need a sprint, nor do we need a pull or anything of sorts. Would be nice to have one? That goes for every class without. I'd much rather prefer a knockback to be honest, but I can live without one as well.

 

As a healer, I'd prefer a knockback as well, but if we're looking at balance, then yes, operatives need something.

[CaptainInsano]

Whoever said Operative is the worst class is technically correct. It is the undisputed worst healer in PvE and PvP and the worst DPS in PvE, mediocre DPS in PvP. It's not THAT far behind the other classes, but you can't name a worse class at the moment. It also happens to be the most underplayed class. Fix this class with something. You're never going to see overwhelming support for buffs to Operatives on these forums no matter how bad the class gets because 2% of the population actually plays one, but they need buffs nonetheless.

[Ryotknife]

the only thing comparing ops to assassins does is prove that assassins are overpowered, not that ops are underpowered.

 

try again.

[Ryotknife]

Whoever said Operative is the worst class is technically correct. It is the undisputed worst healer in PvE and PvP and the worst DPS in PvE, mediocre DPS in PvP. It's not THAT far behind the other classes, but you can't name a worse class at the moment. It also happens to be the most underplayed class. Fix this class with something. You're never going to see overwhelming support for buffs to Operatives on these forums no matter how bad the class gets because 2% of the population actually plays one, but they need buffs nonetheless.

 

ops do NOT have mediocre dps. they are tied with maras for having the highest damage potential of any class in pvp.

 

not even maras can kill my char down in under 10 seconds, champ geared (not even BM geared) ops REGULARLY do.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Aidank]

ops do NOT have mediocre dps. they are tied with maras for having the highest damage potential of any class in pvp.

 

not even maras can kill my char down in under 10 seconds, champ geared (not even BM geared) ops REGULARLY do.

 

We've got mediocre sustained damage, our burst is great though.

 

 

However, to pull off the burst you're referencing they need to dump all of their energy which regens slower when it's low. Meaning had you survived their burst for the next 30 seconds or so they would have the lowest damage in the game by a pretty wide margin.

 

 

We can only do decent dps (even then it's nothing to brag about really) if we keep our energy very high, if we're dumping our energy for burst damage then our dps is absurdly terrible.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Aidank

[kweassa]

Agree with this.

 

Many Operatives just want to be a stunlocker/ganker, and not use 1/2 of their skills.

 

Comparing Sorcerers with Operatives overall is a BS argument, too, everyone knows Sorcerers are OP, doesn't mean Operatives need buffs.

 

You can't have stealth, and front-end burst, and off-healing, and CC, and gap-closers, and ranged attacks wrapped up into one class. Doesn't make sense.

 

^^^ This. Sums it up nicely.

 

 

The Ops want a gap closer? Then give my Guardian/Juggernaut a repeatable self-heal.

[Ryotknife]

We've got mediocre sustained damage, our burst is great though.

 

 

However, to pull off the burst you're referencing they need to dump all of their energy which regens slower when it's low. Meaning had you survived their burst for the next 30 seconds or so they would have the lowest damage in the game by a pretty wide margin.

 

 

We can only do decent dps (even then it's nothing to brag about really) if we keep our energy very high, if we're dumping our energy for burst damage then our dps is absurdly terrible.

 

pretty sure pts with 100 heat have it worse, seeing how it would take about a minute for us to regen heat back to 0.

 

not to mention, the fact that you can burst 15-17k easy against anyone other than a sorc (too many escapes) kinda proves my point. just giving ops a gap closer would improve them in huttball, but would make them even more overpowered in ald or void where ops/assassins are pretty much a necessity (and ops can burst better, making them better at ninja capping)

 

and yes, ill admit that ops suck at huttball, but they are too powerful in ald and void.

 

now when rated WZs come out it is going to be huttball and huttball only, then ill retract my objections

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Crassius]

First off, this is not a thread made to whine about the changes made to Operatives in pvp. Personally, I think a slightly lower damage hidden strike is a fair trade with the buff jarring strike was given to not fill the resolve bar. An issue I do feel needs addressed however is the lack of a gap closing power for Operatives, specifically concealment.

 

If you look at the other melee classes, they all have some sort of skill that allows them to get in a ranged dps' face more quickly (Force Charge, Jet Charge, Grapple, Force Speed, etc). Operatives have two talents that provide movement speed increases, but one requires us to use Debilitate on a target (our best stun), and the other requires us to burn out best defensive cooldown (Cloaking Screen). The other melee classes do not have similar drawbacks built into their gap closers, and only Jet Charge requires a talent.

 

Here is my suggestion:

 

1) Switch Meticulously Kept Blades and Culling in the Concealment talent tree.

2) Roll Acid Blade and Culling into one talent. It would still be a 3 point talent, and points invested beyond the first would only increase the damage dealt to poisoned targets (1%/2%/3%).

3) Create a new 31 point talent similar to Shadowstep used by rogues in that other game whose name cannot be spoken. The range would be equal to that of the other gap closers, and the operative would end up behind his or her target.

 

Now, before anyone says "Stealth is your gap closer, that talent would be overpowered!", I would like to point out that the other stealthy melee class not only has a gap closer in the form of a sprint, but also has an AoE knockback. I am suggesting Operatives sacrifice the utility of a knockback in order to have a skill that would bring them more into line with the other melee classes when outside of stealth.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated, and yes I can feel the flames at my back as I finish typing this. Cheers!

 

As a Juggernaut my comment is that "your stealth is your gap closer". Picture this scenario:

 

Juggernaut leaping to Sage, knockback, has to walk while snared/rooted/nuked to hell and back.

Operative sneaking to Sage, knockback, uses new gap closer.

 

You compare your class to "the other stealth class", but you're asking to have more than the non stealth class. Wouldn't we be entitled to more gap closers as well then? Our smart move is to walk up to people and attack them (if they're stupid enough to let us), and use the charge to counter knockback/similar cc. Nevermind that we can't "close the gap" to snipers/gunslingers in cover. You can, at least the first time.

 

You can sneak up to your target, stun it out of stealth, burst damage and snare it, plus you got several abilities that work on 30 ft range as well (crouch and use some sniper attacks if everything fails/you want a safe finisher on 30 ft). Juggernauts? Force Jump and Saber Throw at 30 ft. That's it.

 

Some classes definitely have more mobility than others, and I would like them being brought on the same level. But the scenario of gap closer, knockback, gap closer seems just abit much. Maybe rather give a longer snare to OPs/Smugglers, ensuring targets can't run too far.

 

And nerf the aoe knockback cooldown to a minute. That one happens way too much, especially in Huttball.

[Aidank]

The real problem with operatives and their lack of a gap closer is that once an enemy is 10 yards away and has their 50% snare worn off the only possible way to get back on target is with a 2 minute cd.

 

When you consider that knockbacks punt you about that far it becomes apparent that there is a major problem, an entire AC simply shouldn't be 100% countered that easily.

 

 

Rather than a gap closer though, I propose that our slow and AoE mezz be given a 30 yard range like it is for snipers/gunslingers.

 

Even with this in place, we would have terrible mobility, but at least it would give us a way to viably get back on target.

 

 

As a Juggernaut my comment is that "your stealth is your gap closer". Picture this scenario:

 

Juggernaut leaping to Sage, knockback, has to walk while snared/rooted/nuked to hell and back.

Operative sneaking to Sage, knockback, uses new gap closer.

 

You compare your class to "the other stealth class", but you're asking to have more than the non stealth class. Wouldn't we be entitled to more gap closers as well then? Our smart move is to walk up to people and attack them (if they're stupid enough to let us), and use the charge to counter knockback/similar cc. Nevermind that we can't "close the gap" to snipers/gunslingers in cover. You can, at least the first time.

 

You can sneak up to your target, stun it out of stealth, burst damage and snare it, plus you got several abilities that work on 30 ft range as well (crouch and use some sniper attacks if everything fails/you want a safe finisher on 30 ft). Juggernauts? Force Jump and Saber Throw at 30 ft. That's it.

 

Some classes definitely have more mobility than others, and I would like them being brought on the same level. But the scenario of gap closer, knockback, gap closer seems just abit much. Maybe rather give a longer snare to OPs/Smugglers, ensuring targets can't run too far.

 

And nerf the aoe knockback cooldown to a minute. That one happens way too much, especially in Huttball.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the most played juggernaut spec, rage, get a second gap closer?

Edited March 3, 2012 by Aidank

[Cataphractone]

We don't need a sprint, nor do we need a pull or anything of sorts. Would be nice to have one? That goes for every class without. I'd much rather prefer a knockback to be honest, but I can live without one as well.

 

A knockback does nothing for concealment operatives.

[Ryotknife]

The real problem with operatives and their lack of a gap closer is that once an enemy is 10 yards away and has their 50% snare worn off the only possible way to get back on target is with a 2 minute cd.

 

When you consider that knockbacks punt you about that far it becomes apparent that there is a major problem, an entire AC simply shouldn't be 100% countered that easily.

 

 

Rather than a gap closer though, I propose that our slow and AoE mezz be given a 30 yard range like it is for snipers/gunslingers.

 

Even with this in place, we would have terrible mobility, but at least it would give us a way to viably get back on target.

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the most played juggernaut spec, rage, get a second gap closer?

 

sorcs are about the only class out there that can regularly get away from you, everyone else is pretty much stuck fighting you once you open from stealth, so once again moot point.

 

unless you get punted off a catwalk. then you can do what us non-stealthing melee dps do.....hide under the catwalk.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ryotknife

[kweassa]

The real problem with operatives and their lack of a gap closer is that once an enemy is 10 yards away and has their 50% snare worn off the only possible way to get back on target is with a 2 minute cd.

 

When you consider that knockbacks punt you about that far it becomes apparent that there is a major problem, an entire AC simply shouldn't be 100% countered that easily.

 

 

Rather than a gap closer though, I propose that our slow and AoE mezz be given a 30 yard range like it is for snipers/gunslingers.

 

Even with this in place, we would have terrible mobility, but at least it would give us a way to viably get back on target.

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the most played juggernaut spec, rage, get a second gap closer?

 

What you are basically saying is, once an Op gets hold of someone, there's no escape, and poke poke poke to death.

[rzrknight]

Well i never support this kind of thread.

 

Each class got their own good and bad points atm.

 

If you want something you need to pay something with equal valor in return.

 

What will it be then? What will operatives pay for their own gap closer?

[Rodingo]

So press your buttons and vanish... Now you're back to where you started.

 

Yeh, a broken and under-powered class. How many Conceal Ops do you see on average in a WZ, honestly? (In before " because they are in stealth, derp!") That should tell everybody something. Either the class is underpowered or simply no longer fun to play. Obviously the old,"operatives have the best story" bit is not going to get enough people to roll or to continue playing as one. I'm curious as to what other MMO had it's community kill off a class quicker.

[Aidank]

What you are basically saying is, once an Op gets hold of someone, there's no escape, and poke poke poke to death.

 

This simply isn't true, the only thing we've got to keep people in melee is a 50% snare with a 2 second root every 12 seconds.

 

Literally every ranged class has a knockback, a decent trooper or gunslinger should have absolutely no problem getting 10 yards away from an operative.

 

 

All you need to do is wait till their 50% slow on you is almost up (Its cooldown is the same as its duration) and then use your knockback, that's it.

 

 

Past that if you stay moving, there is literally no way for an operative to get back on you besides popping their 2 minute stealth cooldown.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Aidank

[kweassa]

This simply isn't true, the only thing we've got to keep people in melee is a 50% snare with a 2 second root every 12 seconds.

 

Literally every ranged class has a knockback, a decent trooper or gunslinger should have absolutely no problem getting 10 yards away from an operative.

 

 

All you need to do is wait till their 50% slow on you is almost up (Its cooldown is the same as its duration) and then use your knockback, that's it.

 

 

Past that if you stay moving, there is literally no way for an operative to get back on you besides popping their 2 minute stealth cooldown.

 

Take a wild guess as to why they gave you stealth.

 

Stealthers are the only bunch of players who can choose exactly when and at which circumstances to fight. Simply, find a circumstance which it is solely up to the whim of the Op to finish the fight:

 

* support/assist someone who has enough CC to stop the enemy from running

* hit an enemy already low at health and cannot survive long enough to run

* actively seek out an enemy who just used up escape powers

 

etc etc..

 

 

What you are saying is that you want such power that you can finish off any enemy with impunity, and basically nobody will be able to escape your attack... in addition to the extreme general tactical advantage a stealth class already has.

 

(ps) Hence, my remarks on Guardian/Juggs on heals.

 

It's like saying a Guardian/Jugg wants a casted heal, since the only healing we can do is but a limited, temporary health buff that goes away after 10~15 seconds (or, with skill tree investment, a flimsy 10% heal every 90 seconds... phooey!).

 

It's no fair. Some ranged tanky types wear heavy armour, have all the self-defense cooldowns and they still get an endless flow of healing ability!

 

Us melee tanky types are nothing but cannon/pebble/lighting fodder and so easy to mow down with focused fire... and so we need constant heals to really function as a tank!

 

Wouldn't it be nice and wonderful if us tanky melee types can endlessly heal ourselves like some other classes?

 

We wouldn't even need healer support!

 

...

 

Get the picture?

Edited March 3, 2012 by kweassa

[Aidank]

Take a wild guess as to why they gave you stealth.

 

Stealthers are the only bunch of players who can choose exactly when and at which circumstances to fight. Simply, find a circumstance which it is solely up to the whim of the Op to finish the fight:

 

* support/assist someone who has enough CC to stop the enemy from running

* hit an enemy already low at health and cannot survive long enough to run

* actively seek out an enemy who just used up escape powers

 

etc etc..

 

 

What you are saying is that you want such power that you can finish off any enemy with impunity, and basically nobody will be able to escape your attack... in addition to the extreme general tactical advantage a stealth class already has.

 

You know what, I'm going to give you a second try here, and let you rethink that post a little bit.

[kweassa]

You know what, I'm going to give you a second try here, and let you rethink that post a little bit.

 

What did you expect?

 

A stealthy class being able to engage and finish off anyone in 1vs1 situation, at whatever given circumstances, without having to actually use the stealth advantage to carefully pick and choose the fight you can finish?

 

Edited March 3, 2012 by kweassa