The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Bloodtau]

This is my two cents towards the badly needed tone down of this class, you can troll all you want, this is from my own experiences and observations.

 

The so called "hybrid builds of these classes are the main culprits, let me explain why.

 

One of these specced classes has a crazy amount of CC, pretty much game breaking in my eyes. Overall they get, aoe knockbacks,a spammable slow down, long unbreakable stuns, force charges, shields, the ability to force charge AND the ability to pull team mates to them.

 

(Did i miss anything?)

 

To top this of they get some healthy damage output AND the ability to heal themselves (lots of matches where multiple sorcs have got over 400k damage and 120k healing)

 

Show me a class that has that much given to them and people wouldn't scream op as much.

 

People that don't think they need this obviously plays the class.

[Aidank]

Holy God so much QQ over sorcerers

 

 

Maybe im denying it..Doubtfull

 

 

I have a 50 sorc with Champ/BM gear.. We aren't overpowered at all. Our static barrier can be brought down with one really good nuke and if you interrupt our healing and dps spells.. Were pretty much screwed. Marauders can pretty much destroy your health if hes any good because you'll be unable to heal after one interrupt after another(Seriously.way too many)

 

If your seeing sorcs doing so much.Do something about it and stop QQING. We are basically useless if you interrupt everything.Just saying

 

If you stand there looking stupid for 4 seconds every time your force lightning is interrupted then you're not qualified to talk about class balance.

[Jenrais]

If you stand there looking stupid for 4 seconds every time your force lightning is interrupted then you're not qualified to talk about class balance.

 

So.Ranged classes have to be in melee range to interrupt?Didn't know that at all.. However i am a healer and i have to actually stay in one place to heal. So its quite easy for melee to interrupt..I usaully kite em but more than two annoys me.

[Aidank]

So.Ranged classes have to be in melee range to interrupt?Didn't know that at all.. However i am a healer and i have to actually stay in one place to heal. So its quite easy for melee to interrupt..I usaully kite em but more than two annoys me.

 

For one, this thread is clearly about 20/21 dps sorcerers, not healers. They're the most mobile class in the game.

 

Two, as a healer you still shouldn't stand there looking stupid every time you get interrupted, there's no school lockout, use a different heal.

 

Three, the only class that doesn't need melee range to interrupt is.... other sorcerers. Maybe snipers but you never see any at 50.

[kyuyu]

lol, maurad/sent is the most ridiculous class in this game except in Ilum.

 

I believe sorcerer/sage might need to be buffed soon if they introduce rated warzones.

 

Sorcerer/sage dps spec are pretty much useless if you have melee on them. Smart healers should learn to cross-dispel. Running around does nothing to help your team while melee is damaging you.

 

So many times when I got CCed, a team member just ignore me and not dispel, or interrupt choke.

Edited February 18, 2012 by kyuyu

[Aidank]

Op says backlash is the most OP CC ability a sorc has/in the game, I dont know anyone who even takes backlash unless they're going full TK/Lightning tree. You only take either instacast whirlwind OR backlash. Overload with bindings is far more effective vs meelee players and you just can't use it if you keep giving them resolve with useless CC.

 

All your hybrids builds are terrible builds focused entirely on being able to CC, without any regard to how the game actually plays out.

 

Seriously if your mara cant beat a sorc 1v1 l2p

 

I take backlash, and 20/21 gets insta cast whirlwind too.

 

It's crazy how little so many sorcerers know about their own class, if you're taking a little bit of improved dot damage over increased burst damage, 10 seconds off force speed, and the most insanely overpowered low-cooldown cc in the game then I really don't know what to tell you.

 

Unless you're just blindly trying to top the dps meters then 20/21 > 13/28

[StrawberryMochi]

Seriously if your mara cant beat a sorc 1v1 l2p

 

imo marauders are the most ridiculous 1v1 class in this game

 

i agree with the above sentiments from previous posts.

[Tumri]

I played the 20/21 CC spec for a bit when we were doing 4-man groups trying to queue with other guilds at the same time. It's incredibly effective in Alderaan - a single 20/21 sage can hold off the entire 6-person zerg for that left-side turret long enough (for someone else) to cap it.

 

That's horrifically imbalanced.

 

Yes taking all that CC will drop your DPS by about 7-8% but it's worth it. In PvP that sort of difference doesn't matter if you're gaining as much as you do with the CC heavy hybrid. The forked lightning variant even has more burst and AoE than a standard 0/13/28 build. It's just far better unless you're fighting a raid boss.

 

I really do appreciate you doing the spreadsheet math for me though. I don't have excel so I couldn't do it myself. I think you're being fairly reasonable in your argument but I also think that you're underestimating the power of CC and overestimating the effect of 8% sustained damage in any PvP scenario.

[justcallmetarzan]

This is my two cents towards the badly needed tone down of this class, you can troll all you want, this is from my own experiences and observations.

 

The so called "hybrid builds of these classes are the main culprits, let me explain why.

 

One of these specced classes has a crazy amount of CC, pretty much game breaking in my eyes. Overall they get, aoe knockbacks,a spammable slow down, long unbreakable stuns, force charges, shields, the ability to force charge AND the ability to pull team mates to them.

 

 

Please return to page 81 and read my lengthy detailed post describing exactly why the CC capabilities the OP identifies are NOT game-breaking.

 

To top this of they get some healthy damage output AND the ability to heal themselves (lots of matches where multiple sorcs have got over 400k damage and 120k healing)

 

No other class really needs it. Sorc is the squishiest class in the game. There is no way to show exactly how much damage a Sorc/Sage is taking, but with their squishy-ness, it's certainly needed.

 

Also, the ones that are putting up impressive healing numbers are probably running the 7/13/21 hybrid, which is specifically geared towards self-healing, and has output on par with the other hybrids.

 

In fact, 7/13/21 does almost as much damage as the defensive version of 13/28, albeit most of it dependent on AOE damage (1258 and 1268 respectively).

 

Show me a class that has that much given to them and people wouldn't scream op as much.

 

I suppose you mean like scoundrel and commando, both of which have the capacity for good self-heals and high damage. Or any tank spec, because protection is functionally (for the target) the same mechanic as healing... better actually, because they never take the damage, and the tank can mitigate that damage better through incoming heal buffs.

 

People that don't think they need this obviously plays the class.

 

Yes, clearly - it has nothing to do with actual math and game mechanics. It's only because all the Sages in the world, none of which actually USE those talents (or if they do, are gimping their dps) want to keep them around.

[Guioki]

For one, this thread is clearly about 20/21 dps sorcerers, not healers. They're the most mobile class in the game.

 

Two, as a healer you still shouldn't stand there looking stupid every time you get interrupted, there's no school lockout, use a different heal.

 

Three, the only class that doesn't need melee range to interrupt is.... other sorcerers. Maybe snipers but you never see any at 50.

 

This thread was about the 20/21 sorcs, but everyone with half a brain realizes just how bad that spec is.

 

Flog a dead horse all you like, check the thread with the title "we all know sorcs are OP but which is the weakest class" where everyone who posts says sorcs/snipers are the easiest classes to kill.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I am going to start allowing a general discussion on S

It's incredibly stupid for hybrids to be like some ultimate fusion of two specs that's far more overpowered than either 31-point build. This isn't Dragonball Z.[/size][/b]

 

It's safe to say that I'm one of the top 2-3 Marauders on my server. I haven't met another Marauder that has beaten my damage more than I beat theirs and I use PvE gear with 0 expertise in total. I am not some baddie that cries about classes that kill me in a WZ. I make threads when I feel there is a large balance issue that needs to be addressed. When I do make threads I make sure to actually find the reason for the imbalance instead of asking for general nerfs. In this thread I've pinpointed specific things that cause imbalance and I threw out suggestions that I felt would fix the problem while not over-nerfing the class.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Kk2Fd#0

 

I think in order to have an effective argument how class balance. We need to profile the person making the claims it's "Over powered" what I quoted is listed in his original post. Now he throws the "This isn't Dragon Ball Z" I think that's rather harsh. No one said it was. Obviously this is a slander to people who like or enjoy anime.

 

Secondly, he speaks that's he's either 2nd of 3rd top warrior on his server. May imply an inflated ego or self worth. Now from the screen shot provided. List his as the top DPS in a single Huttball. This again point's an "entitlement"

 

Lastly, this claim he has made has been de-bunked several, several times and the majority of the people posting don't agree for his reading's to be accurate. I think it would not be in the game's best interest to try to "re-vamp" an entire tree in the SECOND month of the game being released.

 

This is just what I gather.

[Guioki]

I take backlash, and 20/21 gets insta cast whirlwind too.

 

It's crazy how little so many sorcerers know about their own class, if you're taking a little bit of improved dot damage over increased burst damage, 10 seconds off force speed, and the most insanely overpowered low-cooldown cc in the game then I really don't know what to tell you.

 

Unless you're just blindly trying to top the dps meters then 20/21 > 13/28

 

I didn't say they CAN only take, I basically said anyone with half a brain SHOULD only take. Your spec has less burst then mine, a "little bit of dot damage" = 20% more dot damage on 10 dots every 15 seconds, along with 30% surge rating on all crit dots and death field.

 

10 seconds off force speed is the only advantage to your spec and isn't worth spending 7 points to get.

 

You might be able to run away and live, but what use is that? I can possibly do that extra bit of damage needed to kill that healer.

[Tumri]

I've defended against personal attacks far too many times. I'm not going to do it again just for you. Go read the thread and find the other 20 times people have used personal attacks.

[Tumri]

I didn't say they CAN only take, I basically said anyone with half a brain SHOULD only take. Your spec has less burst then mine, a "little bit of dot damage" = 20% more dot damage on 10 dots every 15 seconds, along with 30% surge rating on all crit dots and death field.

 

10 seconds off force speed is the only advantage to your spec and isn't worth spending 7 points to get.

 

You might be able to run away and live, but what use is that? I can possibly do that extra bit of damage needed to kill that healer.

 

Read the top part of the original post. I've updated it to show exactly how much damage you might lose in a completely standstill single target situation. In PvP the 0/23/18 build might actually be MORE damage than the fully damage focused 0/13/28 build because of how the build boosts Chain Lightning damage and the chances of not having an few incidental AoEs from Chain Lightning is stupidly low. To top it off the 0/23/18 build has more burst than any of the other specs.

[justcallmetarzan]

That's horrifically imbalanced.

 

Yes taking all that CC will drop your DPS by about 7-8% but it's worth it. In PvP that sort of difference doesn't matter if you're gaining as much as you do with the CC heavy hybrid. The forked lightning variant even has more burst and AoE than a standard 0/13/28 build. It's just far better unless you're fighting a raid boss.

 

The forked lightning one is a dps loss over other 20/21 builds if you are dot-tabbing correctly.

 

I really do appreciate you doing the spreadsheet math for me though. I don't have excel so I couldn't do it myself. I think you're being fairly reasonable in your argument but I also think that you're underestimating the power of CC and overestimating the effect of 8% sustained damage in any PvP scenario.

 

I will tell you from playing 20/21, 3/7/31, and 13/28 that of the three, 20/21 is my least favorite. It's certainly the least dps, and doesn't feel quite right as a ranged dps because of the ways you have to use the cc offensively to take full advantage of them.

Edited February 18, 2012 by justcallmetarzan

[Aidank]

I didn't say they CAN only take, I basically said anyone with half a brain SHOULD only take. Your spec has less burst then mine, a "little bit of dot damage" = 20% more dot damage on 10 dots every 15 seconds, along with 30% surge rating on all crit dots and death field.

 

10 seconds off force speed is the only advantage to your spec and isn't worth spending 7 points to get.

 

You might be able to run away and live, but what use is that? I can possibly do that extra bit of damage needed to kill that healer.

 

 

If you're going 20/21 why on earth would you only take one? They're both easily available.

 

 

Two, 20/21 gets lightning barrage, which I assume you didn't take seeing as you were talking about having electric bindings.

 

Three, I get a 3 second passive mezz whenever my bubble breaks, or whenever I click it off, or whenever someone else clicks theirs off, Which far outweighs the some 8% more sustained damage you can do.

[Guioki]

I've defended against personal attacks far too many times. I'm not going to do it again just for you. Go read the thread and find the other 20 times people have used personal attacks.

 

Didnt look like a personal attack, looked like an observation. The fact you think you are a "skilled" player, that beat the next highest damage class (which specializes in AOE) in group pvp by over 100k, managed to get 90k heals on yourself at the same time, and then think that other class needs a nerf is laughable.

[Guioki]

If you're going 20/21 why on earth would you only take one? They're both easily available.

 

 

 

The point is, why on earth would you go 0/20/21 in the first place. Oh thats right... to run away. Your entire spec is built around being able to run away, you cant heal, you cant kill, you cant tank, the entire point of your spec, is to run. Maybe its for huttball but guess what... other classes do it better (sin/mara/jugg/ptech). So no, not OP.

 

And PVP is not about sustained dps, its about a combination of burst dps and aoe dps. Sorc/merc aoes a group of enemies with instacast CL and Death Field, sniper/merc pick off weaker targets. I'f your trying to solo more then one person as a sorc your doing it wrong.

 

Go do Ilum pvp and see if your meelee range mez has any effect on anyone.

[Tumri]

The forked lightning one is a dps loss over other 20/21 builds if you are dot-tabbing correctly.

 

 

 

I will tell you from playing 20/21, 3/7/31, and 13/28 that of the three, 20/21 is my least favorite. It's certainly the least dps, and doesn't feel quite right as a ranged dps because of the ways you have to use the cc offensively to take full advantage of them.

 

1. True but that's why I also posted the DoT heavy build in the OP. I also mentioned "Force Horrors" is better than "Lingering Nightmares" if Tab-DoTing.

 

2. All AoE CC is most effective when used offensively. It doesn't mean it's bad when used defensively it's just that when you AoE bomb large groups it changes game.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri

[Tumri]

The point is, why on earth would you go 0/20/21 in the first place. Oh thats right... to run away. Your entire spec is built around being able to run away, you cant heal, you cant kill, you cant tank, the entire point of your spec, is to run. Maybe its for huttball but guess what... other classes do it better (sin/mara/jugg/ptech). So no, not OP.

 

And PVP is not about sustained dps, its about a combination of burst dps and aoe dps. Sorc/merc aoes a group of enemies with instacast CL and Death Field, sniper/merc pick off weaker targets. I'f your trying to solo more then one person as a sorc your doing it wrong.

 

Go do Ilum pvp and see if your meelee range mez has any effect on anyone.

 

1. With that sort of argument you could say that anyone speccing into any sort of survivability is making themselves worthless. I've already posted how most of the hybrid CC spec variants don't lose all that much damage compared to a full PvE style DPS spec.

 

2. If you think sacrificing minimal damage for CC is a dumb idea then clearly you have never PvP'd in any other MMO. Do you really think Glad rank players use PvE optimal DPS specs in PvP in WoW? Hint: They don't.

 

3. Ilum PvP /facepalm

[Guioki]

Read the top part of the original post. I've updated it to show exactly how much damage you might lose in a completely standstill single target situation. In PvP the 0/23/18 build might actually be MORE damage than the fully damage focused 0/13/28 build because of how the build boosts Chain Lightning damage and the chances of not having an few incidental AoEs from Chain Lightning is stupidly low. To top it off the 0/23/18 build has more burst than any of the other specs.

 

 

If I was going for a full single target stand still dps/burst spec, I would go with 7/31/? over anything else. Affliction into 20% alacrity into lightning strike untill you proc your instacast chain lightning into guaranteed crit thundering blast into chain lightning with the chance of forked lightning with a shock to finish them off. You can even chuck a crushing darkness in at the start if you want.

 

50% surge talented into chain lightning and thundering blast, I would stack power/alacrity with 35% crit, 10% bonus aoe damage from corruption tree. With relics etc you get your 5k crit chain lightning, with a chance at 30% bonus damage, so basically an AOE that can hit for 7k each on 5 people close together, with one of them having just taken a 4k thundering blast as well as several lead up lightning strikes which can each do 2k(cirt) plus forked lightning every 1-1.5 seconds.

 

That is in an ideal world where everyone stands still and shoots each other not using interrupts, kind of like the one where everyone comes into meelee range of a 20/21 sorc and just lets them free cast.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I think it's very important to note that original thread keeps changing to reflect the OP's heavy agenda and biased viewing. For example the screen shot that he provided which I listed below show him "out dpsing" by a wide gap the same classes that he claims are over powered. Go back to the orginal thread and see if you can find this screen shot.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Kk2Fd#0

 

You cannot he removed it. I think it takes an impact on his augment. That's why he removed it. Hard to get a nerf on ANOTHER class, when you show a screen shot of yourself as top dps in HuttBall. Again, this is not slander. I'm making a note of his questionable actions and constants changing the original page to influence you to his way of thinking.

 

Also when he says this isn't Dragon ball Z in all caps, it's now been changed to a link where a fusion dragon ball Z is.

[Jamuro]

I think by now it should be obvious that the op just tries very hard to keep this thead on first page ... he isn't open for any arguments (and there were some quite good ones)

and if you look at this posts you see him praising his awesome pvp abilities more often than mindless flaming about how op sorcs are

 

This is an epeen thread and nothing more

[Tsubodia]

The big issue and the reason why the whole topic is flawed is that there is NO standard "must use" hybrid build.

 

I personaly use a high dps build. my role in premade is to cause havok and hurt people. This requires very good safe positioning as im a 100% glass cannon.

 

another premade in my guild uses the super cc spec and his job is to die to keep the ball carrier moving or to tag an objective.

 

the role the sorc plays is intrumental to spec so you cant just go blanket nerfing without considering the major impact.

 

every class can be hugely gamebreaking in one way or another.. oh and OP./ .your claiming a sorc locking down 6 players in a blind is unbalanced. maraurders can do just that aswell, execpt their version of said cc lasts 8 seconds. Or maybee we should talk chain forrce charges which interupt and root you? there are plenty of such broken mechanisms in the game and a sorc dropping a lot of damage and effectivly playing suicide sorc for the sake of dps only really works in a well coordinated premade. and against other premades they should know how to deal with such instances anyway

 

 

(apoligies on spellnig. tired and cba correcting mistakes)

[Tumri]

Stuff

 

The entire red message at the end was an anti-troll disclaimer because the original thread had about 15 pages of people talking about my personal lack of skill and then the next 5 pages consisted of posts talking about my skill(I posted screenshots) being evidence against my original argument. Then the next 5 pages were four guys saying "If you're doing okay then why nerf sorcerers?!?!? *** you're so selfish."

 

Obviously all of this turned out to be more trollbait so I edited my little disclaimer. You can't make a decent argument about the topic at hand so you say that my anecdotal successes(Hint: I don't screenshot every single WZ I'm in.) as evidence of some mythical agenda.

 

 

TL;DR - Read the original thread. It's got enough of this crap.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri