The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I just have fun from QQ when bored at work Keep this thread alive! Its source of many laughs

 

same.

[Darth_Ricky]

on averege i get interupted of my force litening maybe 1x every 3 wz's lol

 

im not makin this up haha... 1x every 3 wz's if that

 

why-

 

cos so many ppl are bad & dont use there abilitys

 

then they come & cry to forum? rofl..

 

 

yea im so op cos u keybrd turn

 

yea im so op cos u dont know what interupt is or when to use it

 

yea im so op cos your a clickr and u cant keep up w/ ppl who actualy hotkey'd

 

yea im so op cos u dont understand my class and u dont undrstand your own even lol

[Tumri]

Snip

 

As I said those are just some basic builds I put together in 5 minutes. My point in the other post still stands though. You don't have to sacrifice a significant amount of DPS to pick up the CC talents. The spreadsheet DPS the other posted used was a result of specs that were horrifically bad(worse than mine for sure). The spread is never 1300 to 1k DPS if you don't just skip every DPS talent for no reason. Using the specs I posted(which can be modified since they're basic specs that might not even be optimized) you get around 1270 DPS on simcraft. I'm not sure if that's what the other poster used but it seems likely since his 0/13/27 number matches Simcraft.

 

I don't agree with your second build though. Backlash is the most powerful CC talent in the entire game and skipping it in a hybrid that uses the lightning tree would be bad.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri

[GrandMike]

Actually, for the most part, Sage dps is pretty mobile. If you time your procs right, you can stay entirely on the move, stopping only to channel a 1.5 sec TK Throw procced off Psychic Projection. Other than that, a 13/28 or 3/7/31 should be inst-casting everything.

 

I'm also going to have to disagree on the burst dps. It's not quite as high as other classes, but there are basically two ways to get some quick damage out.

 

First, you can channel a TK Throw to proc presence of mind, and then drop a Force in Balance and TK Wave back to back. This would give you ~8k in the space of 4 GCD's.

 

Second, you can hardcast TK Wave and chain a FIB onto the end of it. This should unload about 5k instantly due to the slight travel time on TK Wave.

 

But yes, by all means, please link my post to sorc/sage QQ'ers =)

 

Only 31 balance build is mobile. All hybrids rely on prolonged channel of TT. Theres no way around it. And thats not really an option in melee. And no way around interrupts and gap closers.

 

Other classes have teh tools, if they dont use em or use em poorly - L2P.

 

Burst is not nearly as high as some other classes. Just spamming tracer missile has more burst than that, not to mention some other certain classes. When sorc gets burst like those classes its time to talk about CC. Or when melees lose gap closers/perma slow... Until then all QQ is funny

Edited February 18, 2012 by GrandMike

[DragonAgeOrgins]

You have some useless talents in this build.

1. If your going to make it DoT based you may as well go 31 in madness..

DoT's are great, but with a hybrid you dont need them as your main focus.

You would do better getting the extra crit and .5 off your healing .

Lightning Storm is useless if your using wrath.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201GZfs0MdMbZcMcRsMz.1

 

this would be a better variant.

 

You get the CC you need..and you get the extra crit..

and faster heals.

 

 

.....

Tumri this is bad..

 

Lightning barrage is bugged last i checked. its also pretty un-needed..This also IS NOT a burst build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZfs0MzMZfMcRsMz.1

------

 

This build you get all the CC your need, and your AoE's gain an extra 10% damage..

This means that wrath+CL you net a 30% extra dps gain

 

You get the crit bonus and the AoE root.

 

You lose out on the force sprint, but with the CC you have you dont really need it.

And its because of this build that wrath and the Lightning CC need to be changed .

 

 

 

 

A Few things to note Tumri

 

The main Core CC would be (IMO)

 

Backlash OR instant cast Whirlwind-

 

Electrocute ( of course)

 

Electric Bindings OR Creeping Terror.

 

The Resolve Mechanic is wierd.

From my experience with backlash its pretty useless when gunslingers or troopers get the ticket with your number on it..and its basically better vs melee ( pretty much only melee)

 

Instant cast Whirlwind is better vs EVERYONE.

 

to the point where you can skip backlash and get better utility.

Utility that increases your up time AND burst.

 

Now this thread can die. I think he pretty much critically destroyed all the OP points.

[GrandMike]

Now this thread can die. I think he pretty much critically destroyed all the OP points.

 

No, no ,no, we still havet resolved problematic 31/31/31 build

[Tumri]

No, no ,no, we still havet resolved problematic 31/31/31 build

 

You mean the problematic 0/20/21(and other similar variants).

[GrandMike]

You mean the problematic 0/20/21(and other similar variants).

 

No, you see, most people seem have a problem with 31/31/31 build, since 20/21 sucks

 

My vote goes for nerfing 31/31/31 build

Edited February 18, 2012 by GrandMike

[Dooger]

Great post, while any pvp guild can balance out the problem by bring in sorc/sage heavy premades of their own, it hurts the game as a whole.

 

With ranked wz coming, hopefully they start fixing the issue so we dont have to run stupid comps built around this.

 

 

Not a qq, we run sorcs in our premades that can pull 800k in wzs. Its just making it too easy to win with certain comps.

 

I know bioware/mythic wants to keep an easy to play class in the game, however in this case there is plenty of margin to make adjustments and still have a powerful easy to play class.

[Sirolos]

Now this thread can die. I think he pretty much critically destroyed all the OP points.

 

Proposed fixes for hybrids was in the OP that was edited to include some of our idea's..

 

If people would have read through the entire thing ( long shot i know) they would have gotten that little hint that its the Hybrids that make Sorc's/Sages look OP.

Best part

 

I havent even made the builds for a Tri-spec

You lose some dps for the talents that make you a healing/dps hybrid in truth.

 

 

Hybrids need to be toned down..

Its what a lot of use have been saying..

The DPS of a Sorc is fine- no great no less than any other class..

 

Its when you take the best of madness and the best of lightning that things become overwhelming.

 

P.S.

 

I'll edit this post with my suggestions from earlier in this thread. If need be.

[baltman]

Great post, while any pvp guild can balance out the problem by bring in sorc/sage heavy premades of their own, it hurts the game as a whole.

 

With ranked wz coming, hopefully they start fixing the issue so we dont have to run stupid comps built around this.

 

 

Not a qq, we run sorcs in our premades that can pull 800k in wzs. Its just making it too easy to win with certain comps.

 

I know bioware/mythic wants to keep an easy to play class in the game, however in this case there is plenty of margin to make adjustments and still have a powerful easy to play class.

 

Every class is easy to play. Playing a class well is a whole other story though.

[GrandMike]

Great post, while any pvp guild can balance out the problem by bring in sorc/sage heavy premades of their own, it hurts the game as a whole.

 

With ranked wz coming, hopefully they start fixing the issue so we dont have to run stupid comps built around this.

 

 

Not a qq, we run sorcs in our premades that can pull 800k in wzs. Its just making it too easy to win with certain comps.

 

I know bioware/mythic wants to keep an easy to play class in the game, however in this case there is plenty of margin to make adjustments and still have a powerful easy to play class.

 

Winning in any premade composition is easy...Your 4 sorc composition will be eating dirt against some truly powerful stuff. No offence, but 4 sorc suck. "this is not composition you have been looking for".

Edited February 18, 2012 by GrandMike

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I just suggest the OP learn to defend properly or learn to play. Clearly the majority is not biting and his half attempt to get a class nerfed but writing out a very lengthy but meaningless thread. Clearly favoring the negative thread's to balance a class that is working as intended. I just suggest he stop right now.

 

Their is clearly no support to nerf sorc because they are working as intended. I don't see any notes in the future patch to a nerf? does anyone else. He play's a warrior of all classes, and judging from original post he made. He talks about "no warrior can out dps him" ...talk about an ego.

 

This is the case of a self entitled poster thinking he speaks on behalf of the entire community.

[Adzzy]

I don't agree with your second build though. Backlash is the most powerful CC talent in the entire game and skipping it in a hybrid that uses the lightning tree would be bad.

 

Your class is one of only two that the talent is particularly useful for (the others being operatives), a cpl its ok for, juggs and assassins, the other 4 classes it has minimal to basically zero usage outside of "blinding everyone zerging the guy with the ball".

[Dooger]

Winning in any premade composition is easy...Your 4 sorc composition will be eating dirt against some truly powerful stuff. No offence, but 4 sorc suck. "this is not composition you have been looking for".

 

We dont run 4 sorc, we historically run a melee train, and still do. 4 man group size is silly, but thats another topic.

 

Dont worry our smugglers are brutal, which is a good example of an adjsutment, reducing the stun and surge adjustment did nto result in global warming . They are still dominating in premades, and people dont have to instantly die while being stun locked.

[Guioki]

Your class is one of only two that the talent is particularly useful for (the others being operatives), a cpl its ok for, juggs and assassins, the other 4 classes it has minimal to basically zero usage outside of "blinding everyone zerging the guy with the ball".

 

Not to mention thats only if the sorc has the ball, and again gives resolve when people dont want it to.

[justcallmetarzan]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1 - The ORIGINAL 20/21 build I linked. It's not even the best combination since it was just an example I threw together in 10 seconds while writing the OP.

 

I skipped this particular build because it's a complete waste of at least one talent point (in Lightning Storm). The only good way to proc LS is by channeling your aoe (longer cast time than Chain Lightning) or by casting Lightning Strike (same cast time as CL). Alternatively you can chance it by wasting the Wrath proc and hoping for a double proc, but then you lose the 20% buff to your aoe.

 

This build reports as 1208 damage.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRbZcrcRsMkM.1 - A DoT dependent version of the build that gains DPS but loses out on 20s Force Sprint.

 

This one also wastes the point in LS. It actually reports in at less dps at 1196 - you might think it would be more dps, but the proc rate on Lightning Effusion is high enough that it extends the usability of the rotation.

 

In the two builds above "Lightning Storm" may be substituted with a talent of your choice. I felt that it provided PvP utility by allowing more Chain Lightnings at times when people piled up but it's an optional talent.

 

In the first build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Force Horrors (up to 1216 from 1208).

 

In the second build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Lightning Effusion (up to 1225 from 1196).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrhZcMcRsMz.1 - A Bursty variant that sacrifices sustained DPS for more damage from Chain Lightning.

 

Hardly - this one reports in at 1226 dps...

 

Note that NONE of these builds give up any of the core CC talents and the talents that do get swapped in/out of based on preference are "Lightning Effusion" and "Suppression". The 10s CD reduction talent for Electrocute is only taken to reach the higher tier of Madness and that is why the 3rd build doesn't take it. It's a minor CD reduction in any case.

 

None of these builds is also particularly useful. We are still talking about roughly 8% drop in dps in order to pick up two extra CC's. One of which hurts your team, and the other is useful only situationally, or against melee.

 

Bottom line is, if you want to be a team player, don't take the cc talents unless that is your specific job on the team. And if it's your job, take them all. Respeccing to take "advantage" of an aoe mez and aoe root is tantamount to a choice to be less effective for your team.

 

Or to put it another way - what are the advantages of taking both of those?? Neither is long enough to keep people off a node while you cap it. Neither is good for stopping other people from capping a node (you have three ranged aoe's for that). If you have enough people on you that you need an aoe root, you are going to be dead anyway. It seems that all these talents do is let you live just a bit longer at the expense of ~8% dps and making it harder for your team to cc things.

[Bloodtau]

They will get nerfed, it's how Bioware is currently acting.

 

They need one, and soon.

[Tumri]

I skipped this particular build because it's a complete waste of at least one talent point (in Lightning Storm). The only good way to proc LS is by channeling your aoe (longer cast time than Chain Lightning) or by casting Lightning Strike (same cast time as CL). Alternatively you can chance it by wasting the Wrath proc and hoping for a double proc, but then you lose the 20% buff to your aoe.

 

This build reports as 1208 damage.

 

 

 

This one also wastes the point in LS. It actually reports in at less dps at 1196 - you might think it would be more dps, but the proc rate on Lightning Effusion is high enough that it extends the usability of the rotation.

 

 

 

In the first build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Force Horrors (up to 1216 from 1208).

 

In the second build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Lightning Effusion (up to 1225 from 1196).

 

 

 

Hardly - this one reports in at 1226 dps...

 

 

 

None of these builds is also particularly useful. We are still talking about roughly 8% drop in dps in order to pick up two extra CC's. One of which hurts your team, and the other is useful only situationally, or against melee.

 

Bottom line is, if you want to be a team player, don't take the cc talents unless that is your specific job on the team. And if it's your job, take them all. Respeccing to take "advantage" of an aoe mez and aoe root is tantamount to a choice to be less effective for your team.

 

Or to put it another way - what are the advantages of taking both of those?? Neither is long enough to keep people off a node while you cap it. Neither is good for stopping other people from capping a node (you have three ranged aoe's for that). If you have enough people on you that you need an aoe root, you are going to be dead anyway. It seems that all these talents do is let you live just a bit longer at the expense of ~8% dps and making it harder for your team to cc things.

 

Good to know. I was previously told by another Sorcerer that the "bursty" spec sacrificed sustained DPS. That's probably the most effective spec in that case since you get all of the CC while not relying as much on DoTs that could break the mezz effects. I'll edit my OP to get rid of the 0/20/21 spec since that appears to be trash now(I underestimated some talents since it's just a build I threw together based on what Sorcs on my server were using) and add in the two most effective specs.

 

Since you argue that the CC provided by the CC heavy specs is worthless I ask you this:

 

Why do you care if the CC heavy hybrid option is removed?

 

If the build is truly bad then obviously it wouldn't hurt Sorcerers to remove that option.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Good to know. I was previously told by another Sorcerer that the "bursty" spec sacrificed sustained DPS. That's probably the most effective spec in that case since you get all of the CC while not relying as much on DoTs that could break the mezz effects. I'll edit my OP to get rid of the 0/20/21 spec since that appears to be trash now(I underestimated some talents since it's just a build I threw together based on what Sorcs on my server were using) and add in the two most effective specs.

 

Since you argue that the CC provided by the CC heavy specs is worthless I ask you this:

 

Why do you care if the CC heavy hybrid option is removed?

 

If the build is truly bad then obviously it wouldn't hurt Sorcerers to remove that option.

 

Really? that's like asking a warrior why would you mind if I removed that option. Just because it works well against your warrior, doesn't mean you can go to the fourms. Rage hard about the class that keeps beating you. It just means you need to play better. Are you going call for a NERF against every class that beats you?

 

Is under estimated the talent, equal to saying you were "WRONG" look at you. On the orginal post you pull out a spread sheet saying "We need to do this", someone comes in and proves you wrong and you act casual about it "I under estimated that""

 

No you were flat out incorrect/wrong/ not being right. Every class has defenses and other builds. You play a warrior, you even hold a screen shot of a game you played. You just void'ed every point you ever made.

[Guioki]

Op says backlash is the most OP CC ability a sorc has/in the game, I dont know anyone who even takes backlash unless they're going full TK/Lightning tree. You only take either instacast whirlwind OR backlash. Overload with bindings is far more effective vs meelee players and you just can't use it if you keep giving them resolve with useless CC.

 

All your hybrids builds are terrible builds focused entirely on being able to CC, without any regard to how the game actually plays out.

 

Seriously if your mara cant beat a sorc 1v1 l2p

[Jenrais]

Holy God so much QQ over sorcerers

 

 

Maybe im denying it..Doubtfull

 

 

I have a 50 sorc with Champ/BM gear.. We aren't overpowered at all. Our static barrier can be brought down with one really good nuke and if you interrupt our healing and dps spells.. Were pretty much screwed. Marauders can pretty much destroy your health if hes any good because you'll be unable to heal after one interrupt after another(Seriously.way too many)

 

If your seeing sorcs doing so much.Do something about it and stop QQING. We are basically useless if you interrupt everything.Just saying

[justcallmetarzan]

Good to know. I was previously told by another Sorcerer that the "bursty" spec sacrificed sustained DPS. That's probably the most effective spec in that case since you get all of the CC while not relying as much on DoTs that could break the mezz effects. I'll edit my OP to get rid of the 0/20/21 spec since that appears to be trash now(I underestimated some talents since it's just a build I threw together based on what Sorcs on my server were using) and add in the two most effective specs.

 

If you want the most effective build while retaining the CC capabilities, you probably want this spec, which includes those CC talents you wanted. It relies on Mind Crush rather than Weakened Mind - MC is a faster dot with more up front damage - and also extends your range on TK Wave by 5 meters. This one reports in at 1234 dps.

 

Since you argue that the CC provided by the CC heavy specs is worthless I ask you this:

 

Why do you care if the CC heavy hybrid option is removed?

 

If the build is truly bad then obviously it wouldn't hurt Sorcerers to remove that option.

 

Personally, I don't really care, because I'm not the dedicated CC person. But if we were running 8-man premades, and I WAS the dedicated CC person, I'd be up in arms about this.

 

I played the 20/21 CC spec for a bit when we were doing 4-man groups trying to queue with other guilds at the same time. It's incredibly effective in Alderaan - a single 20/21 sage can hold off the entire 6-person zerg for that left-side turret long enough (for someone else) to cap it.

 

You do next to nothing for damage, but by being that dedicated CC person, you don't need to - you just sold your life for an objective cap. Nobody runs this spec in Pugged WZ because they don't want to hear everyone else calling them a baddie for the -20% dps output.

 

That said, in order to make use of this build, you essentially have to actually die when you use it. Basically, to hold them off, you're dropping your ranged cc's on approach, sprinting into position and using the knockbacks and other slows to break up their zerg into a stream of 1v3's. But almost invariably, when you get into knockback range, you'll make them mad, and they all turn and just destroy you.

 

As a ranged dps, the talents just are not that useful, for reasons I've iterated before. You essentially sell your life to use them offensively, and if you need to use them defensively, they are only effective in a case where you are going to die anyway. If you use them offensively, you've wasted all your dps talents. If you use them defensively, you've wasted extra dps AND you're screwed anyway - it's Lose-Lose.

[wwkingms]

Op says backlash is the most OP CC ability a sorc has/in the game, I dont know anyone who even takes backlash unless they're going full TK/Lightning tree. You only take either instacast whirlwind OR backlash. Overload with bindings is far more effective vs meelee players and you just can't use it if you keep giving them resolve with useless CC.

 

All your hybrids builds are terrible builds focused entirely on being able to CC, without any regard to how the game actually plays out.

 

Seriously if your mara cant beat a sorc 1v1 l2p

 

 

 

i know lol

 

imo marauders are the most ridiculous 1v1 class in this game

 

 

amazing single target dmg, passively applied snare thru cauterize, amazing escape abilitys, RIDICULOUS dmg reduction abilities

 

 

marauders have been buffed into ridiculousness and yet they trot their OP rumps in here and complain about sorcs?

 

im sorry did u have to use your gap closer twice to beat that sorc? poor soul

Edited February 18, 2012 by wwkingms

[justcallmetarzan]

All your hybrids builds are terrible builds focused entirely on being able to CC, without any regard to how the game actually plays out.

 

A man after my own heart.