Why do sages/sorcs get an answer to every situation?

[savionen]

Dear BioWare,

 

I currently play as Rock. I beat Scissors, but Paper keeps kickin my ***. please nerf Paper because, I as Rock, refuse to believe my class has any counters.

 

Sorcerers much be Paper while every other class is Rock.

[Maleficium]

LOL. No that's not logical. You and I work a sales job, your commission is 50% and mine is 5%. Theoreitcally I can make more than you, that doesn't make it balanced.

 

Bad players are bad and I'll kill them all day long even if I'm just spamming basic attack - that doesn't mean anything - I should have access to the same abilities for my role that other people in my role have access to just as the roles themselves are balanced for damage output. Either that, or give me a huge damage output advantage - because at least that has the *potential* to be balanced at least in a rock-paper-scissors sense. Keeping one variable balanced while purposefully tipping other variables is the exact opposite of balanced.

 

By reading your other posts it seems that you play a trooper.

 

Since I think you skipped over my post on page 7 ill post it here again for you

 

 

Troopers have reactive shield(25% damage reduction for 12 seconds)

 

heals

 

a passive heal on recharge cells

 

a 1:30 second tenacity (everyone else has a 2 minute cooldown if you dont see how beneficial that is then I think you just don't understand game mechanics.)

 

Adrenaline rush (20% health regen over 10 seconds)

 

2 knock backs (shock strike and concussion charge)

 

 

not to mention 30-40% damage reduction just for having heavy armor HARD HITTING range attacks 2 INSTANT CAST 3K+ damage abilities

 

Seriously if my lvl 40 trooper can take out people 1v2 or 1v3 with cooldowns up you should have no problem against sages. Specially since I kill them with 4 grave rounds and a high impact bolt ( if that doesnt kill them then following that up with a demolition round bolt sure as hell will.)

 

I dare any sage/sorc to TRY and go shot for shot with my trooper you're going to lose.

 

Troopers have a HUGE advantage when it comes to damage output and survivability what more do you want?

[NinjaScroll]

Still waiting for some kind of answer from the constant sorc/sage defenders...

 

Dude... Did anyone Nerf Yoda ?!

Did they ask a nerf for the Emperor ?

 

Man, that's Star Wars, Consulars & Inquisitors are OP as ****.

Learn to deal.

[Tsubodia]

Dude... Did anyone Nerf Yoda ?!

Did they ask a nerf for the Emperor ?

 

Man, that's Star Wars, Consulars & Inquisitors are OP as ****.

Learn to deal.

 

they are only op in 2 situations

 

1) in groups of them

2) vs bads

 

 

im guessing 99% of the qq comes from the second group

[Tsubodia]

Sorcerers much be Paper while every other class is Rock.

 

if you cant 1v1 a sorc you must be bad. there are few classes that cant

[_DaGreat]

I guess Sorcerers really should have just learned to play when Operatives were critting them for 7.5k.

 

LOL yep. The L2P argument is based on the assumption that the classes were and are perfectly balanced. This assumes BW made no mistakes in balancing 24 class trees and and 300 to 400 hundred abilities. BW knew that this was impossible and before the game even launched they told us that they would be looking at metrics etc. and address class balancing issues.

 

So the BW that could not make something as simple as winning WZs count can get something as incredibly complex as class balancing right on the first go? That is what the L2P people imply. Of course, I do not actually think they believe their own argument but more likely they just like the game (specifically their class) in it's current state and don't want to see changes.

[XcSDeadDeer]

Force speed for instance - why do they need it and why can't other classes have free 'get out of jail' cards?

 

 

My powertech has a freaking jetpack, so i wonder why we don't get a "jet speed" or something that "increases movement speed by x amount fo x seconds". Only makes sense to me apparently

[dcgregorya]

By reading your other posts it seems that you play a trooper.

 

I play a gunslinger. I probably shouldn't have gone far down talking about trooper commandos because I haven't researched their talent/skill trees nearly as much as the other classes. I will say though that at first glance, force speed is still much better than any of the things you listed there. Force speed is frankly insanely *********** good when there's so many things to hide behind and self heal. It's almost impossible to get killed in a 1vs1 if you're paying attention.

Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Lugh]

As it is, Sages\Sorcs get the most powerful and flexible baseline of all classes. However, their trees (relatively) suck, so it kind of balances this out.

 

I do believe that some of that amazing utility needs to be moved into talents, however. As far as healing is concerned, I think that non-healing Sorcs\Sages should only get the expensive-and-fast heal (the one they get at level 10) and the shield. I'm actually fine with Speed, but Force Wake (root after knockback) needs to be moved further up the TK\lightning tree.

 

It's not the separate abilities that make them strong - it's the crazy combination of everything together at once.

 

:D:D:D:D You have to be kidding. The force wake ability is third tier already, and the more annoying TK collapse is 4th tier.

 

Ps. If they aren't spec'd for healing they are solely using the short fast one at most times anyway.

[Lugh]

My powertech has a freaking jetpack, so i wonder why we don't get a "jet speed" or something that "increases movement speed by x amount fo x seconds". Only makes sense to me apparently

 

You have several talents in each of your trees that do just that. Shocking I know.

 

AND they last longer than Force speed. Thanks for playing.

[shaidarlol]

I play a gunslinger. I probably shouldn't have gone far down talking about trooper commandos because I haven't researched their talent/skill trees nearly as much as the other classes. I will say though that at first glance, force speed is still much better than any of the things you listed there. Force speed is frankly insanely *********** good when there's so many things to hide behind and self heal. It's almost impossible to get killed in a 1vs1 if you're paying attention.

 

i will agree with you that force speed is indeed very powerful, but a sniper has an ability that completely nullifies this ability, so i believe arguing about how insane it is, is irrelevant.

[Lugh]

i will agree with you that force speed is indeed very powerful, but a sniper has an ability that completely nullifies this ability, so i believe arguing about how insane it is, is irrelevant.

 

but but my root doesn't do much damage! 11111!

 

*snicker* bads gotta be bad..

[dcgregorya]

i will agree with you that force speed is indeed very powerful, but a sniper has an ability that completely nullifies this ability, so i believe arguing about how insane it is, is irrelevant.

 

No they don't.

 

Leg shot? The way the game works by the time my leg shot flies over to you, you're 10+ feet away from when I shot it and can just CC break and keep running or get around a corner and get 2 heals off.

 

Trust me, I've been doing PVP for a few hundred hours. If I find a sorc that isn't awful and knows how to LOS, force speed and heal I just leave them alone until I can 2 man gank them down.

 

You don't know how many times I've hit leg shot as soon as a sorceror hits their speed buff only for them to be 50m away (well outside my range and usually across the line with the hutt ball) before the server alerts them to the fact that they are in fact rooted...

 

Only a sorceror player can post a message saying that being able to get a massive speed buff on a short cooldown as a ranged class with self healing doesn't pose any sort of issues whatsover...:rolleyes:

Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Dooger]

One archtype to rule them, and in the darkness...

 

Seriously sorc sage will get huge buffs shortly.

 

Why?

 

Every mmo needs a class or an arch type that allows crippled players to dominate at a high level. Its trivial to get 800k using 5-6 buttons with proper play and gear.

This margin allows very young, handicapped or ungeared players to come in and do ok or slightly above average.

 

Does it matter that it breaks the game, when good players in good gear play them? Bioware Mythic buffed DoKs in warhammer over and over, and the few players left on the remaining server are happy with it.

 

That kinda success should spill over here

Edited February 15, 2012 by Dooger

[Nyhmor]

My powertech has a freaking jetpack, so i wonder why we don't get a "jet speed" or something that "increases movement speed by x amount fo x seconds". Only makes sense to me apparently

 

Since when does shooting lightning from your fingers "make sense"?

or being able to use /dance function but not /poop?

a sci fi doesnt "make sense"....

[shaidarlol]

No they don't.

 

Leg shot? The way the game works by the time my leg shot flies over to you, you're 10+ feet away from when I shot it and can just CC break and keep running or get around a corner and get 2 heals off.

 

Trust me, I've been doing PVP for a few hundred hours. If I find a sorc that isn't awful and knows how to LOS, force speed and heal I just leave them alone until I can 2 man gank them down.

 

You don't know how many times I've hit leg shot as soon as a sorceror hits their speed buff only for them to be 50m away (well outside my range and usually across the line with the hutt ball) before the server alerts them to the fact that they are in fact rooted...

 

Only a sorceror player can post a message saying that being able to get a massive speed buff on a short cooldown as a ranged class with self healing doesn't pose any sort of issues whatsover...:rolleyes:

 

if the sorcerer has the foresight to know what you're going to do to counter that ability, that is player skill, not ability imbalance. if it is lag you are worried about then again it isn't ability imbalance. if a sorcerer chooses to dps you while he's close to an LOS is player skill.

 

even if this situation were to occur, remember you can always just run away if you find yourself in a disadvantaged position, no one is forcing you to stand there wait for them to heal and come back to fight you. i mean he is LOS of you healing right? what is stopping you from running away at this point other than your own choice?

 

how you can even argue at this point when i just pointed out how to counter said "overpowered" ability is just lack of player skill. i can easily say maybe there isn't LOS when he tries to run away. remember you can dictate where the fight starts.

[Sirolos]

Force speed for instance - why do they need it and why can't other classes have free 'get out of jail' cards? Why is their energy so easy to manage unlike marauders/GS/etc? Why can they talent for an additional stun that no one else can get?

 

I mean, let's assume sorceror/sage is not overpowered - why then are other classes like GS singled out to not receive any self heals or escape mechanisms? Because of 5 meters of extra range on some attacks?

 

I just don't understand the balance logic Bioware uses. They claim they have a model that is used to maintain balance but how does it account for utility abilities and what is it they see with other classes that shows them that sages/sorcs need force speed/self heal but other classes do not? They've already stated that the difference between light and medium armor is at most 5% so I'll go out on a limb and say that bubble more than surpasses that.

 

Not trying to QQ, just want to make some sense of what the line of thinking is.

 

Edited to add: After pages of replies, the bottom line answer is there is no justification or balance to it. Honestly, I gave this a shot at waiting for a response from Bioware but at what point and how many thousands of player posts do you guys want to take 5 minutes out of your day and let us know if this is something you plan on adjusting (potentially by buffing other classes) or if you have a decent reason for leaving it like it is?

 

1. An Assassin has just as much utility.

2. Sorcs/sages are light armor classes

3. Their damage isnt bursty like a GS or Merc at 50.

 

Vs a geared player a sorc will do very negligable damage, but A LOT of AoE instant cast damage.

 

 

if their damage was frontloaded like a Merc then I would also worry why their rescources are infinitely easy to manage..

 

Unfortunately it isnt.

 

 

marauders do get force camo. Its a form of escape for 5 seconds, you cant stun them either.

A sorc doesnt have the option to escape and be invis..a stun,root, or pull negates the entire effect.

 

http://youtu.be/ZA7YuWuIF-k

 

^ he explains a few more things..

 

Sorcs and Sages are not OP by any means..

 

Hybrid specs (speaking from their nerf to assassins) are not intended to be as widely played as they are.

[dcgregorya]

if the sorcerer has the foresight to know what you're going to do to counter that ability, that is player skill, not ability imbalance. if it is lag you are worried about then again it isn't ability imbalance. if a sorcerer chooses to dps you while he's close to an LOS is player skill.

 

even if this situation were to occur, remember you can always just run away if you find yourself in a disadvantaged position, no one is forcing you to stand there wait for them to heal and come back to fight you. i mean he is LOS of you healing right? what is stopping you from running away at this point other than your own choice?

 

how you can even argue at this point when i just pointed out how to counter said "overpowered" ability is just lack of player skill. i can easily say maybe there isn't LOS when he tries to run away. remember you can dictate where the fight starts.

 

How does a gunslinger dictate where the fight starts or avoid LOS in warzones? How is spamming force speed awesome skill? This situation occurs every warzone when I'm playing against skilled players - you probably wouldn't recognize it because you don't take advantage of this tactic yourself (and then come here and say the class is balanced as is - namely because you don't know how to play it).

 

1. An Assassin has just as much utility.

2. Sorcs/sages are light armor classes

3. Their damage isnt bursty like a GS or Merc at 50.

[/Quote]

 

1) Yeah, they do. I have priorities though.

2) So what? Their actual damage taken is less than medium or heavy armor thanks to bubble. Armor is irrelevent, all that matters is HP vs sustained damage. Bubble is better than heavy armor, let alone medium. They also get a built in 5% defense bonus.

3) Their damage is arguably more bursty than merc and for GS it depends on the specs and cooldowns. There's no denying that DPS sorc puts out fantastic DPS. Even bioware has stated that all DPS builds in the game are at greatest disparity of 10%.

Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Kyrandis]

One day Hybrid Sorc/Sage will be fixed. One day force speed will have a longer cooldown. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

3k bubble with 20s cooldown that can be spec'd to Mez on break. This ability can be casted on allies.

2 second Sprint

An AoE knockback that can be spec'd for a 5s root(that is reduced to 2s if damaged).

A 30m Stun

A 30m lift/whirlwind that can be talented to be without a cast.

A Reliable Slow

A Channeled slow that can be spec'd to have no cooldown.

A Single Target 2s root if talented

 

All of which are <1m cooldowns, and most of which are 30s or less cooldowns. And add the fact that if they do get away=Heal myself to full now. And the fact that they have the most forgiving resource.

 

OP? nah not at all. You can have my commando's 29% Kinetic/Energy damage reduction. Or my scoundrel's 23% for all of that.

 

This is my opinion, I do not care about your opinion of my opinion.

[onderest]

why not just make all classes exactly the same? i mean... than its balanced isnt that what we want? i agree atm it sux becouse classes are diffrent and got diffrent strenghts and waknesses, i dont get it how they could make it this way... dum peaple will be dumb forever i guess.

[Thatius]

what the heck kind of crack are you on.

 

Troopers have reactive shield(25% damage reduction for 12 seconds)

 

heals

 

a passive heal on recharge cells

 

a 1:30 second tenacity (everyone else has a 2 minute cooldown if you dont see how beneficial that is then I think you just don't understand game mechanics.)

 

Adrenaline rush (20% health regen over 10 seconds)

 

2 knock backs (shock strike and concussion charge)

 

 

not to mention 30-40% damage reduction just for having heavy armor HARD HITTING range attacks 2 INSTANT CAST 3K+ damage abilities

 

Seriously if my lvl 40 trooper can take out people 1v2 or 1v3 with cooldowns up you should have no problem against sages. Specially since I kill them with 4 grave rounds and a high impact bolt ( if that doesnt kill them then following that up with a demolition round bolt sure as hell will.)

 

I dare any sage/sorc to TRY and go shot for shot with my trooper you're going to lose.

 

*interrupts your grav round*

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the rest of your points over that spam, what are you going to do now? Moar Grav Rounds? Sorc will interrupt those too. On that note, why the hell are you using 4 Grav rounds when you can talent it to only take 3 for a full stack and honestly get 80% of the benefit with only 2?

 

I don't think I'd have any problems going shot for shot with you, on any of my characters.

[Cephim]

You don't need 31 points in a tree to have aoe knockback root or exploding bubble. In fact, it's part and parcel to every competent Sorc's hybrid dps spec.

 

But most Sorcs don't want you to know that.

 

NONONONONONONONO

 

That is way too much uncontrollable resolve for someone who PVPs to win.

[Valsdad]

why not just make all classes exactly the same? i mean... than its balanced isnt that what we want? i agree atm it sux becouse classes are diffrent and got diffrent strenghts and waknesses, i dont get it how they could make it this way... dum peaple will be dumb forever i guess.

 

I will spell this out slowly...

 

Sorc / Sage having more utility than all other classes does not equal diversity. It equals Sorc / Sage having more utility than other classes.

 

Seriously, learn what diversity actually means.

[onderest]

I will spell this out slowly...

 

Sorc / Sage having more utility than all other classes does not equal diversity. It equals Sorc / Sage having more utility than other classes.

 

Seriously, learn what diversity actually means.

 

i will to, they have moore utility becouse if they stand still and someone attack they die befoure they can do anything, so they got some tools to make up for that...

[Valsdad]

i will to, they have moore utility becouse if they stand still and someone attack they die befoure they can do anything, so they got some tools to make up for that...

 

How does that situation change for EVERY OTHER CLASS?

 

Is it the 3% difference between light and medium armor giving smuggler / agent their uber survival ability?