dcgregorya Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Force speed for instance - why do they need it and why can't other classes have free 'get out of jail' cards? Why is their energy so easy to manage unlike marauders/GS/etc? Why can they talent for an additional stun that no one else can get? I mean, let's assume sorceror/sage is not overpowered - why then are other classes like GS singled out to not receive any self heals or escape mechanisms? Because of 5 meters of extra range on some attacks? I just don't understand the balance logic Bioware uses. They claim they have a model that is used to maintain balance but how does it account for utility abilities and what is it they see with other classes that shows them that sages/sorcs need force speed/self heal but other classes do not? They've already stated that the difference between light and medium armor is at most 5% so I'll go out on a limb and say that bubble more than surpasses that. Not trying to QQ, just want to make some sense of what the line of thinking is. Edited to add: After pages of replies, the bottom line answer is there is no justification or balance to it. Honestly, I gave this a shot at waiting for a response from Bioware but at what point and how many thousands of player posts do you guys want to take 5 minutes out of your day and let us know if this is something you plan on adjusting (potentially by buffing other classes) or if you have a decent reason for leaving it like it is? Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) As it is, Sages\Sorcs get the most powerful and flexible baseline of all classes. However, their trees (relatively) suck, so it kind of balances this out. I do believe that some of that amazing utility needs to be moved into talents, however. As far as healing is concerned, I think that non-healing Sorcs\Sages should only get the expensive-and-fast heal (the one they get at level 10) and the shield. I'm actually fine with Speed, but Force Wake (root after knockback) needs to be moved further up the TK\lightning tree. It's not the separate abilities that make them strong - it's the crazy combination of everything together at once. Edited February 14, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 As it is, Sages\Sorcs get the most powerful and flexible baseline of all classes. However, their trees (relatively) suck, so it kind of balances this out. I do believe that some of that amazing utility needs to be moved into talents, however. Not sure what you mean, in what sense do their trees relatively suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Not sure what you mean, in what sense do their trees relatively suck? Top abilities need serious buff. Thats how they suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Top abilities need serious buff. Thats how they suck. Pretty much this. Edited February 14, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocNessMonster Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Top abilities need serious buff. Thats how they suck. Most classes can say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuffAlmighty Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 There resource compared to BH/Agent is pritty easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof-Chaos Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) When I play Sorc I always come to think of South Park, the episode where they play ninjas. Cartman: Hold on you guys. I actually have another power. I can see into the future too, but better than Kyle. Let me try it. Kyle: gosh darnit, Cartman! You can't keep making up new powers! Stan: Yeah dude, that's like the fifth power you've come up with! Cartman: I am Bulrog and I have lots and lots of powers. Kyle: No ******e! From now on you only get to have ONE power! So what is it?! Cartman: I have the power to have all the powers I want. Edited February 14, 2012 by Prof-Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Top abilities need serious buff. Thats how they suck. Compared to who/what? How does this impact their viability - how does this translate to a limitation? Edited to add : See - to me the fact that the entire talent tree doesn't rely on the last skill like most other classes have it set up is actually a buff. It makes hybrids viable and it makes power available to you at a lower level. If you go Dirty fighting, your entire tree is worthless until you get hemo blast, which is the very last talent. That means hybridizing this tree is mostly worthless. So if you're on par for healing and damage and utility, how is weak 31 point talents a bad thing? Isn't it actually a good thing? Edited February 14, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Still waiting for some kind of answer from the constant sorc/sage defenders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DestyOwn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Nothing is worse than the 31pt of the sniper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The top abilities do not suck overall. They suck for where they are placed in the tree. There are stronger ones below them. So there is no reason to top out when you can hybrid and get all the cookies. They need to swap the talents around and move the powerful talents that can be reached by hybrids higher in the trees. The heals are also redonkulous. They have a bunch of defensive, control, escape tools. The heals are over the top. They should get the bubble and that's it. Or the heals should have higher base costs with a cost reduction talent in the seer tree, tier two. But when you start with a base class that will end up as a ranged dps, a healer, a tank or a melee dps you can see already that they will end up with a ton of junk, lol. I rolled a sorc alt for ***** and giggles and it's like I'm Superman hanging out with Aqualad and Major Mapleleaf. Until they get some decent looking armor though I will stick with my Vanguard and Gunslinger. Looks trump viablity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Yeah but this fails to mention the insane utility. Force speed, pull ally to position, ranged interrupt, best AOE heal, snare on lightning, bubble pop stun, AOE root... I mean, its like they took every possible utility and gave it all to one class and said **** off to everyone else. Gunslinger has no speed buff or gap closer or stealth, no escape from fight mechanism (woo 5m of range), no pulls, push can only be done while in cover and the only dot snare isn't even in the dot talent tree. Why no love? What's the logic? 5m extra when the movement speed in the game is 6 meters per second? Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyrar Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yeah but this fails to mention the insane utility. Force speed, pull ally to position, ranged interrupt, best AOE heal, snare on lightning, bubble pop stun, AOE root... I mean, its like they took every possible utility and gave it all to one class and said **** off to everyone else. you can't have "best" aoe heal(i doubt it) together with the root skill on the knockback and the bubble stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) you can't have "best" aoe heal(i doubt it) together with the root skill on the knockback and the bubble stun I didn't say they had it all at the same time. If they go healer though, they have the best utility for a healer and if they go damage, they have the best utility for a damage class. At any given spec, they have the best utility in the game, though the individual utilities can change based on spec. You take a class and make it so that when they spec healer, they're the best healers and when they spec DPS, they're most versatile DPS and then cater them to any possible PVP scenario and then you flip the bird to half the other classes in the game. It makes no sense. Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephim Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Answer: 20% damage reduction! I find myself fairly active in Warzones when it comes to objectives, and this means I will probably die a lot. Fill my resolve bar in Huttball and watch out because I am probably going to pop every cooldown and carry for as long as I can hoping for a friendly to hand off to. I am going to get in your face with DoTs and AoE to keep you from capping my point on Alderaan, or bombing my door on Voidstar. All of this means I am probably going to die a lot. If you are QQ'ing about a Sorc/Sage who you couldn't kill because they popped a cooldown, then bubbled, and force sped away, then you are bad. You should realize that said Sorc/Sage is no longer helping their team (which I HOPE is your goal). If you want to cry about the survivability/utility of a Sorc in a purely combat situation then you should sit tight and wait until some sort of arena is introduced. All we have now is instanced, objective-based PVP. Sorc/Sage is the easiest class to kill OR scare off. Both should be acceptable options. But if you want to chase me all around the map while my other 7 teammates are scoring and capping, go ahead... Edited February 15, 2012 by Cephim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Not trying to QQ Regardless, you are. I'm so glad you created a new thread on this under-discussed topic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Regardless, you are. I'm so glad you created a new thread on this under-discussed topic though. I'm still waiting to hear when this is going to be adjusted or some sort of logic behind it. Problem is there is no logic to it, no one can defend it and yet there's no mention of it by Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyhmor Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 so... any of you even played a lvl50 sorc in a WZ? Yes we got skills so we can survive a bit longer but if you seriously cant kill or chase away a sorc you dont know how to play your character. We are a squishy class with considerably LOW dmg output. We dont crit 4k's in a row. We dont have a 1button spam class that hits 2500 non crit. As for our heals. the fast one has 1.5 casting time and heals **** while costs alot. The other has 3sec casting time heals quite well but more then enough time to get interrupted. Besides most of our stuns/roots are removed uppon dmg with conflicts with our DoT's. So to the point, without our root/stun/interrupt we are not even worth calling a class. So... go QQ another class ~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthGoriand Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 You do realize that force speed+bubble is our defensive cooldown right? Unlike nearly every other class that actually has a cd to pop when crap hits the fan, our best option is to cheese it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atkammoh Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 You guys should have seen this coming, it says right on this website for class descriptions. "Sages/Sorc are the most versatile class in the game." Sages/Sorc arent just FOTM classes, they are FOTG (G=game) and the developers even touted that, I dont understand why you are surprised about their versatility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 You do realize that force speed+bubble is our defensive cooldown right? Unlike nearly every other class that actually has a cd to pop when crap hits the fan, our best option is to cheese it... Gunslinger has the same. Minus the force speed and minus the ability to self heal. Commando has the same, minus the force speed. There are three types of escape mechanisms in the game currently - in combat cloak, damage immunity and speed buff. Snipers/GS get none. Commandos get none. Sage/Sorc gets speed buff. Tanks get damage immunity. Stealthers and marauders/sentinels get cloak. What logical person looks at this and says randomly that sages should get a speed buff and the other two ranged DPS classes shouldn't get anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 We are a squishy class with considerably LOW dmg output. Clearly sorcs are having issues with producing damage . Your other point about their stuns being mez's - that's the same for everyone's stuns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supercaptain Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I'm still waiting to hear when this is going to be adjusted or some sort of logic behind it. Problem is there is no logic to it, no one can defend it and yet there's no mention of it by Bioware. Why would they adjust it, the entire development team pretty much plays Sorc, of course they'll leave the field biased in their favor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Gunslinger has the same. Minus the force speed and minus the ability to self heal. Commando has the same, minus the force speed. There are three types of escape mechanisms in the game currently - in combat cloak, damage immunity and speed buff. Snipers/GS get none. Commandos get none. Sage/Sorc gets speed buff. Tanks get damage immunity. Stealthers and marauders/sentinels get cloak. What logical person looks at this and says randomly that sages should get a speed buff and the other two ranged DPS classes shouldn't get anything? snipers/gunslingers and commandos both have a shield that reduces damage by 20% for 15s for sniper/gunslinger on top of that it's for the entire team that stays in it. commando/merc have a personal 20% damage reduction cd for 12s. that is their oh crap button. every class has some sort of a massive defensive cd they can use, except for sorcerers. which is why we have more utility to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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