dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 snipers/gunslingers and commandos both have a shield that reduces damage by 20% for 15s for sniper/gunslinger on top of that it's for the entire team that stays in it. commando/merc have a personal 20% damage reduction cd for 12s. that is their oh crap button. every class has some sort of a massive defensive cd they can use, except for sorcerers. which is why we have more utility to escape. Commandos don't have that, first of all. Second, it's on a 3 minute (!) cooldown. Third, that's not an escape mechanism, it's a self root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredbull Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Oh dear god another one coming to the forums whining after a sorcerer probably smashed and dashed his face. Please, dude, learn to play your class, sorcerers are 3 hit KO classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Commandos don't have that, first of all. Second, it's on a 3 minute (!) cooldown. Third, that's not an escape mechanism, it's a self root. yes commandos have that, and theirs is 25% less damage taken, it's called reactive shield. while yes your oh crap button works differently, sorcerers do not get any type of flat damage reduction ability. the reason it's on a 3 minute cooldown is because it's that good...20% less damage taken for everyone that's inside that big shield? do you want no cd on that? and it's for 15s, do you have any idea how long that is in pvp? you are right it's not a escape mechanism, it's a survival mechanism. you don't have to escape if you kill the other guy right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) yes commandos have that, and theirs is 25% less damage taken, it's called reactive shield. while yes your oh crap button works differently, sorcerers do not get any type of flat damage reduction ability. the reason it's on a 3 minute cooldown is because it's that good...20% less damage taken for everyone that's inside that big shield? do you want no cd on that? and it's for 15s, do you have any idea how long that is in pvp? you are right it's not a escape mechanism, it's a survival mechanism. you don't have to escape if you kill the other guy right? Reactive shield is not a group shield (for some reason I thought you said 'group shield') and it's not nearly as good as being able to run away. I've never seen reactive shield or scrambling field keep anyone alive on the field because it doesn't mean anything when you're getting attacked whereas being able to run around a corner and heal is amazingly good in many, many situations. Plus it's on a ridiculously short cooldown... Just bubble with it's short debuff downtime is much better sustained damage reduction than heavy armor and reactive shield. Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) yes commandos have that, and theirs is 25% less damage taken, it's called reactive shield. while yes your oh crap button works differently, sorcerers do not get any type of flat damage reduction ability. the reason it's on a 3 minute cooldown is because it's that good...20% less damage taken for everyone that's inside that big shield? do you want no cd on that? and it's for 15s, do you have any idea how long that is in pvp? you are right it's not a escape mechanism, it's a survival mechanism. you don't have to escape if you kill the other guy right? Blocking 3k damage every 20 seconds is way, way, better than 25% damage reduction on a 2-3 minute cooldown. Assuming a Commando takes 16000 damage over 30 seconds, that 25% damage reduction is blocking 6000 damage (since it's a flat 25%). During the same period the Sorcerer is blocking 6000 damage, and while Reactive Shield is down in the next few fights, the Sorcerer is still bubbling. You could block what, 18k damage over 2 minutes with constant bubbles? And no, Heavy armor doesn't make up for the difference. Edited February 15, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They can talent for a LOT more than a single extra stun. Read my thread. I explain exactly how much CC a Sorcerer/Sage can have. Their utility is amazing and yes, they DO have an answer to every situation. They don't need to be nerfed to the ground but they do need tweaks, especially with their hybrid spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannomite Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They obviously weren't considering Huttball when they balanced classes. That's about the only real time I find them annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblazen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I'm still waiting to hear when this is going to be adjusted or some sort of logic behind it. Problem is there is no logic to it, no one can defend it and yet there's no mention of it by Bioware. There have been sevearal pvp "adjustments" since launch which gave BW plenty of opportunity to adjust sorcs if they needed to be. Conclusion, they don't need adjusting. Our end tier abilities suck so we hybrid for max utility which means we give up dps talents for it. The problem is a matter of proportion. You see tons of sorcs and lots of purple lightning which gets attention from the QQ'ers and thus the whining on the forums. I find people who know how to counter sorcs all the time and make my life difficult in WZ's. I guess the difference between them and those here are that they know how to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Reactive shield is not a group shield (for some reason I thought you said 'group shield') and it's not nearly as good as being able to run away. that is your opinion, and i told you why sorcerer's has such defensively utility. you don't have to agree with it, but thats' why different classes has different abilities. i mean how come you aren't complaining about marauder's cds? do you realize how many survival cds they have? it makes sorcerers survival cds a joke in comparison. the bottom line is, because of the way you have to play a sorc/sage you are required to use those utilities to maximize your damage, without them, it would become much much more difficult vs any melee class. and i also understand that snipers may seem a bit underpowered atm, while i think that may be true, i've seen a sniper on my server who does well in every warzone he plays. so i think the disparity between snipers and other classes aren't as great as many ppl believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I find people who know how to counter sorcs all the time and make my life difficult in WZ's. I guess the difference between them and those here are that they know how to play. Honestly, you don't know what difficult is because you're playing a class that has answers to everything. I can't imagine what you'd do if you were playing a class that doesn't have answers to everything (read - every other class in the game). Your failure to counter people is your own fault, because you actually have counters (IE, L2P)...I don't have counters, for me it's just do or die. See the difference? Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batslav Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 its for badies to have something to cry for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 There have been sevearal pvp "adjustments" since launch which gave BW plenty of opportunity to adjust sorcs if they needed to be. Conclusion, they don't need adjusting. Our end tier abilities suck so we hybrid for max utility which means we give up dps talents for it. The problem is a matter of proportion. You see tons of sorcs and lots of purple lightning which gets attention from the QQ'ers and thus the whining on the forums. I find people who know how to counter sorcs all the time and make my life difficult in WZ's. I guess the difference between them and those here are that they know how to play. I guess Sorcerers really should have just learned to play when Operatives were critting them for 7.5k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 that is your opinion, and i told you why sorcerer's has such defensively utility. It's an opinion if you're bad at math. It's a fact if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Blocking 3k damage every 20 seconds is way, way, better than 25% damage reduction on a 2-3 minute cooldown. Assuming a Commando takes 16000 damage over 30 seconds, that 25% damage reduction is blocking 6000 damage (since it's a flat 25%). During the same period the Sorcerer is blocking 6000 damage, and while Reactive Shield is down in the next few fights, the Sorcerer is still bubbling. You could block what, 18k damage over 2 minutes with constant bubbles? And no, Heavy armor doesn't make up for the difference. while i agree with your logic, but consider how long an actual pvp fight is, i guarantee you most of the time it does not last longer than 20s. the whole idea of a sorcerer's play style is to drag out the fight so they can reuse their short cds again, but seriously most fights never last longer than 20s, because either someone else joins to fight or 1 of the person dies. i can say maybe 25% of the time the sorc is able to drag out the fight and win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblazen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Honestly, you don't know what difficult is because you're playing a class that has answers to everything. I can't imagine what you'd do if you were playing a class that doesn't have answers to everything (read - every other class in the game). Your failure to counter people is your own fault, because you actually have counters (IE, L2P)...I don't have counters, for me it's just do or die. See the difference? I have 3 other alt's I only pvp level with anywhere from 14 to 39. I do so to understand all other classes because that's the most effective way to play, to learn the other classes and their counters through experience. I find other classes are actually easier to dps with. Sorc's do not have burst and get decent dmg from dots and aoe. PVP is about burst, I find pretty much all other classes are better at that. Also I seek out other sorcs/sages because I know how to counter them and yes I absolutely remove them from the battle. It's not difficult. It's about knowing counters, tendencies, CD management, positioning, etc, etc. But these are things most people don't consider. They see a shiny and they tunnel vision it. Nothing new, most gamers are terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's an opinion if you're bad at math. It's a fact if not. that's your rebuttal? seriously? i gave you points, on why, and you gave me this whole "fact" thing? c'mon man, i thought we had a discussion here, maybe i'm wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Bubbles and healing and force speed is better than reactive shield. Do you need me to paint you a diagram of this fact? It's not an opinion, it's just better. Bubble is blocking 3k damage every 20 seconds. Healing is well, healing. And the ability to disengage a fight and not die is 100x as good as 25% damage reduction which is only useful in a very limited number of close fights. Edited February 15, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblazen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I guess Sorcerers really should have just learned to play when Operatives were critting them for 7.5k. I personally had no issues with Ops and don't think they should have been nerfed. They are our counter by mechanic and thus should have an advantage over us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Gunslinger has the same. Minus the force speed and minus the ability to self heal. Commando has the same, minus the force speed. There are three types of escape mechanisms in the game currently - in combat cloak, damage immunity and speed buff. Snipers/GS get none. Commandos get none. Sage/Sorc gets speed buff. Tanks get damage immunity. Stealthers and marauders/sentinels get cloak. What logical person looks at this and says randomly that sages should get a speed buff and the other two ranged DPS classes shouldn't get anything? The sniper "escape" mechanism is an aoe knockback root. Oh wait. Sorcs get that too. And the exploding CC bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Bubbles and healing and force speed is better than reactive shield. Do you need me to paint you a diagram of this fact? It's not an opinion, it's just better. Bubble is blocking 3k damage every 20 seconds. Healing is well, healing. And the ability to disengage a fight and not die is 100x as good as 25% damage reduction which is only useful in a very limited number of close fights. you are comparing 3 things to 1, obviously 3 is better than 1, how is that logical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 you are comparing 3 things to 1, obviously 3 is better than 1, how is that logical? Because they're all defense mechanics with the objective of keeping you alive. The fact that you have three and commando has 1 doesn't help your 'balanced as is' point anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The sniper "escape" mechanism is an aoe knockback root. Oh wait. Sorcs get that too. And the exploding CC bubble. because the talented blind bubble affects ranged sniper right? everyone needs to stop making up situations where they are completely in the disadvantage to make their points valid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 because the talented blind bubble affects ranged sniper right? everyone needs to stop making up situations where they are completely in the disadvantage to make their points valid... Who says they're fighting a sniper? I certainly didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblazen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 because the talented blind bubble affects ranged sniper right? everyone needs to stop making up situations where they are completely in the disadvantage to make their points valid... Yeah it's funny how every sorc is 31/31/31 in everyone's mind. I tried to make it work but the game wouldn't let me. Game is broken.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaidarlol Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Who says they're fighting a sniper? I certainly didn't. well the thread is comparing a sniper to a sorc/sage, so i would assume that would be the comparison... but clearly i'm wrong here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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