MMO Vets, What do you think?

[Aristopantys]

What was the biggest change that Blizzard did to start the path to easy fights? One guess and it started a late in TBC

 

Getting rid of attunements was the beginning of the end. Not sure if that's what you were hinting at or not.

[Ansultares]

One guess and it started a late in TBC

Late BC? BC itself was that start.

[Gungan]

Late BC? BC itself was that start.

 

What exactly are you implying?

 

TBC was the hardest raiding WoW ever had.

[gummbo]

I like cheese.

 

Cathedral Extra mature is my favourite.

[Blavatsky]

What exactly are you implying?

 

TBC was the hardest raiding WoW ever had.

 

maybe it was a hard raiding game at one point.

 

But now its Pokemon and Pandas.

 

Right?

[PompusGermanicus]

Based on my experience, MMORPGs succeed or not based on identification with the character, and this is influenced by how much you can influence his/her/its looks. City of Villians EXCELLED in this. I like TOR, but all the agents look alike, and all the sith's inquisitors look alike, and all their pets look alike.

 

Great game, but if you would fix one thing, fix this -Eaon

[Blavatsky]

I like cheese.

 

Cathedral Extra mature is my favourite.

 

Muenster.

 

Thanks

[Ansultares]

Playing alone together, in other words.

 

It's basically what WoW's system has perfected. I think it does very much meet the needs of most of the players, because most players just want a quick in and out gaming experience in the limited time they have to play (vast majority of players have very limited play time). So the model of playing alone together is popular -- you are playing multiplayer, but in a very casual, easy-in/easy-out way. The vast majority of players do not want to take the time to socialize in a video game -- the people who were into that in the early MMOs were a self-selecting niche of people who had generally quite a bit of time on their hands and/or were virtual world enthusiasts. Most players today are just looking for a bit of fun and entertainment in a limited time frame in the evenings -- not to socialize or do a virtual world or anything of the sort. This is how it is today, because this is the market today. And so the games are set up (at least the successful ones are) to satisfy the needs of this market. It makes sense.

No.

 

This is the wrong conclusion to draw from WoW's success.

[lrage]

Getting rid of attunements was the beginning of the end. Not sure if that's what you were hinting at or not.

 

Attunements are a large part of it.

 

But it's also not the end or start of it. T11 was hard till Blizzard let people over-gear it and nerfed it.

 

There's a typical cycle in EQ. Certain Tiers are hard, and people break themselves on it, then new tier comes out and last tier is nerfed and new ways to overgear it are added. By then the hardcore players have moved on, the average raider gets to complete content they couldn't before, and 50% of the population is out collecting vanity pets anyways.

[Blavatsky]

Attunements are a large part of it.

 

But it's also not the end or start of it. T11 was hard till Blizzard let people over-gear it and nerfed it.

 

There's a typical cycle in EQ. Certain Tiers are hard, and people break themselves on it, then new tier comes out and last tier is nerfed and new ways to overgear it are added. By then the hardcore players have moved on, the average raider gets to complete content they couldn't before, and 50% of the population is out collecting vanity pets anyways.

 

EQ Raiding , planes of power through Darkhallow was probly my favorite.

 

SSRA was good to

 

Vex Thal sucked

[Chewpaco]

ROFL, so you flat out ignore people who played before you and tell you flat out these games existed and wer enot muds and then claim im alternate history?

 

Let me guess, according to you the Ford Model T car was not really a car because you were not alive or driving at the time!

 

The Wright brothers didnt invent the Airplane because you were not alive and didnt see it happen.

 

JFK assassination??? WTH are you talking about???

 

I dont care what some fan created WIKI says, Its FAN CREATED, its not fact, its based on most popular opinion. Surely you know this? I hope you know this!

 

There is a reason Wiki is not used in legal documents buddy

 

Look what I found, anouther Wiki on NWN AOL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_Gold ) and the OPENING LINE STATES....

 

 

 

So since you quoteing Wiki as die hard fact, then this also is die hard fact right?

Cant have it both ways

Either Wiki is with out fail and correct all the time or Wiki is fan created and nothing more then popular opinion thats mostly right but misses key specifics.

 

here is THE REALMS

 

http://www.realmserver.com/

 

Opening line of their page says

 

 

 

Fact is they are not the first but they are the current longest running as Original NWN shut down in '97 where as The Realms never did!

 

Here is the Wiki for Dark Sun Online - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun_Online

 

Its opening line reads

 

 

 

So please, tell me again about my revisionist history?

 

Just because you never played them doesnt mean they didnt exist and were not first

 

Just because your first 3 games were UO, EQ, AC, doesnt mean they created the genre or were EVER called the big 3.

 

Big 3 games are now

 

UO - first to break the 1000 online per server number

EQ - Defined modern Day MMORPGs (using previous concepts from NWN, The Realms, DSO, Meridian 59) and brought them to a new level utilizing the new age technology available

WOW - Grand master at MMORPG marketing bringing commercial success and acknowledgement never before seen in the MMORPG genre.

 

And for the record, anyone that knows me knows Im not a fan of UO and I HATE HATE HATE WOW, so for me to say this means its not my personal agenda at play, its simply the truth of the matter.

 

But hey, feel free to prove my links and facts and time line false as you claim I am doing revisionist history, the different independant pages are doing revisionist history, the players that played these games doing revisionist history, the copyrights and release dates doing revisionist history.

 

Everyone and their dog is wrong and you are right!

 

That about sum it up?

 

You again? So explain to me how something can be an MMORPG in 1991, when the term MMORPG wasn't even coined until 1997? Because that amazes me. Those games were their own class of games - call them whatever you want. They wern't MMORPG's.

 

Also - stop trying to compare 2D graphics games with first person 3D model. They are not the same. Every game we are talking about here post EQ - is 3D 1st person model

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/neverwinter-nights_/screenshots/gameShotId,215727/

 

Does that resemble a 3D MMORPG? Nope.

 

While this shot from UO is not 3D yet, or 1st person - it shows multiple people together on a 2D map.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/12/view/screens/display/423

 

What does this look like? I'll tell you what it looks like. What every MMORPG since has copied in some fashion. 1st person 3D gaming world.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/9/view/screens/display/11875

 

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Sorry - that doesn't work. Compare apples to apples please if you are going to discuss this with me any further.

 

Your analogies too about a car and a plane miss the fundemntal point. EVERYBODY accpets those ideas as facts. The car industry accepts that. The consumers accept that. I accept that. You accept that. What is your point about me being alive and not witnessing it - so it never happened?

 

Have I ever said those games you mentioned prior weren't internet based games with multi player cooperative options, set in a fantasy world? No - I don't act like they never existed. I simply state - how can they possibly be MMORPG's, when the term MMORPG wasn't even a term until 1997? How can you compare a model of game that every MMORPG uses today - 1st person 3D, with 2D games.

 

If you were going to buy a bicycle, had 10 bikes lined up next to eachother and comparing, would you through a motorcycle in there because it also had 2 wheels?

 

Apples to apples my friend. Not apples to oranges.

[Stoj]

Are you done yet? Again - Wiki clearly states that....

 

Try using wikipedia as a reference in any sort of scholarly essay.

[Limedust]

For Chewpaco--

 

The word "homosexual" wasn't used until sometime in the mid-to-late 19th century. Were guys not banging guys and girls not scissoring before that? Or were they not "homosexual" because that particular term wasn't invented?

 

Yours is actually an interesting philological position to take.

[Lord_Itharius]

I'm quitting, mostly because of poor performance and lackluster endgame content. I have no desire whatsoever to play these same boring raids on nightmare mode. No real gear grind in this game, just hand-me-out gear with no real value. I also don't feel the same sense of gear progression because I can't gauge my dps gains or theorycraft without combat parsing. Not to mention the game just feels boring, and there's no innovation.

 

You guys can ride this sinking ship a little longer. I have other games to play... other Bioware games, even. Bring on ME3. I'll come back to MMOs once GW2 comes out, and we'll see whether that game lives up to the hype.

[Hardin_Steele]

Leveling is waayyy too fast. I'm for a much slower leveling process, and level limits...after say, level 20 you should only be able to gain one level per day. Then the content locusts would level at the same rate as the more casual player.

 

Crafting gains are waayyy too fast. Since when is it an automatic gain for each gather, craft or mission? Most all of them are "Do it and get a gain." Even casual crafting gets you close to 400 by level 50.

 

The Heroics are tough, and good on 'em for making the Heroics tough. A few of the Bonus Missions are tough and require a group (or if not able to find a group, level more and come back, but not as rewarding).

 

Apparently everyone feels entitled to insta-gains in level, crafting, elite gear, awesome mounts, higher reputation, higher ranks....everything. It would be nice for gains to be rare, levels hard earned, gear really tough to come by (and even nicer if everyone at end game didn't all have the same gear....a horrible problem in WoW and several other gear based games). Make some gear ultra rare so there are only a few items of that type per server with wearout rates so they are eventually destroyed and a different player can get that item.

 

Clones at level 50 will be a problem as long as levels and gear are easy to come by, and the game is based largely on gear.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Hardin_Steele

[grueber]

All the content is trivialized. Everyone levels so fast there is little to play for once you finish your class storyline.

 

The world design makes replaying an alt incredibly repetitive. Switching sides does little to improve it as only Dromand Kaas/Coruscant and the starter world provide a unique setting. Everything else is the same.

 

The worlds are half to mostly empty. It's a combination of poor design in leveling, crafting, and no compelling reason to revisit any of the worlds once your done. Sorry datacrons don't cut it.

[Kalfear]

*false recreation of history*

 

Apples to apples my friend. Not apples to oranges.

 

LOL, you have no clue do you?

 

Listen buddy, you have no clue what your speaking of.

You really dont.

 

This is why I hate the internet, every kid thinks cause they played something it was first.

 

I didnt read or click on your links because they are meaningless

 

FACT : NWN released 1991 on AOL, 7 full years before UO was even mentioned.

 

FACT : It was a MMORPG, I honestly forget what they called them back then (not MUDs, those something vastly different if you actually played any and knew what you were speaking on) but it is what it is no matter what you call it.

 

FACT: (as so clearly demonstrated by above posters) It doesnt matter when a term is created, all that matters is the meaning of the term and by the meaning

 

NWN on AOL

The Realms

Dark Sun Online

Meridian 59

Twilight Land

 

All were MMORPGs BEFORE UO hit the scene

 

FACT : Only people that thought AC was a big important title were long term AC players (much like SWG players who refuse to this day to admit the released financials of a 70% subscription cancelation with in first month of activation didnt happen).

 

When your #3 in a crowd of 3, your LAST, not 3rd.

 

FACT : You will never admit your wrong because you here to argue and mislead and not at all interested in the turth!

 

FACT : delude yourself all you want, everyone in this thread sees your claims for what they are about the history of MMORPGs and their creation.

 

FACT : I dont need to make any more linking to try and prove my stance. Everyone knows its just the truth. And the Truth doesnt change no matter what you call it or how you word it!

 

Have a nice day!

Im sure more meaningless links coming.

[FlightSergeant]

I agree about the leveling being way too fast. Crap crafting, crap end game content. No innovation in game play or anything. The only thing that sets TOR apart from others is the storyline. It's pretty sad when they spent all that time and money on a game that is not anything even close to as long lasting and enjoyable as SWG pre NGE.

 

My brother is going to cancel his subscription soon and I will too. Maybe we will come back in 6 months or something. Bioware must be either worried about losing subscriptions or they are losing them. Why else are they sending out emails to people asking for feedback? I got mine a few days ago and responded with a lengthy reply.

[Darth_Grissom]

I have been playing MMORPG's for 15 years Straight, meaning no breaks were taken or anything. I play around 5 hours a day.

 

I love the game and while the ganre has been adapting throughout the years so has my personal life. I am now married andh ave twin boys that are 2 years old. The wife loves the game as well although she only has 5 years of experience.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Darth_Grissom

[CulannHS]

Because they did what the casuals wanted. Blizzard is a bunch of money hungry (bleeps) also so they would take the money.

 

It was the casuals asking demamding threatening whatever you want to call it to have these things in the game that would make it worse. Blizzard didnt just come out one day and say lefts lift attunements or lets add a 10 man hardmode. That was the casuals wanting to get what others have without having to do the same things (that be playing the game).

 

Gotta agree with you on this. I am going to point out tho that Blizzard had a choice, and knowing the phenomenon that WoW was, went ahead and did it.

 

This is going to be a terrible analogy so my apologies in advance. Please kind of look past the specifics to the concept. What it's like is putting a sedative that causes apathy and suicide in the water because the population is complaining about crime.

 

The water is medium that it's spread with, just like WoW spread the rampant stupidity, rudeness, and asinine behavoirs we see in so many MMOs OUTSIDE of WoW now. The casuals (read: population) wanted all these nonsensical and foolish things and Blizzard, being the .50 cal equivalent of morons, herp-derped and put them right in without a second thought as to the ramifications to their own game or anything or anyone else.

 

Hence, why I said it's WoW pretty much. I agree there's other factors but WoW being the phenomenon it is, was the carrier that spread the issues in question so widely.

[Kaelshi]

All the content is trivialized. Everyone levels so fast there is little to play for once you finish your class storyline.

 

The world design makes replaying an alt incredibly repetitive. Switching sides does little to improve it as only Dromand Kaas/Coruscant and the starter world provide a unique setting. Everything else is the same.

 

The worlds are half to mostly empty. It's a combination of poor design in leveling, crafting, and no compelling reason to revisit any of the worlds once your done. Sorry datacrons don't cut it.

 

I disagree with all of this.

 

I enjoy the end-game. I think the worlds are unique and I enjoy exploring them. My server has plenty of people.

 

I don't level to fast and if I am higher level than a recomendation it's not like the game is significantly easier and with the good story telling I enjoy the quests.

[Aisar]

Been playing MMOs since I was 12 (I turned 25 two days ago) and I can honestly say this MMO is garbage. I just switched to EQ2 four days ago, omg what a difference.

 

I honestly can't stomach this MMO after playing so many others and seeing what a good MMO has and what it looks like. I just can't justify paying for this game when EQ2 is amazing in comparison and has 1000x the content and stuff to do. Frankly I don't really see how i could ever play all 20 races and classes and all the crafting professions and..yeah it's awesome. And the cities actually look like real, full cities bustling with people and activity.

 

it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

Edited February 18, 2012 by Aisar

[mbhosler]

Reminds me of the Tabula Rasa situation. The game was a great idea, however there were too many bugs upon launch and it never recovered from the wreckage. I miss that game more than I enjoy playing this one. Edited February 18, 2012 by mbhosler

[Lasarith]

I have played quite a few MMO's over the years and I just wanted to throw my opinion out there and discuss any agreements or disagreements about swtor.

 

Not being one for story in a mmo (click, click, just give me the quest already), I will have to say that the class quests in this game has me hooked! As an alt-aholic this gives me giddy waves of joy!! Once I hit lvl cap and can't find anything to do, well start an alt and watch his story unfold... I like it. This game has the best (imo) story mode of any mmo (and a few single player games) that I have played.

 

I have noticed a trend in MMO's lately that didn't start with this game, but is certainly prevalent. Solo-ability to cap and as quick as possible. At the rate i'm going I will probably hit my cap before I get charged for my first month. This is a double edged sword for me. Sure I like that I don't HAVE to group to level up, and with this type of system the grind is almost eleminated. But for a subscription based service, I don't know if I will spend the wow like amount of time at the endgame, grinding out the same raids, pvp, or dailies for new gear and such. One of my favorite mmo's is EQ2 (and please this is an opinion, so lets not make this a discussion on how much SOE sucks), and, to me, the journey is as fun as the endgame. Subscribing to that game wasn't a bother to me, because I felt like I was getting the most time out of my money. It would take months for even some hardcore players to get to cap (I am talking the early days, takes a lot less time now).

 

I like the crafting system. I have played everything from active crafting (eq2) where you actually have to pay attention to what your doing, and find creative ways not to fall asleep at the keyboard, passive crafting (aion was good for this) where you just load up on mats and let your character craft while you do the laundry. There are more games I have played, but those seem like the two extreams (and dont even talk to me about vanguard lol). This system seems to have the nice balance of getting stuff done crafting wise, while your character can still do stuff on his own... To me that strikes a good balance.

 

Thats all I have now, but I am still just a few days in the game, what else do the Vets think? If you disagree thats fine, but keep the flames at a minimum. These are just some opinions I have developed so far.

 

Leveling (Apart from my First) is Getting faster and faster Every Next game- by the next ill level in days, (where it took 3 years to get fom 1-100 miss that)

 

Crafting is getting better Though - haveing to manually Pick each mat put in amount and right click drag to the crafting (loom)(2 leather+ 2 wood) to make 200+ pairs of shoes for a 0.1 skill (260 for fail rate) Needding tens of Thousands of mats and RSI -I Dont miss.

 

( though you Did have a helthy respect for Thouse that have 200.0 skill as you knew how Much Work and time they had to Have put in to get that skill!!!!!

Edited February 18, 2012 by Lasarith

[wifeaggro]

Been playing MMOs since I was 12 (I turned 25 two days ago) and I can honestly say this MMO is garbage. I just switched to EQ2 four days ago, omg what a difference.

 

I honestly can't stomach this MMO after playing so many others and seeing what a good MMO has and what it looks like. I just can't justify paying for this game when EQ2 is amazing in comparison and has 1000x the content and stuff to do. Frankly I don't really see how i could ever play all 20 races and classes and all the crafting professions and..yeah it's awesome. And the cities actually look like real, full cities bustling with people and activity.

 

it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

EQ2 was a very indepth game it has complexity to it. Many did not like the complexity at launch. But from the stand point of being a game with alot of content for end game it did not have that at launch. It did have some massive single group dungeons that to this day MMO's have not tried to replicate. But raid zones were just closets of off other zones you stepped into and tried to kill a massive raid mob. the thing it did do was add content rapidly . very rapidly. it increased lvl cap and had a full blown expansion 6 months after launch.

For a veteran MMO player it had a lot of features to keep you busy and really supported guilds with its content. EQ2 is a classic and i played it longer then any other MMO and my sub cycles were 6 months at a time. It was not friendly to a new player though it was hard and complex most just played WOW