MMO Vets, What do you think?

[Kaelshi]

There is probably some truth to that. I think we may be recycling a lot of older players and not bringing on enough new players. I'm surprised to find out most of the folks in the guilds I've come into contact with are in their 30's and 40's.

 

my guess is this is the same reason, in a way at least, that I run into most ppl that age.

 

I'm 30 and started a guild specifically for my age group and above. We have some in their teens and 20's but very very few, average age is well over 30.

 

It's because I will never again be in a guild with majority college-aged kids or young 20 year olds. We have almost nothing in common and I do not enjoy their company.

 

My guess is if I was 20 that I would run into a lot more 20 year olds and never have much contact with 30 year olds.

[Saitada]

I think the game is far far far to easy. In fact, I would venture to suggest that your average 8 year old could play this game with little or no difficulty.

 

Not real pleased with how easy and how fast you can level in this game. In my personal opinion, nobody should be remotely close to cap yet. The fact that a significant number of the population made cap within a few days of release, and more casual players made cap not long after... just proves this game is MMO Pablum on easy mode.

 

The developers forgot that an MMO is far more the Journey, than it is the destination, and they designed this game so you could reach the destination w/o really putting in any effort into the journey to get there.

 

Just not happy at this point. I'm still willing to give BW a chance. 6 months, maybe a year max. If things don't improve drastically by then. My wallet closes.

[Saitada]

It's called evolution.

 

Change is painful for some.

 

In this case, I would call it DE-evolution. And yeah, that kind of change IS painful to watch. It means humanity is getting dumber or lazier or both.

[Emeda]

So what are you suggesting? A private company that, like all private companies, have a goal of turning a profit should cater to a small group of people and make considerably less money when it is proven they can cater to a much larger crowd and make a bigger profit while making the enjoyable for MORE people than that small subset of hardcores?

 

Other games can do this because they cant compete with WoW and would lose money doing so - they HAVE to cater to hardcores. You ask any developer of any other MMO if they would prefer to have their smaller playerbase or if given the choice make the game more accessible to casuals and make hundreds of millions of more in profits?

 

They just CANT because of WoW's success. If EvE Online tried to cater to a casual playerbase they would lose much of their hardcore base and be left with bankruptcy. If they thought for a second they could turn a bigger profit they would.

 

Not sure why you seem to have a problem with that.

 

I never said cater to anyone. But you think a game has to cater to someone or else it cant make money. IF they made a game for everyone then everyone would play and then they would make even more money.

 

Destroying a game to keep a casual players happy while in the process make you lose the hardcore players and in the end make you lose the casual players you are wanting to keep doesnt make you money.

[Chewpaco]

oh god

 

please enlighten us I would love to hear this.

 

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

[RycheMykola]

lol

WoW was designed from the get go to be an easy access ungriding mmo. Before Cata came out there was an article in PC gamer a UK gaming mag with one the devs and i beveled he said they would have made it much more casual friendly and even said Arena was a mistake.

 

If you were playing WoW hard core you were maybe do in it wrong.

I don't think you played WOW to be quite honest.

 

Vanilla PVP gear was not grinding? Playing for 20 hours a day for several weeks I would say is a grind.

 

Even the current PVP gear system is a grind. Then, after you do get all your gear, there is an update with all new gear thats slightly better. Repeat the process!

[Kaelshi]

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

 

How old are you? Which MMO's are you referring to? Most of what you said is not true of the early mmo's - many of them did not even include half of what you're talking about.

 

This is why I wanted to hear this - I may or may not be older than you but I've clearly played mmo's at a time well before you did.

 

To me ninja-looting was "originally" when someone who did not even fight the mob you just killed ran along and looted everything - because that was possible in the early mmo's.

 

Kill-stealing was a term because you only got credit if you landed the killing blow on the mob - early on there were people notorious for hiding out, because you maps were not mini-maps you had to hit a key and bring them up, and running up on tougher mobs and getting the final blow.

 

Raiding did not exist - in the games where raiding the size you suggest did exist - those games failed, and most of the mmiserably.

 

Early mmo's did not really have quests like you talked about.

 

So I suppose the question I was "belitting" him with as you stated is this - Who are the "true" mmo players? Someone like me who had to deal with an entire level loss if you were killed, thus having to redo- an entire level of gameplay just from a single death because there was no graveyards etc. Not to mention you lost every single piece of inventory you had on your person if you died. Random Pking was harder and more dangerous, but a heck of a lot more profitable.

 

Or someone like you, who clearly must have started playing around MAYBE EQ or DAOC, YEARS after MMO's first came on the scene and who us "early" players were belittling as whiny kids who wanted everything handed to them.

[Chewpaco]

How old are you? Which MMO's are you referring to? Most of what you said is not true of the early mmo's - many of them did not even include half of what you're talking about.

 

This is why I wanted to hear this - I may or may not be older than you but I've clearly played mmo's at a time well before you did.

 

To me ninja-looting was "originally" when someone who did not even fight the mob you just killed ran along and looted everything - because that was possible in the early mmo's.

 

Kill-stealing was a term because you only got credit if you landed the killing blow on the mob - early on there were people notorious for hiding out, because you maps were not mini-maps you had to hit a key and bring them up, and running up on tougher mobs and getting the final blow.

 

Raiding did not exist - in the games where raiding the size you suggest did exist - those games failed, and most of the mmiserably.

 

Early mmo's did not really have quests like you talked about.

 

So I suppose the question I was "belitting" him with as you stated is this - Who are the "true" mmo players? Someone like me who had to deal with an entire level loss if you were killed, thus having to redo- an entire level of gameplay just from a single death because there was no graveyards etc. Not to mention you lost every single piece of inventory you had on your person if you died. Random Pking was harder and more dangerous, but a heck of a lot more profitable.

 

Or someone like you, who clearly must have started playing around MAYBE EQ or DAOC, YEARS after MMO's first came on the scene and who us "early" players were belittling as whiny kids who wanted everything handed to them.

 

Wikipedia:

 

The term MMORPG was coined by Richard Garriott, the creator of Ultima Online, in 1997.[18] The term probably derives from "MMOG", which can be traced back to the 1995 E3 Convention, when Dale Addink used it to describe Confirmed Kill

 

In 1999, following Ultima Online and EverQuest, was another hit, Asheron's Call. Together, these three games are sometimes referred to as the original "big three" of the late 1990s.

 

Everything prior was considered a MUD. Yes, I have been playing MMORPG's since 1998. I am talking about large scale, internet based, 3D games. Your MUD's were 2D and not MMORPG's.

 

Yes - I started on UO - but very little. Bought EQ as it was released and have been playing ever since.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Chewpaco

[Amelyssan]

My thoughts are in the link in my sig (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=216855). To that post, add this:

 

- No day/night cycle

- No swimming

- No housing

- No Pazaak, Sabacc, Dejarik, races, casino, etc...

- Dumbed down character creation

- No post-creation character customization

- No appearance tab/outfit system

- No high res textures

- No environmental interaction (chairs, walls, doors, etc...)

- Simple combat with static enemies

- Unconvincing and stiff animations

- Empty dead worlds with not enough NPCs moving around

- No collision detection

- No stats on resources

- No crafting customization

- Restriction in choice of starship

- No ship decoration

- Dumbed down space combat

- No multiplayer space combat

- Removal of many races

- No faction change/neutrality

- Restriction and instanced planets by faction

- Less planets than announced

- Planets rated by levels with no reason to go back

- No GM events

- Removal of choice to kill companion

- Removal of possibility to talk to other faction at all times

- No RP tools

- Nothing to do post-story

- Endgame consisting on waiting in fleet

 

 

and your list isnt even a fraction of wht still lacks...take pvp?

 

good points. And no, this is not acceptable for a p2p game at launch...

[OldBenSmokin]

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

 

I love it when I'm on the side of the guy with the well thought out rebuttal.

Edited February 13, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Kaelshi]

Wikipedia:

 

The term MMORPG was coined by Richard Garriott, the creator of Ultima Online, in 1997.[18] The term probably derives from "MMOG", which can be traced back to the 1995 E3 Convention, when Dale Addink used it to describe Confirmed Kill

 

Everything prior was considered a MUD. Yes, I have been playing MMORPG's since 1998. I am talking about large scale, internet based, 3D games. Your MUD's were 2D and not MMORPG's.

 

Yes - I started on UO - but very little. Bought EQ as it was released and have been playing ever since.

 

thats funny

[gurugeorge]

I have played quite a few MMO's over the years and I just wanted to throw my opinion out there and discuss any agreements or disagreements about swtor.

 

Not being one for story in a mmo (click, click, just give me the quest already), I will have to say that the class quests in this game has me hooked! As an alt-aholic this gives me giddy waves of joy!! Once I hit lvl cap and can't find anything to do, well start an alt and watch his story unfold... I like it. This game has the best (imo) story mode of any mmo (and a few single player games) that I have played.

 

I have noticed a trend in MMO's lately that didn't start with this game, but is certainly prevalent. Solo-ability to cap and as quick as possible. At the rate i'm going I will probably hit my cap before I get charged for my first month. This is a double edged sword for me. Sure I like that I don't HAVE to group to level up, and with this type of system the grind is almost eleminated. But for a subscription based service, I don't know if I will spend the wow like amount of time at the endgame, grinding out the same raids, pvp, or dailies for new gear and such. One of my favorite mmo's is EQ2 (and please this is an opinion, so lets not make this a discussion on how much SOE sucks), and, to me, the journey is as fun as the endgame. Subscribing to that game wasn't a bother to me, because I felt like I was getting the most time out of my money. It would take months for even some hardcore players to get to cap (I am talking the early days, takes a lot less time now).

 

I like the crafting system. I have played everything from active crafting (eq2) where you actually have to pay attention to what your doing, and find creative ways not to fall asleep at the keyboard, passive crafting (aion was good for this) where you just load up on mats and let your character craft while you do the laundry. There are more games I have played, but those seem like the two extreams (and dont even talk to me about vanguard lol). This system seems to have the nice balance of getting stuff done crafting wise, while your character can still do stuff on his own... To me that strikes a good balance.

 

Thats all I have now, but I am still just a few days in the game, what else do the Vets think? If you disagree thats fine, but keep the flames at a minimum. These are just some opinions I have developed so far.

 

I pretty much agree with you actually.

 

I think there are several kinds of MMO vets, and they fall more or less into the Bartle types (or similar classifications), and I think if you're more into MMOs for immersion, then there are some strong plusses as well as minuses to SWTOR. The minus for immersion is of course lack of open world feel and lack of true exploration. OTOH, if you're into immersion in the sense of story, then SWTOR is pretty special and really scratches an itch you never knew you had (as it were).

 

Particularly the grouped dialogue experience, I'm finding, is actually much more powerful than you'd think just reading about it ("VO, ho-hum")

[Kaelshi]

I love it when I'm on the side of the guy with the well thought out rebuttal.

 

Based on your screen-name you suffer the blow to credibility he does.

 

His list of "true" mmo players is based on his experience at what he considered to be the beginning of MMO's(which is of course based on the coining of a phrase). Considering a lot of stuff he mentioned was not even in the first game he mentioned he played(UO) at launch and for a very long time after it begs the question - so did True MMO players not start playing MMO's until the latter half of UO's P2P and the launch of Everquest?

 

So what would you call the players before then? the pre-true-mmo players?

 

It's a stupid term - it's akin to when fans of a sport call themselves the "true" fans(think traditionalists in baseball who say anyone who does not agree with them are not "true" baseball fans)

 

His concerns, and the guy before him, are based on solely what THEY like and care about and are concerned with. It does not make them any "truer" of an mmo player than someone who plays 2 hours a week and has never been on a single dungeon or raid.

 

what is even worse in this whole discussion is that the games he calls the first mmo's are all second generation MMO's - people like him did not play the first generation mmo's. They started to become increasingly popular during/after UO because designers started to make them much EASIER than the early generation.

 

A few examples

 

Towns were more or less safe in UO early on with the threat of Guards - early gen MMO's typically had open PvP in all but the smallest of areas( an inn of a town might be a safe zone, maybe).

 

UO Had banks where you could store stuff - the early gens did not. You carried everything you owned, money all, and it was all lootable.

 

Early gen mmo's had no quests to speak of. Grinding was the only way to level/get money/gear etc.

 

I'm not talking about MUD's btw. We are talking about the earliest generation of graphic based games. Wikipedia may say the phrase was coined with UO and since you like them so much

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

 

here is one of the earliest MMO's - funny how MMO's weren't actually around until UO and EQ but wiki is calling this game an MMO? interesting.

 

M59 was out over a year before UO you late-coming hack loser fake-mmo player.

 

 

*edit*

 

You could not even JUMP in Meridian59 - that feature that your fair-weather players enjoy so much was not a feature us "true" mmo players had.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Kaelshi

[Zannis]

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

 

1. You must be talking about Everquest. I leveled my first WoW toon to 60 in 2004-early 2005 without a guild. I never grouped, I had never played an MMO before and 'didn't get it', so your claim that grinding to max level solo as being something 'new' to MMO's doesn't hold water.

 

2. Finding a needle in a haystack might be a compelling gameplay mechanic for you, but most of us find 'Where's Waldo' to be a bit boring. Being told to find a vague object in the game world with no clues where they might be is terrible.

 

I could see this being feasible if we could keep an unlimited number of quests in our log, but that isn't the case. With only 25 quests at a time, I don't need some quest sitting there for a year.

 

3. My favorite argument, the 'it's raining purples!' qq. MMO's have always given gear as a gameplay reward. Just because everything we were given back then was a 'green' and everything we are being given today is a 'blue or purple' is pure semantics. The content will be balanced around the gear you are given, whether it's green or purple.

 

There has NEVER been a time in MMO history where gear wasn't the reward for beating new content. The only thing that's changed is the color.

 

4. I've done 40 man raids, and I've done 8 man raids here is TOR. It felt just as 'epic' in my opinion. I don't spend my time in combat looking at my group in the background, I spend my time paying attention to fight mechanics.

 

The real 'epic' flavor in an operation (raid) comes from level design, not the number of players. Using Wow as an example, Trial of the Crusader was a poorly designed raid, literally a single room with no trash. I'll take 10 people in Ulduar (considered one of WoW's best) over 25 people in Trial any day.

 

5 & 5a. These are the only things I agree with. No cross-server LFG please, keep LFG server only. Yes, it leads to longer queues, but reputations and communities remain intact.

 

As for all of us 'fake MMO' players, our money is real, and we outnumber you guys by quite a bit. Do the math.

[MadCuzBad]

1. Player cities with player housing

 

2. Space combat using Rebel and Imperial ships (Tie fighter, X-Wing fighters)

 

3. Chat bubbles

 

4. A non combat proff AKA entertainers (for people who like MMOs without combat)

 

5. Allow anyone to pick any proff and then after that determine if they are going imperial or rebel with the toon

 

6. Eliminate the whole entire companion program and then add in crafting only proff

 

7. Besides harvesting impliment a struture based harvesting system on all planets.

 

8. Eliminate these zones. Open the whole world map up at one time rather then partitioning it up in 30 differant zones.

 

9. Allow both imperial and rebels to communicate with eachother all the time.

 

10. Allow flashpoints and instances to join a que with eachother (like PVP is) at anytime for easy group forming.

 

11. Server mergers immediatly! Do not wait untill people ragequit.

 

12. Turn the graphics up. I an not believe the lack of eye candy on a game realeased in 2012.

 

13. Add about 15 more PVP instances. Same 3 get boring after about 1 week.

 

14. Add alot more sandboxy things. You should have everything you currently have plus a whole lot more sandboxy things in this game.

 

15. Start dumping things in this game like crazy. People are leaving already from bordom. Dump, dump and again I say dump stuff in this game like wild fire!

[gtmach]

Well the story is what sets this MMO apart from those in the past and this game gets an A+ for that in my book.

 

As far as the other conventions go:

 

Crafting is really well done. It's always been a grind for me in other MMOs so I appreciate how they finally were able to take that aspect out in this.

 

Huttball is probably the best PvP mode I've ever played. The other 2 warzones are just like so many other battlegrounds I've played before with players capturing nodes and just diverting/prioritizing forces.

 

I do consider having "instancing" of servers a negative since it doesn't feel like you're playing with many others.

 

I love having my own starship but the space combat is a definitely a negative.

 

I'm taking my time to get to the endgame since I hear the majority of complaints deal with a lack of content. Other complaints I see deal with really minor issues.

 

Aside from endgame, most of the other complaints I see are rather nitpicky, minor issues. Day/night cycles are nothing I lose sleep over. I really don't see the point of a player house when we have the starships. Sure that means starships need to be beefed up more but I can see that happening further down the road. You gotta admire the fact that at least we have these starships. WoW had no player housing whatsoever.

 

As is, this game is a lot of fun for me to play. Of course I'm just enjoying the content that's here rather than be nitpicky about the sun not going down

 

All other MMOs I've played let story be this background from which you level your character in. This is the first time I'm playing one where my character not only actively participates in the story, but also affects the outcome through choices. That's revolutionary for MMOs and I praise BW for this.

[TheRainstater]

I normally don't post here. Too busy having fun in game. (Shrugs)

 

I agree with the OP

[Waypoc]

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

 

This was awesome. Real adventure. Real Mystery. Real Questing. Real Exploration. Real Community.

 

Let's raise a million bucks or so and write one.

[Chewpaco]

Based on your screen-name you suffer the blow to credibility he does.

 

His list of "true" mmo players is based on his experience at what he considered to be the beginning of MMO's(which is of course based on the coining of a phrase). Considering a lot of stuff he mentioned was not even in the first game he mentioned he played(UO) at launch and for a very long time after it begs the question - so did True MMO players not start playing MMO's until the latter half of UO's P2P and the launch of Everquest?

 

So what would you call the players before then? the pre-true-mmo players?

 

It's a stupid term - it's akin to when fans of a sport call themselves the "true" fans(think traditionalists in baseball who say anyone who does not agree with them are not "true" baseball fans)

 

His concerns, and the guy before him, are based on solely what THEY like and care about and are concerned with. It does not make them any "truer" of an mmo player than someone who plays 2 hours a week and has never been on a single dungeon or raid.

 

what is even worse in this whole discussion is that the games he calls the first mmo's are all second generation MMO's - people like him did not play the first generation mmo's. They started to become increasingly popular during/after UO because designers started to make them much EASIER than the early generation.

 

A few examples

 

Towns were more or less safe in UO early on with the threat of Guards - early gen MMO's typically had open PvP in all but the smallest of areas( an inn of a town might be a safe zone, maybe).

 

UO Had banks where you could store stuff - the early gens did not. You carried everything you owned, money all, and it was all lootable.

 

Early gen mmo's had no quests to speak of. Grinding was the only way to level/get money/gear etc.

 

I'm not talking about MUD's btw. We are talking about the earliest generation of graphic based games. Wikipedia may say the phrase was coined with UO and since you like them so much

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

 

here is one of the earliest MMO's - funny how MMO's weren't actually around until UO and EQ but wiki is calling this game an MMO? interesting.

 

M59 was out over a year before UO you late-coming hack loser fake-mmo player.

 

 

*edit*

 

You could not even JUMP in Meridian59 - that feature that your fair-weather players enjoy so much was not a feature us "true" mmo players had.

 

The fact still remains, as I stated, that UO, EQ, and AC are considered in the industry as the founding 3. I didn't appoint them the founding 3 - so don't blame me. The gaming industry and the consumers consider those 3 games the "Founding 3".

 

No need to lecture me about when the start of the MMORPG era began - I have Wiki on my side. You have - well your thoughts. While i do not discredit what you are saying, you may in fact be correct about those prior titles that you mentioned. However, the fact still remains - UO, EQ, AC = Founding 3.

 

So seeing that it is generally accepted as truth by everyone apparently but you, that UO, EQ and AC are the Founding 3 of the MMORPG era/explosion - let's stick to that time frame when we talk about the first MMORPG's.

 

Then - everything I stated in my long post is 100% accurate. Therefor, the need to try and argue this any further with me is pointless, because we aren't talking apples and apples. We are talking 2D graphics based games vs 3D 1st person MMORPG's. There is a huge difference in that era, and you know it.

 

To the guy that went on his long rant about WoW - I think you are the perfect candidate to articulate what I am saying. Color of gear, soloing - did you read my post? WoW was the start of the decline for players that played MMO's for 6 years prior to WoW. It was fast, simple, instant gratification - it was everything older titles were not. I'm not going to argue this with you either any further. Clearly, as you stated, WoW was your first experience. It is fair to say that you have absolutley no idea what I am talking about when it comes to the founding 3 -and the start of the MMORPG genre.

[MithurElb]

I'll take my old MMORPG from 2004 (Witch I'm still playing) and comment your points. Note, this is kinda confirmation. The game is Saga of Ryzom.

 

I will be happy to enlighten you, even though this wasn't addressed to me.

 

1. Progression after level 10 - all soloable. Old MMO's required cooperation at every turn, for optimal success. Soloing was last resort, and considered the slowest method of progression.

 

True. the only parts I can do solo are a few for Close Combat and offensive magic. A few. And crafting, you can solo that. Gathering resources, better be in a group (for support and resucitation). Heal, only can level healing other people in real combat, so group.

 

Even so, anything goes a lot faster if you go in groups, so anyone, always, is in a group.

 

 

2. "Quests" in newer MMO's require no thought. They aren't puzzles. There is no discovery. They are merely - click on the dude with the triangle over his head, and complete his TASK for him. Old MMO's - required trial and error. No indication that an NPC was a quest - giver. You hailed an NPC, then you would have to follow up with questions, like /s what bandits, or what infestation? In order to get more from the NPC. Then, he wouldn't even tell you exactly what needed to be done. He may say something like bring me proof of your efforts. That may be a linen sash, or a orc skull. Trial and error.

 

To get fame with certain factions you ahve to make missiones (Almost the only missions in the game). No radar, no indication. A general direction, and go to search. You need to learn the zone to find things. So the first missions, not only are missions, but are true exploration of zones, and learning of things.

 

You need to know whn certain passes are free of mobs to pass without danger. It happens in certain times (Day/nigth) of certain seasons. Use to be some alternative, but you have to search it.

 

The thing is: you have to know the land, the mobs and the uses.

 

3. Gear was earned. The only way to get upgrades in gear was through grouping, crafting, or buying something in the market that a higher level player looted and sold. Very rare would you loot something from something that you killed that was good for your level.

 

Mainly, is that.

 

You need a lvl 150 armour? then, you ask your guild. If they have, they give you. If not, a group is make to grind the mats, and some crafters start to make the armour.

 

4. Epic encounters / Raids - 8 and 16 people. Come on, do I need to say more? There is nothing epic about that. 8 - 16 people used to cooperate in separate groups to break spwan camps maybe, for an exp group. But as the largest scale encounter with end game gear? What a joke. Raids of 40, 54, 72 - 100 : That is a raid. Large scale cooperation - with no vent, OMG!!

 

150 people killing swarms of mobs in some event. 100+ people killing the worst zone bosses (Primal roots and that).

 

And 150 vs. 150 Outpost battles.

 

5. Servers have no community responsibility, or accountability. The constant bantering / arguing in open trade chats would have never taken place in an Old School MMO. Your reputation was everything for desired success. Ninja looters? Never got a 2nd group. People that like to belittle others - never got a 2nd group. Cross - server LFG's and soloability takes every reason to be civil out of theses games. Why be nice to a stranger, when you never need anyone else for success?

 

I know people who have to go from the game (Or start some unknown alt) just because he was behaving like an a s s and people took action.

 

One guild kick him. Some other gives an opportunity. Kicked again, and then, noone takes him in guild or group.

 

As easy as that. And the final is: You have no a s s e s in that game. Is the most civic community I've ever seen.

 

5a. Multi - guild cooperation existed when it came to opposing factions. Organized raid schedules between guilds - secure entrances to the highest zones, with the best gear. Fight the opposing faction for the RIGHT to obtain that gear. Instanced raids/dungeons at every turn that have no PvP implications = snoozefest. Why even have opposing factions on a server? The fights are of 0 signifigance other than E-Peen bragging rights on a forum.

 

Faction PvP to retain outpost. Multi-guild alliances, some of them very precarious, based in the trade of the outpost goodies (Experience catalyzers).

 

Treaties of mutual help between guilds concerning bosses (One guild protect from enemy faction guild while one kill a boss, other day the opposite).

 

What else do you want to know?

 

Fact is - the poster that you tried to belittle, is exactly right. True MMOers are becoming extinct, because we are being force - fed this garbage that is truly a single player game, with a small scale cooperative option, and being labled as an mmo so they can make some money.

 

I don't call it "True MMOers". Just, Classic MMOers or Sandbox MMOers.

 

And we are not becoming extinct. The game make the comunity, and now there isn't games like that.

 

But they are returning, after the dark ages of WoW.

 

But, as today, I only feel pity for those playes whose actions have never influence hundreds of others players. I know mine have. And that's something that no amount of kickass-raid-gear of battlechampioncenturion-nigthmarex2mode-Flashpointsraids will give them.

Edited February 13, 2012 by MithurElb

[namespace]

My thoughts are in the link in my sig (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=216855). To that post, add this:

 

- No day/night cycle (not a big deal)

- No swimming (ehh, I am not a fish)

- No housing (this is stupid and a waste of development time)

- No Pazaak, Sabacc, Dejarik, races, casino, etc... (cant have it all)

- Dumbed down character creation (for balance reasons)

- No post-creation character customization (not high priority)

- No appearance tab/outfit system (see above)

- No high res textures (agreed, outdated graphics already)

- No environmental interaction (chairs, walls, doors, etc...)

- Simple combat with static enemies (actually, combat is more dynamic than any MMO)

- Unconvincing and stiff animations (some, yes)

- Empty dead worlds with not enough NPCs moving around (this isnt Skyrim)

- No collision detection (uhhh...)

- No stats on resources (what?)

- No crafting customization (its release, they have enough stuff)

- Restriction in choice of starship (this isnt SWG)

- No ship decoration (see house reason)

- Dumbed down space combat (not a focus in an MMO)

- No multiplayer space combat (very difficult to do, I see it in the future)

- Removal of many races (cant have everything)

- No faction change/neutrality (no need in early game)

- Restriction and instanced planets by faction (agreed, dont like this)

- Less planets than announced (dont know)

- Planets rated by levels with no reason to go back (do you need to?)

- No GM events (its the second month)

- Removal of choice to kill companion (stupid idea to kill companion)

- Removal of possibility to talk to other faction at all times (standard faction split thing)

- No RP tools (go RP in Skyrim)

- Nothing to do post-story (you dont raid, do you?)

- Endgame consisting on waiting in fleet (See above)

 

In other words... you wanted the game to come out in 2015 and cost $200 million more dollars?

[finetop]

I played the Cathode Ray Tube Amusement Device in 1948. SWTOR has more features than that game. Also I like it when casual players paying for development of a game I like to play. I don't care what casual players want because it has no effect on me.

[Mephismo]

I took my dog to the Vets the other day he got sick from eating MMO’s or maybe it was M&M’s

[AaronPenick]

Since Rift has a level 20 trial I played it this weekend with my fiance who wanted to learn how to play a MMO. Man I forgot how polished that game was and now is. (At launch it was alot better then tor)

 

I have decided to not resub this month and am very much leaning towards giving Rift another chance if the fiance gets into it (she seemed to have a lot of fun this weekend)

 

Maybe 1.2 and the legacy system will bring me back but with the glaring lack of common features that should be there at launch i have just had enough. Just my opinion and not flaming anyone else. If you are enjoying it have fun.

 

This makes me really sad D: I had such high hopes for you TOR! You were my brother i loved you!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hesith_241.jpg

[GellonSW]

In other words... you wanted the game to come out in 2015 and cost $200 million more dollars?

 

Come on. We all know BW spent 299.9 million on actors while the other .1 million was spent on gameplay. With these features the cost would go to .2 million