Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Heretiq]

Good thing you said many. Me, I don't care either way.... I've said this like 10 times, because I can see it helping some, but hurting others. Same can be said if it doesn't come, people who don't like whispering/shouting/whatever for groups, coupled with others who want it "quick like a bunny!" (yay for Mad Moxxi!), and people who have RL commitments that tend to interfere are going to have issues getting groups.

 

I see it both ways, neither side is right. Neither side should be telling the other side to suck it up and deal with it in any form. Throw in your reasoning without trying to degrade the other side and leave it at that and you'll likely never hear from me again. Unless I have a view and put my opinion in of course.

 

It's just a very heated up and emotional debate, really.

 

People already called me lazy, unsocial and a jerk. People also knew for a fact that, because I'm such a jerk, everyone has me on his ignore list already and that's why I can't find any groups.

 

On the other hand I've already seen arguments that the Anti-LFG-People probably don't have a life or friends and therefore can devote so much of their time to the game and think that they should be rewarded for doing just that.

 

Yeah - insults and baseless assumptions are being thrown all around. But I didn't expect anything else to be honest. It's the internets.

 

Yes - neither side is right. And as it looks like right know we won't find a compromise that everyone can live with. Which means that someone is going to get the short end of the stick. And in my opinion it should be the minority. And I think that the minority is against the LFG-tool. I can't prove it or call it a fact. It's just my opinion.

[souloferdrick]

I'm sorry but do you genuinely believe that swtor is what? harder?

 

It's structured the exact same way, hard modes for the challenge seekers and everything else for the rest.

 

Did I say it was harder? Why argue against something you're assuming I meant? There's a word for that kind of thing.

 

Game developers could stand to do a lot better and use their own friggin minds instead of taking their cues and inspirations from other games and peddling it off to me as some revelation.

Edited February 14, 2012 by souloferdrick

[mothear]

OK how about a compromise - you get your cross server LFD up until 49.

 

Once you hit 50 no more LFD. Why ...

 

I don't raid so FP at 50 will be my end game when I get there:-

 

 

So at 50 there will be -

 

1. No free commendations, incentives to reduce queue times;

2. No 'luck of the draw' buff do make it easier;

3. No nerfing the content until it becomes hopeless

 

Why should my end game suffer because it will if your solutions to server imbalances/population is a WoW based LFD.

 

By the way someone asked earlier about the devs putting out a poll. Whilst they may do that Bioware also randomly ask subscribers their opinions via e-mail. It happens they sent one to me so I replied honestly and as you can guess didn't ask for an LFD . If you get one then put it there that you want one. It is this sort of market research that will lead the company to implement or not.

 

I'm actually happy that this thread is still going because hopefully Bioware will read the comments and see the tone of many of the pro lobby against the tone of the anti lobby and possibly put back the implementation of this tool for some time.

[darkcerb]

Game developers could stand to do a lot better and use their own friggin minds instead of taking their cues and inspirations from one other games and peddling it off to me as some revelation.

 

Feel free to enlighten us all with your brilliance, the suggestion box can be reached easily enough and there you can dictate how you'd do things.

 

Until then we'll work with what we have.

[ispanolfw]

I edited it after you acknowledged both sides shouldn't be telling other people what to think.

 

The argument is simple from my point of view - lfg = more content for more people.

 

The people arguing against lfg also try to argue that we should do what they do : Find a guild that runs content.

 

which leads to the most obvious of questions - why would an implementation of an LFG tool stop your guild from running content?

 

It's an option. There is no objective evidence to suggest it "destroys communities" - anyone who lived through Barrens chat realizes how stupid of an argument this is.

 

Looks like the mods didn't like it much, removed my post too, wish they would at least say something in a pm when they do so however, maybe a reasoning *shrug*

 

And that's the thing, guilds are still going to, most likely anyhow, have no issues. The issue is for those who want to play with people on the same server, or dislike a cross server tool, or dislike the lack of a "journey", or the people who don't fit well into a guild and also don't like the tool. It does affect these people because the people they can access to try to find a group at any given time has been drastically reduced since people can just hit a button and get a group. So now if they wish to get groups, they either use the tool, or try to join a guild, which may not be possible due to schedule or whatnot.

[Touchbass]

Neither side can say with certainty that more people want it or don't.

 

However it is probably a fair assumption that the various companies who run Rift, WoW, and SWTOR get more positive than negative feedback on LFG tools.

 

I can't provide any evidence other than that mmo companies continue to implement these tools and attempt to improve upon them. If they were abject failures they would likely phase them out and future mmo's would not implement them.

 

As for the arguments. The reason they likely get more positive feedback is simple: LFD tools allow access to content to a larger number of people.

 

If you are arguing AGAINST LFD tools you are arguing that certain groups of people should not have access to content unless they play the amount of time and the way you do.

 

I rarely joined server-created groups because much of the time I end up having something come up irl and not being able to finish the run seems a bit unfair to other people - quite frankly it is much easier and less of a dick-move to leave a LFG group because the group can quite simply queue back up and add another player. Server-side groups can not, they go back to spamming channels LFG for blah except they are already in the dungeon and it's not always as simple as just going back to wherver and spamming.

 

Many of the people who despise LFG are those who dont NEED it to do content and have a superiority complex about their gear score. THey hate the idea that a casual player like myself can now get gear scores close to their own even though I don't spend 90% of my day online and have other responsibilities i attend to irl.

 

Yeah, this is what I am feeling myself. Thank you for your thoughts

[Heretiq]

OK how about a compromise - you get your cross server LFD up until 49.

 

Once you hit 50 no more LFD. Why ...

 

I don't raid so FP at 50 will be my end game when I get there:-

 

 

So at 50 there will be -

 

1. No free commendations, incentives to reduce queue times;

2. No 'luck of the draw' buff do make it easier;

3. No nerfing the content until it becomes hopeless

 

Why should my end game suffer because it will if your solutions to server imbalances/population is a WoW based LFD.

 

By the way someone asked earlier about the devs putting out a poll. Whilst they may do that Bioware also randomly ask subscribers their opinions via e-mail. It happens they sent one to me so I replied honestly and as you can guess didn't ask for an LFD . If you get one then put it there that you want one. It is this sort of market research that will lead the company to implement or not.

 

I'm actually happy that this thread is still going because hopefully Bioware will read the comments and see the tone of many of the pro lobby against the tone of the anti lobby and possibly put back the implementation of this tool for some time.

 

Ok - how about no? It's a quality of life tool, it saves me a lot of time and I'm not giving it up. Your compromise is not a compromise I can live with. It's not an option.

 

It is this sort of market research that will lead the company to implement or not.

 

That's a pretty naive thing to say to be honest. They will look at the most succesful competitor (WoW) and try and copy the features that made it so succesful. The Cross-Server LFG-Tool is one of these features.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Heretiq

[Emeda]

I edited it after you acknowledged both sides shouldn't be telling other people what to think.

 

The argument is simple from my point of view - lfg = more content for more people.

 

The people arguing against lfg also try to argue that we should do what they do : Find a guild that runs content.

 

which leads to the most obvious of questions - why would an implementation of an LFG tool stop your guild from running content?

 

It's an option. There is no objective evidence to suggest it "destroys communities" - anyone who lived through Barrens chat realizes how stupid of an argument this is.

 

The people who that dont want a LFG are trying to keep the little bit of MMO left in it still in it. We are not doing it for us but for the game as a whole.

 

The people who want a LFG only wnat a LFG for themselves, they dont want to be hasseled with looking for other people and just want to get an auto group so they can get the loot and be done with it.

 

The people that dont want the players to interact with each other like an MMO is suppost to be, and by doing so you will make friends (hopefully) and then you will be able to get a group made quickly and you will know that the people you group with are honest and are helping you instead of just caring about yourself.

 

Friends wont bail after one wipe.

Friends wont steal your loot for their companions

Friends wont sit and let you do all the work while they do nothing

Friends wont kick you when you have to go AFK for 2 mins (for whatever reason) so you lose the run

Friends will help you after you finish the instance with anything else you need.

 

We want you to make friends and the only way your going to do that is by having to group with people from your server.

[Raansu]

Actually it is at least partially true. The less people interacting, the less of a community you have. A tool, like WoW's as an example, allows you to bypass that community and just click a few buttons and go kill some trash/bosses with people you in all likelihood will never see again.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do that either. I'm saying that what you replied to is at least partially correct.

 

Again, this is not true. Your example is no different than building a pug group outside of the fact that you are going around the time wasted sitting in the cities/fleets/towns trying to build said pug.

 

If you consider constantly typing "LF1M (class) then g2g" as interacting and creating a "community" then you are nuts. People still use general chat, people still interact with their guilds, people still do the special events. LFD does not hurt the community, its pure fallacy and fear mongering. I've seen it implemented in 3 different games, all of which have benefited from it. I watch my roommate play WoW running several dungeons while still interacting with people in the city and with his guild. The community is still there. I have watched my roommate run 5 dungeons in the same time frame it has taken me to get a group together and run 1 FP...Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? Then you look over and see the same thing going on in there trade chat as the fleets general chat. Nothing is different.

[Heretiq]

If that's true then you will work with the LFG tool the way it is.

 

Glad you have come around.

 

Your welcome.

 

Nah thanks. I will just go ahead and work with the Cross-Server LFG-tool that is going to be implemented.

 

Glad you have come around though.

 

You're welcome.

[glenbruton]

OMG like its hard to keep an eye on general or something. how did anyone ever find a group before WoW implemented the FindAChump system?

[Allmightyprom]

Ok OP here is how it is. people wont read your post, they will just post a couple of dumb "reasons" why they think there should be a LFG function.

 

The vast majority of MMO players know that having more functionality such as cross server queues and LFG system will only benefit the MMO they are playing.

 

The small minority will allways cite the QQ of "omg, dont put lfg tool in, it ruins community" which is just a null and void argument tbh.

[darkcerb]

 

The people who want a LFG only wnat a LFG for themselves,

 

We want you to make friends and the only way your going to do that is by having to group with people from your server.

 

I'm sorry but I don't want you to dictate my play style or to re-work me socially.

 

I'll settle for my optional tool thanks.

 

And you're right I do want the tool for myself, that it will immensely help so many others is just gravy.

[darkcerb]

If that's true then you will work with the LFG tool the way it is.

 

Glad you have come around.

 

Your welcome.

 

Except what we have is tried and true system already in place in modern mmo's.

 

Pretty ham fisted attempt really, thanks for trying?

[Heretiq]

Where did my comment go? D=

 

Edit:

 

Yeah. You may as well want do delete the whole thread.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Heretiq

[Aurrelio]

Hi there.

 

Please note that a number of posts have been removed from this thread, as the discussion was beginning to turn distinctly unconstructive.

 

If necessary, please review the Rules of Conduct for a reminder of the rules and expectations when posting on the forums. You can find the Rules of Conduct here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

 

Thanks. Please try to keep any further responses to this topic constructive, relevant, and civil.

[Raansu]

The people who that dont want a LFG are trying to keep the little bit of MMO left in it still in it. We are not doing it for us but for the game as a whole.

 

The people who want a LFG only wnat a LFG for themselves, they dont want to be hasseled with looking for other people and just want to get an auto group so they can get the loot and be done with it.

 

 

This is not true. Most of us have guilds and friends to play and many of us do run the content, especially the end game OPS. This still doesn't change the fact that we do make alts, we do all have different play times outside our scheduled runs, we do want to play the content when friends/guildies are not online.

 

How would you feel if they suddenly removed the queue for warzones? The only time you could play was when you had a full group. No more random nights were you feel like going in solo and just playing a few rounds. This is no different from LFD queues.

[darkcerb]

Could really have used a temporary lock while that clean up was happening feel like I just fell out of a washing machine.

[mothear]

Ok - how about no? It's a quality of life tool, it saves me a lot of time and I'm not giving it up. Your compromise is not a compromise I can live with. It's not an option.

 

 

 

That's a pretty naive thing to say to be honest. They will look at the most succesful competitor (WoW) and try and copy the features that made it so succesful. The Cross-Server LFG-Tool is one of these features.

 

No surprise there, you demand to reduce my enjoyment so you can have your 'quality of life' improved - how thoughtful - sucks to be me I suppose eh.

 

Actually I am confident that I can factually state that WoW has less subscribers now than they did when they implemented LFD (although to be fair I'm not suggesting that that was the only cause)

[terminova]

huh...something got removed from the thread....not surprising really. Edited February 14, 2012 by terminova

[darkcerb]

OMG like its hard to keep an eye on general or something. how did anyone ever find a group before WoW implemented the FindAChump system?

 

Slowly over a day's time and then they were grateful for it.

 

One a day. Just like now in swtor (If lucky), if you think that's fine great. I don't.

 

Love how you felt you needed to slip in an insult while you were at it to, really helps your point.

[samht]

So, you haven't really debunked the arguments; you've just said you disagree with them. Some don't.

 

Personally, I think there's a lot of truth to the argument that LFD systems (at least as implemented in WoW and Rift) do hurt community. Not only do they remove the incentive to socialize by removing the need to have friends in the game for grouping with, but the way groups are slammed together and people are teleported right in front of the first fight removed any need to communicate at all. As a result, people generally don't. Those of us who've played in games with that type of LFD system know that in the majority of cases, you end up with a group that barely says one word to each other. They pop in, grind through their instance, and split up at the end without ever having connected in any way at all.

 

Personally, I think that's where the bad behavior in LFD groups comes from. It's hard to see other players as people in that kind of mostly unsocial setting. Also, the lack of a connection with those people makes it easier to treat them badly.

 

Now, I now a lot of people want a tool that makes finding a group easier. I haven't had any trouble myself, bu I know many have, and that the current LFG system is sorely lacking. However, if/when it gets upgraded or replaced, I'd hope that something is learned from the systems in other games, and I really think it's possible to build something better. In my opinion, just not having the teleport functionality would go a long way toward doing that. It'd give people a reason to talk before they start fighting. It may just be a simple "On my way, be there in two minutes," but at least it'd be something. That may be all it takes to make people in your group seem like actual people, and not just voiceless bots that seem more like NPCs than humans.

 

First off, if anything lfg systems buid community they all players to gain gear and exp in raids and flash points. Thus, letting them join guilds for raiding. Second before, lfg I had never raided because I didn't have the gear or knowledge. I still raid on wow 1 or 2 times a week sometimes whith lfr other times with ppl from my server, furthermore, I have yet to do fp in swtor since 2011. Not to mention I don't do heroic quest because most people r unconsidered sobs that expect u to wait while they train or finish quest right after they join a group, and when you kick them they go into nerd rage and start calling u names, sorry got to go LFR popped up.

[Raansu]

No surprise there, you demand to reduce my enjoyment so you can have your 'quality of life' improved - how thoughtful - sucks to be me I suppose eh.

 

Actually I am confident that I can factually state that WoW has less subscribers now than they did when they implemented LFD (although to be fair I'm not suggesting that that was the only cause)

 

WoW's subscriptions were falling LONG before the LFD tool was implemented. Simply put, the game is getting old, people are getting bored and the expansions haven't been that great. This is normal for MMO's that have been online for as long as WoW has. It's called diminishing returns.

[ispanolfw]

Again, this is not true. Your example is no different than building a pug group outside of the fact that you are going around the time wasted sitting in the cities/fleets/towns trying to build said pug.

 

If you consider constantly typing "LF1M (class) then g2g" as interacting and creating a "community" then you are nuts. People still use general chat, people still interact with their guilds, people still do the special events. LFD does not hurt the community, its pure fallacy and fear mongering. I've seen it implemented in 3 different games, all of which have benefited from it. I watch my roommate play WoW running several dungeons while still interacting with people in the city and with his guild. The community is still there. I have watched my roommate run 5 dungeons in the same time frame it has taken me to get a group together and run 1 FP...Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? Then you look over and see the same thing going on in there trade chat as the fleets general chat. Nothing is different.

 

Think you missed the memo from some pages back. Community in this sense is not the speaking, it's the actual group of people. That group which is now diminished because some amount now use the tool instead.

[Raansu]

Think you missed the memo from some pages back. Community in this sense is not the speaking, it's the actual group of people. That group which is now diminished because some amount now use the tool instead.

 

And you are missing the point that pugs are still pugs. LFD just eliminates the process of spending hours building the group. In the end the real community eventually falls down to your guild.