What is so great about open world pvp?

[Wyrdstar]

Arena/WZ: You win you win. You lose you still win. Rinse repeat. Now go stand around in your big shoulder pads and stroke your epeen while you gaze at your name on the leader board on another monitor.

 

Old school world pvp: You win you and your holdings/realm are safe "for the time being" you lose and your entire realm/guild suffers the penalty until you rally and go smash face taking back what is yours.

 

It's a no brainer.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Wyrdstar

[DosPeros]

To win world pvp all you need is numbers. You see this over and over and over again through out the various MMOs. Having a big group cover up a lot of your own short comings, so the bigger the battle the less individual skill matters.

 

 

Most quality Open world PVP never takes place in big groups... ever...

 

I belong to a guild of four and that is usually the largest group we are ever in...

 

Our group is designed to be balanced for open world Hunting..

 

Sentinel- DPS

Commando- Range

Guardian - Tank

Sage- Heal

 

Pray we never find you ... for we seek to make you our content

[SeloDaoC]

I dont like open world pvp in the pve zones. The "open" world kind of pvp i like is the kind found in Daoc.

[carliiiiito]

NO you didn't!!!

Perma death x3 deaths period, with xp loss, skill loss and that was only at the start of the jedi in game.. later it went to -10 mill xp loss max and 500k a death or something like that, i dont remember cause i wasnt a CU kash jedi afker getting ganked every other day or in spin groups waiting for a BH to head shot me while spinning mobs, but i remember the QQ.

 

BH's although a pain was never an issue,, it was a def stacker or pikeman/def hybrid with medic and some good dot sticks that you feared and you didnt need a PBS for that once you became perma overt knight a BH was the least of your problems.

 

The only time a BH would kill you cause tbh they sucked was the bomb droid while afk, unless you where just grinding up a new jedi and went a really stupid way about it.

 

I could go on for days about but for the most part i know you are a respec Jedi or CU at best..

 

 

 

maybe i dont remember the death penalty perfectly ,was almost 7 years ago so memory might fail me.Believe what you want about when i was a jedi,really dont care,i lived it so i know its true.i still remember animal scare..so yeah w/e bro

[Vaporizer-Delta]

UO on the Catskills server was my first MMO I ever played. I remember getting ganked by Frank and Beans everytime I left town. If it werent for those two PKs, i probably would have quit UO after a few days.

[Surly_T]

To win world pvp all you need is numbers. You see this over and over and over again through out the various MMOs. Having a big group cover up a lot of your own short comings, so the bigger the battle the less individual skill matters.

 

In open world PvP, however, it IS possible to get more numbers, to send out a call and have people come along for the fight. OWPvP is a constantly shifting dynamic that also allows players to exercise some initiative, or try new tactics and strategies to best their opponent(s). It is in a constant state of flux.

 

"Instanced PvP" (eg: our Warzones) are static affairs that actually tend to punish any creative thinking more than they reward it, with everyone using xx "strats" to meet their goal, and their opponents utilizing xx "strats" to stop them. Nor does the field of battle ever change, except within the confines and rules of the mini-game you're playing. Instanced PvP tends to lend itself towards stagnation and boredom, as everyone has run through the zones a million times and knows what needs to be done to win whatever shiny prize awaits them. And God help anyone that isn't playing the zones "properly", as they'll be met with criticism and condemnation, mostly from their own team-mates (especially true in PuG WZ's). This of course leads to pre-mades, unbalanced forces, and in my own opinion, can actually harm a MMO community more than it nurtures it, as people begin to only clump together with their trusted allies.

 

Not saying this doesn't happen in OWPvP, but at least in OWPvP you tend to gather a more diverse crowd, all from different guilds, etc, and all generally playing together to overcome the opposition.

[DosPeros]

I too have a trouble recalling some of the specifics from those days.... I was so pissed once they made Jedi a starting class I quit... It took a year to to get Jedi and then they let some dude just roll the toon........

 

Screw Sony....

 

And then I played EQ2..... still hate Sony..... But EQ2 had great open world PVP....

 

Lost a Platinum piece because I forgot to put it away before heading out...... still hurts..

[Dreadspectre]

I don't know about anyone elses server but if you like sporadic OWPvP, the center node in Ilum is a gankers paradise. Republic groups are always getting a few together to cause chaos on my idiot imperial faction.

 

There's even enough terrain to take advantage of, I can't recall how many times I've baited someone to the edge of a cliff to Force Push them off and get instant valor. There was one time too when a 3 man group of Rep's surprised me and were on top of the small hillish th ing on the north side of Central and force pulled me up and ganked the hell out of me.

 

World PvP is what you make of it kids. If you want more, roll a Republic and go find it. World PvP has little to do with zone design and more to do with the fact that with the advent of instanced PvP, everyone sits in main cities in the queue instead of running around outside.

 

I like both, as do most people who play this game. Threads like these are just annoying and are basically just old gamers looking to give their "well back in my day" speech. I should know, I've been playing since UO too, but you know what? Things change, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. Either way, Instanced or Open, PvP is sitll PvP.

[Razot]

maybe i dont remember the death penalty perfectly ,was almost 7 years ago so memory might fail me.Believe what you want about when i was a jedi,really dont care,i lived it so i know its true.i still remember animal scare..so yeah w/e bro

 

Uh huh..

 

You dont forget that stuff man it was a trauma unlocking for the first few months of it..

Later it was just fight clubbing and a borked FRS system. The Jedi thing killed that great game tbh First the halo grind then the village, it caused everyone to want one then they couldnt hang and emo rage bail to WoW. The support was just a pure pain from Buffs to an alt farming crystals and pearls and other junk like AA's

 

This is why i am so against progression in PVP systems cause it creates an everwanting need for items and neglects the PVP and thats whats the whole thing is supposed to be about anyway PVP..

 

Now its just instanced crap and people with no understanding of world PVP (this thread) Imagine if SOE would have had WFs in the game attached to the Jedi grind.. in some ways thats what we have now..

Edited February 10, 2012 by Razot

[EasymodeX]

I don't know about anyone elses server but if you like sporadic OWPvP, the center node in Ilum is a gankers paradise. Republic groups are always getting a few together to cause chaos on my idiot imperial faction.

 

Insufficient. On my server, there are too many Imps circling. Once in awhile something happens, but the Imps roll it too hard and Reps typically don't come back. Running in circles for 3 hours for 5 minutes of action is simply not worth it.

 

 

If you want more, roll a Republic and go find it.

 

I agree, but I'm not willing to reroll and then re-grind expertise and all the other **** this game entails.

[TobyC]

Pre-CU Jedi in SWG were awesome... I wasn't one but I still remember the first one I met... He was a wookiee named Arrow on the Bloodfin server. The ONLY reason I knew there was a Jedi around was because I heard the *snap-hiss* of the lightsaber. NGE killed SWG, imo...

 

Instanced PvP is just another grind. I don't care for it honestly... Lineage II had great PvP imo, it was meaningful, especially during castle sieges. Maybe they got that from DAoC, idk but it was fun. Vanguard had decent PvP.

 

Point is, open world pvp can be 100 times better than instanced pvp just because its meaningful. There is risk/reward to consider. It gets the heart pumping a little bit faster and that's exciting.

[ErnieVega]

world pvp is awesome because its exciting and unpredictable. You dont know how many guys the enemy is bringing, or what direction they are coming from. Its more organic as well... I mean if you are on illum and you see an enemy you dont know if that guy is part of a huge ops group, killing him could potentially alert many to your location. You are given a choice to engage or strategically retreat. It adds a another level of realism that you cant find in instanced pvp.

[Celebrus]

Personally I am not drawn to world PvP for any reason. I'm sorry, but nothing feels more "organic" about world PvP than instanced WZs. It's no more spontaneous when most of the time any world PvP action has been planned out/organized to some extent. They built an entire zone for the purpose of forced PvP, IT IS NOT UNPREDICTABLE OR SPONTANEOUS. If I go to Ilum, I have a reasonably low chance to kill/be killed by an enemy player, and a very high chance of nascaring my way around the central assault picking up armaments. That is not spontaneous.

 

I do however enjoy instanced WZs. I enjoy all three of the WZs in this game, and personally am hoping they focus more on adding more WZs than on improving Ilum, which, face it, is nothing more than a broken way of trading kills to farm valor at this point, it is not world PvP, it is not fun

 

IMO, people that long for world PvP are mostly stuck in a time that is no longer here, they are victims of nostalgia, because world PvP is an element of MMOs that died when instanced PvP was born.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Celebrus

[DosPeros]

 

IMO, people that long for world PvP are mostly stuck in a time that is no longer here, they are victims of nostalgia, because world PvP is an element of MMOs that died when instanced PvP was born.

 

Basically you are saying we are old (46 here) and yes maybe the fact is I am nostalgic for the good old days....

 

I did not grow up with cell phones, iPods and the Internet.... TV had four channels, and I was my Dad's remote control. Instant gratification was, well I better not say!

 

New is not always better and certainly Instanced PVP has it's upside, but basically it is mindless repetition for the uncreative and easily entertained.

 

It is like the space missions, which I do actually occasionally fall asleep during and still manage to complete.

[Fujah]

Personally I am not drawn to world PvP for any reason. I'm sorry, but nothing feels more "organic" about world PvP than instanced WZs. It's no more spontaneous when most of the time any world PvP action has been planned out/organized to some extent. They built an entire zone for the purpose of forced PvP, IT IS NOT UNPREDICTABLE OR SPONTANEOUS. If I go to Ilum, I have a reasonably low chance to kill/be killed by an enemy player, and a very high chance of nascaring my way around the central assault picking up armaments. That is not spontaneous.

 

I do however enjoy instanced WZs. I enjoy all three of the WZs in this game, and personally am hoping they focus more on adding more WZs than on improving Ilum, which, face it, is nothing more than a broken way of trading kills to farm valor at this point, it is not world PvP, it is not fun

 

IMO, people that long for world PvP are mostly stuck in a time that is no longer here, they are victims of nostalgia, because world PvP is an element of MMOs that died when instanced PvP was born.

 

 

You're server must suck. I feed bad for ya..

[SWImara]

One of the problems in a game like SWTOR attempting to implement World PvP is the utter lack of risk. The zerg can only be the zerg because it is literally inconsequential if they die. Kill trading would not exist if people were penalized when they die (equipment damage isn't good enough as they'll just strip naked first, sadly I've seen this). RvR only compounds this, the only games I've played to date with quality open world PvP were either free for all or RvRvR. Basically lots of people think its lame because they've never played it most likely, we've instead been spoonfed different flavors of inconsequential deathmatches for years.

 

I like the game as is, but attempts at world PvP (a la Ilum) were pretty much doomed from the start. Maybe they'll come up with something to make it enjoyable, imo they never should have incentivized it the way they did. Not everyone likes world PvP but it was originally a fair place for those who enjoy it. Now its just the newest grind and a spot for kill traders.

 

The last game I played that got world PvP even close to right was probably the AoC Blood & Glory server (which was bad for its own reasons). Basically the argument boils down to:

Ongoing Conflict > Esports

 

Of course your mileage may vary.

 

 

New is not always better and certainly Instanced PVP has it's upside, but basically it is mindless repetition for the uncreative and easily entertained.

Worse yet due to its repetitive nature and utter worthlessness in terms of impacting anything in the game (instanced PvP is just a minigame basically) instanced warzone style PvP necessitates personal PvP rewards (ie gear) undermining one of the few great things about PvP (community building). I still enjoy my warzones/battlegrounds/wtfever but it is easy to look at the state of Open World PvP with sad nostalgia.

Edited February 10, 2012 by SWImara

[Malice_Nihilim]

Really I don't understand why you people hold open world pvp as the epitome of pvp and that instanced pvp is crud. Someone explain it to me...

 

I mean the problem I find with it is that its just mindless zerg vs zerg.

 

Being a player who has played many formats of PvP in titles reaching back to 99', I'll give you a bit of a run down.

 

There are really 4 types of PvP IMHO.

 

WZ/BG Instanced PvP - This is akin to the FPS match, either as a death match or as an objective based map. It is team vs team and force sides are regulated to create some 'balance' in the match.

 

Arena - This is like Instanced PvP save that it is smaller scale and death match only, which IMHO generates the greatest flaws possible. MMO's are not balanced for duels, which is what an arena is a glorified version of. Classes are balanced based on there synergy across a group, as such Arena brings the least amount of freedom of game play because not all classes are created equal and thus many classes have no value in an Arena format and so only those willing to play only very specific classes and builds are able to be successful in Arena.

 

Free For All PvP - Even if the PvP is divided into factions, this is basically the formula for a PvP server. It allows players to attack others within the PvE environment. There is little value to this other then griefing and ganking, but a lot of players do in fact like the risk factor and it does heighten situational awareness which, if you are into the higher stress environments, can be a lot of fun.

 

RvR/OWPvP/War - Is PvP normally designed to have the most 'value' on a large scale. It is a truly dynamic environment. There is Zerg combat who is usually working against the highest value long term targets, in the case of most games, these are keeps/castles that take significant time and effort to take down, while you have small bands of skill players either clashing with other small bands, or taking lesser objectives and using them to farm all comers that attempt to take the location. Also it allows for solo play, where solo or limited stealth groups etc can function as harassment in high traffic bottle necks, etc. Open World PvP is also normally in a lake/zone etc that separates it from leveling PvE, so that when players are present in the Open World area, they are there for the primary task of PvP.

 

The end result truly comes down to what you think MMO PvP is, determined what you think is best.

 

I myself personally think dueling in MMO's is an amusing distraction at best, and so I think Arena's are a joke. To me, that is not PvP, its like describing Boxing as fighting. Sure, they slug it out and people get hurt, but a FIGHT is dynamic and you never know who is going to jump in. Its a Gladiatorial match. Others like the instant gratification of instanced PvP that has no other value than to improve via a gear grind or other basically PvE goal.

 

Most gankers like the Free for All environment, because they like to bully other players or they like the risk it takes to survive in that enviroment, but my prefered method is more like War. It is objective based, it is leadership based, it is group based and it is highly dynamic. Battles flex back and forth on how many people showed up, or simply a smaller group using superior tactics to tear apart larger groups etc.

 

I really fell in love with this formula for PvP because back when I played Asheron's Call, I always though PvP would have been more interesting if we could officially claim towns, etc and fight over these assets in a real sense, so when I started playing DAoC at release day, the idea of having a massive area full of castles and relic objectives, that people would battle for, for the betterment of the realm and to create community and unity in a realm, was amazing. I have done zerg battle, I have done 8man fighting and love the dynamic flow of the Open World Game Play. Players have a wide range of things to excel at instead of simply just being the guy with the best ping/access to buffs/hit his buttons in the right combo and got more lucky crits then you, it lets people who are leaders, excel at leading, those that are good at tactics and positioning to be good at that, and lets players that are good at the 1 v 1 conflict to be good at that, all in one environment.

 

Unfortunately, without some major reworking, the formula fails in SWTOR. The reason here is multi faceted. Mainly the system does not work well in a 2 faction system, nor does it work without a system that will allow for population imbalance to be taken into account.

[AstralProjection]

OWPvP is bad.

 

Poorly designed OWPvP is horrible.

 

OWPvP itself is not. People who have experienced real PVP in games prior to WoW making the focus of MMORPGs 100% gear based with no other depth all speak very highly of it.

 

Most of the kiddies new to the genre don't get it. It's no offense to those who haven't experienced it, but plenty of games prior to the WoW era managed to create meaningful large scale, world shaping PVP prior to instancing PVP.

 

Instancing PVP was done to lessen the load on servers that can't handle the advanced graphics effects that we demand in our games occurring simultaneously in the same tiny area.

 

It has nothing to do with fairness. Even the best working matchmaking systems don't work in MMORPG battlegrounds because of the rock, paper, scissors designs of the classes. World PVP isn't always fair. Neither is an instance.

 

Ventrilo/TS/Mumble

Different Team Comps

Players quitting/DCing

Starting with less players

Gear Differential

PC Speed and Capabilities, High Quality Peripherals

Internet Connection

Experience Level

 

An even playing field in an online game of this size is an illusion. Instancing in theory takes a good shot at evening the field, but in practice that just isn't usually the case.

 

OWPvP is often fondly remembered because it has a relevant effect on the world, instead of feeling like a child's jungle gym that gets rebuilt for each kid behind you to swing on the monkey bars when it's their turn.

 

The game that brought 50% of the players into this genre, WoW, was not designed for OWPvP, and horrible for PVP from the start. The only frame of reference most of them have was a flawed, 2 faction open world system, which TOR has basically jumped right into the same trap of.

 

That's mainly because of the lack of demand for it. When WoW garnered all the players it did, they had no way of knowing that meaningful OWPvP existed before. Most of the player base probably just doesn't care.

 

I assure you, though, it can make one of the best MMORPG experiences of your life if done right. Playing dress-up with your digital doll bores everyone once there's no more dresses to try on - because the meaning was taken out of the world. Beaten all the content in a gear grind game? Unsub 'til the next expansion, and enjoy it 'til you run through it all and repeat.

[Eyevan]

World PVP is fun because it is a spontaneous. There are no rules to PvP and the only objective is to kill your enemy. It's PVP where PVP wasn't intended to be.

 

Hmm how to explain this...

 

It's like going to a strip club. You expect to see girls topless and you do and its fun and all good. AND then there is the times you go to a party and the girls there start getting crazy and all of a sudden BOOM they start flashing. AND even though the girls that are flashing might not be as hot as the strippers you are still more excited seeing them topless than the strippers because you weren't expecting to see them topless but you did and it was awesome.

 

that's OWPVP

[bklynfinest]

Forgetting one key factor. OPvP and PvE are related. In all the best OPvP settings (thinking UO, AC1, EQ1) you had PvP that was tied to PvE dungeons. SWTOR has nothing like it because everything is instanced. I ran through some of the ~50planets last night looking for a good ole fashioned fight and found nothing.

 

Remember UO: I could recall into Shame bloods or Deceit bottom floor as a guilded blue. I had a gazillion OPvP alternatives: oranges (rival guilds), reds, flagged greys, I could flag grey myself, I could pk someone, ninja loot a corpse to piss someone off to fight me, duel, etc. Nothing like that in games today.

 

EDIT - Also, the travel system in this game sucks. if I'm getting ganked in OPVP I can't have my guild recall/gate in. It lends itself to ganking.

Edited February 10, 2012 by bklynfinest

[Nahela]

Nothing.

 

People want random ganking as their "open world pvp", that doesn't happen in SWTOR. Ilum is just a bad warzone with horrible performances issues and bugs.

[pixelelement]

No I don't. Explain it to me.

 

The best PvP I have played personally was SWG. This game had really good open world PVP. It's a randomness factor that makes it more challenging, and fun. Sure you have people that are going around ganking others. You also get the random 2vs3, 4vs4, that turns into a big 30vs30 multi guild fight.

[pixelelement]

World PVP is fun because it is a spontaneous. There are no rules to PvP and the only objective is to kill your enemy. It's PVP where PVP wasn't intended to be.

 

Hmm how to explain this...

 

It's like going to a strip club. You expect to see girls topless and you do and its fun and all good. AND then there is the times you go to a party and the girls there start getting crazy and all of a sudden BOOM they start flashing. AND even though the girls that are flashing might not be as hot as the strippers you are still more excited seeing them topless than the strippers because you weren't expecting to see them topless but you did and it was awesome.

 

that's OWPVP

 

That is actually a very funny analogy that oddly I agree with. To funny... Anyways it has a random spontaneous energy that cant be duplicated by WZ or instanced PvP.

[Rowak]

So could we.

 

 

Still doesn't change the fact that OWPvP is bad and just a numbers game.

 

Then your point is illogical. If small skilled groups can take on a zerg - it's not a numbers game.

 

The only thing bad about OWPvp, is that there are no longer any MMOs that have it!

[AstralProjection]

Nothing.

 

People want random ganking as their "open world pvp", that doesn't happen in SWTOR. Ilum is just a bad warzone with horrible performances issues and bugs.

 

I think if you read the multitude of good, honest responses about why people like OWPvP in this thread, you'd see your statement couldn't be more off from the truth.

 

For most people who like OWPvPing, we really don't care which side wins or loses and fun is had on all sides. It's about staging a battle with a little more realism and impact than the same old boring scenery and preset rules and win formulas.

 

Most of the time the battles ebb and flow back and forth in good OWPvP, and it's very hard to declare a real winner. Slaughter for the joy of the slaughter, and winners and losers be damned.