Alot people forget that this game is new...

[corebit]

Please show me the ISO Standard for MMOs to prove your claim. [i googled "Stanard Features Specification For MMOs and got 0 hits]

 

There are no "standard features" in MMOs. There are similarities between MMOs, just like there are dis-similarities between MMOs.

 

As for playing or not playing any particular MMO, that is a personal choice each person makes for themselves.

 

You are simply being obtuse. Believe it or not, WOW IS the standard for MMOs, at least them-park ones. Players compare it against WOW, game media/critics compare it against WOW. Bioware devs themselves acknowledge that most of TOR's features are taken from WOW (check out old videos of Gordon Walton discussing WOW's success in the early stages of TOR).

 

If TOR wanted to escape all these WOW comparisons, they should have made a truely revolutionary game: SWG-style sandbox, no factions, meaningful crafting, true player economy, no trinity, no same pvp-raid endless mill grind.

Edited February 9, 2012 by corebit

[Andryah]

However, there's no rules they shouldn't, but for the sake of their idea about attracting as many satisfied customers as possible, researching and providing a better game and a better service is sort of required.

 

Your premise requires/assumes that you speak for what other players will or will not consider make/break factors for playing an MMO. You speak for yourself. Some people will agree with you. Many will not.

 

The many eye candy features you presented are important to you. Probably important to some other folks as well. Hardly demographic breaking though, much as you would like them to be, they simply are not.

 

The nice thing about MMO companies is that during their patch history in the life cycle of a game they introduce features that are in popular demand by the community of players. Some are substance, some are eye candy (as was the case with all those you listed, some substance, some eye candy). New MMOs know they cannot possibly be all things to all people, so they launch, let the community exerience and grow, listen to the community, and respond over time.

 

Some players are simply impatient and demanding. "I want it on launch because other MMOs do it!" "I want it NOW!" "I demand you fix this NOW!" "I don't see any reason to play the game in it's current state". yada yada. These players will always be disappointed, no matter what MMO they play, and they will always complain, and complain publicly because they need to feel validated. /shrug.

 

If they put everything in for you on day one, then you would play it through and leave. If they don't then you say it's not worth playing. Either way, they don't have a customer that warrants loyalty rewarding patch content for many months to come. That's my opinion, and I understand that you won't agree with me, which is fine.

 

Play a game you like, don't play one you do not like. You have the power to choose.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Andryah

[TotalKitty]

Your premise requires/assumes that you speak for what other players will or will not consider make/break factors for playing an MMO. You speak for yourself. Some people will agree with you. Many will not.

 

The many eye candy features you presented are important to you. Probably important to some other folks as well. Hardly demographic breaking though, much as you would like them to be, they simply are not.

 

The nice thing about MMO companies is that during their patch history in the life cycle of a game they introduce features that are in popular demand by the community of players. Some are substance, some are eye candy (as was the case with all those you listed, some substance, some eye candy). New MMOs know they cannot possibly be all things to all people, so they launch, let the community exerience and grow, listen to the community, and respond over time.

 

Some players are simply impatient and demanding. "I want it on launch because other MMOs do it!" "I want it NOW!" "I demand you fix this NOW!" "I don't see any reason to play the game in it's current state". yada yada. These players will always be disappointed, no matter what MMO they play, and they will always complain, and complain publicly because they need to feel validated. /shrug.

 

If they put everything in for you on day one, then you would play it through and leave. If they don't then you say it's not worth playing. Either way, they don't have a customer that warrants loyalty rewarding patch content for many months to come. That's my opinion, and I understand that you won't agree with me, which is fine.

 

Play a game you like, don't play one you do not like. You have the power to choose.

 

But why settle on something you know will give you less customers eventually, instead of matching the competition from the beginning?

 

From a sales and marketing perspective, it's pretty simple that re-inventing the wheel doesn't win over customers. Re-inventing the wheel AND making a ****** car that can compete, maybe even added a little more. That win you costumers.

[Andryah]

Believe it or not, WOW IS the standard for MMOs, at least them-park ones.

 

Why? Because you say so? Or because that is the way you view MMOs? Either way, you do not speak for everyone in the MMO community.

 

You are simply being obtuse.

 

IMO, it is obtuse to validate/invalidate an MMO based on other MMOs. It's a game. If you like it you play it. If you don't like it, you don't play it. You don't need reasons or comparisons to justify why or why not.

 

Constantly measuring one game to another, particularly in negative and sarcastic methods (as some like you to do here) is not constructive. It is often dramatic though, and maybe that is the real motive and intention for most.

 

Saying what features you would like to have in a game and why IS constructive.

 

Constantly comparing one game to another is really NOT constructive.

[Andryah]

But why settle on something you know will give you less customers eventually, instead of matching the competition from the beginning?

 

You don't know this, you are just speculating based on your own personal projections. You do not have market data to support this, you have your personal preferences.

 

You also do not know what Biowares business focus and plans are with regard to specific player demographics they want to focus on for subscription retention.

 

Most companies don't really try to match their competition, they work to differentiate themselves from their competition in ways that grow market share.

[JumperPenn]

I'm tired of so many making the assumption that everyone came from wow and uses wow as a basis for all thoughts under the sun. Bad design and lack of functionality in a game are fairly universal no matter your background. I for one have never played wow and have no interest in playing wow.

 

I also haven't forgotten that this is 'new' but when you see bad design and missing functionality out of a game that has been in development for as long as this one has it gets to you. With the budget this game supposedly has along with ignoring or being unable to deal with bugs/issues for as long as this one has it gets to you. All from a developer who seemed to know better and then took advantage of the SW IP by cutting corners it gets to you.

 

Why release something with so many missing or poorly designed features that they stack up to degrade "quality of life"? Why not hold off until you can deliver a good portion of those things or why not wait until the functions you actually shipped work the way they should?

 

I can understand feature X,Y,Z aren't done or ready but if you put it in the game it REALLY should work properly. When they don't and haven't for months (back in beta) it just shows you aren't putting the effort into addressing them, don't care, or are unable/incapable of dealing with them.

[TotalKitty]

You don't know this, you are just speculating based on your own personal projections. You do not have market data to support this, you have your personal preferences.

 

You also do not know what Biowares business focus and plans are with regard to specific player demographics they want to focus on for subscription retention.

 

You don't know that

 

Most companies don't really try to match their competition, they work to differentiate themselves from their competition in ways that grow market share.

 

You don't know that

 

 

 

Oh we can play this little "you don't know that"-game if you want to.

 

Most companies does rely on competition. Especially companies that lives off of "creating" things.

By the end of the day, all companies are put on earth for financial reasons.

 

Nobody need any sort of data to realize that.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TotalKitty

[LogicalPremise]

People are whining for Dungeon Finders, Damage Meters, Threath meters, Healing Meters, Balanced PVP etc etc. And I understand that, cause I want those things aswell.

 

BUT stop saying that SW:ToR is a failed game because they don't have all this, while for example WoW does. WoW had NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, of this at launch.

 

I've never seen such a complete collection of illogic displayed as "argument" before.

 

1) No one cares what WoW had at launch: Very simply, we are not competing with WoW "at launch", or EQ "at launch", or Spongbob Squarepants "at launch". People are going to say

 

Game A has Features 1 , 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Game B has Features 1 and 4.

 

Game A has more of the features I want. Choice made.

 

If damage meters and logs and all of that are important to someone enjoying the game then they would be stupid to invest any money in SWTOR until such time as it ACTUALLY implements such things.

 

2) Saying WoW or any other game had problems as launch does not excuse the excreable showing made thus far by Bioware

 

How much time did WoW spend in beta? How long in development? How much money was spent? How about EQ? RIFT, wait, there's a good recent MMO that launched with almost no bugs.

 

There is a vast difference between saying "WoW sucked at launch", which it did, and saying "Since WoW sucked at launch it's okay if SWTOR sucks at launch" which is not. Games that suck at launch nowdays (Warhammer, AFB, Tabula Rasa, Matrix, STO, LOTRO) tend to end up F2P , casualties, or broken and empty.

 

If you spent (pick a figure 80 million, 150 million, 200 million, 300 million) and (pick a number 3, 5, or 7) years in development and a month's long massive beta and nearly two months live , you very simply should not have bugs where you can't even get a stupid WZ counter to register a win. The bugs in raids are NOT ACCEPTABLE. Raid bosses who reset themselves is not acceptable. Raid loot that is subpar or vanishes or assigns itself in a stupid manner is not acceptable. Saying "But WOW didn't have this" just makes you sound like the people claiming the game sucks because it doesn't have a feature WoW does.

 

3) Common sense has to be applied - there simply is no reason for these features to be left out. What EVERYONE blithely skips over is that these features weren't in at WoW's launch because some of them hadn't even been developed.

 

NO ONE had come out with a dungeon finder.

NO ONE had come out with gearscore like tools

NO ONE had come out with real "damage meters" just log parsers, and they were a pain.

 

Of course these things weren't in at launch, they weren't invented yet!!

 

EVERY single MMO -- without exception -- has launched with a combat log in recent years. Even STO, which couldn't even figure out anything else, had a log. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? It's bugged.

 

EVERY single MMO has provided some elements of UI customization from the start in recent years. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? Um...we'll get back to you.

 

I'm sorry but no one should have to waste $60 to see basic features every other game launches with.

 

4) No one expects perfect PVP balance at launch. There is a difference between that and expecting at least some level of actual concern. When people display long lists of large disparities between Empire and Republic classes, and you launch a SHOCKINGLY bad PVP system that encourages all the worst aspects of goonery, ********s, facerolling through WZ, AFKing, and of course, intstgibbing new players, we have every right to say "Dude, ***.".

 

I, myself, am sick of people defending designers from facing the reality of piss-poor design choices. I can understand ability delay, no damage meters, issues with parts of the NM level raids, minor bugs, lags and crashes. I can tolerate broken questlines, a GTN that is non-optimal, and annoyances in gear, leveling and content. I can endure crappy PVP taken nearly point for point on two maps right out of Warhammer, and an anemic end-game.

 

But don't expect anyone to golf-clap Bioware for not even bothering to hit the lowest end of the bar in every single category of the game besides story.

[Ymgos]

It is kinda funny to see players arguing with one another, reminds me there are people who dare say their own opinion without doubt while forgetting what they really argue about. A game. Which is supposed to be a fun hobby/part of a lifestyle. Seems like forums generate a pool of anger that just gets fueled by replies, and trolls (I do admit my mouth has run from time to time) just keep popping up.

 

Sure features, game flaws, the average player skill and matters, and people will agree and disagree at random. But hey I`m no pro, I just milk the cow for what its worth in my own way, and simply play something different when i get tired of it. I saw someone ask why people who love the game spend so much time on the forums. No offense sir, but why don`t people just keep to complaining at the the ones who can physically do something about that game?

 

Yes it is new, and maybe the devs have their own pace at fixing/changing the game for players. There is no written rule for a game to catch up/be compared inch by inch with another game. Something also ironic is that some of people who are questioning the originality of the game, also want to implement stuff from the other game whereas this one in question, is ripped off from.

 

It`s simple really, you like it or you don`t. Ask the right people to do something about your complaints. Play the game and cope with the development that comes along, or find another game to play.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

- "I won`t go down. If I actually do, i`ll do it button mashing. Now where the **** is that candy bar?!"

[CaptRavenous]

"We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl."

 

"Now I know why tigers eat their young."

 

If you think these quotes are completely unrelated to this thread, you're not thinking hard enough.

[Faytte]

Once again we agree, Fay.

 

<3

 

If your on Rift, hit me up on Faeblight, name is Duske. Defiant side.

[Drakainen]

You still cannot compare TOR launch to WoW launch.

Want to know why?

 

Because when you release game with the intention of beating the heavy competition, then you have something that can compete with them. Such as a LFG tool or anything else this sinking ship is lacking.

THEN you add something new and innovative and win.

 

If you do not start out on a competitive level from the start, you're years behind.

 

Exactly, thank you.

[duritz]

man i haven't heard this before. this is 2012. by now time has passed for game companies to research the mmo genre and *hopefully* integrate into their game what others have done in the past 7 years. seriously, it is laid out right in front of them. its called researching precedents - many careers do it. Edited February 9, 2012 by duritz

[denpic]

The creators of this game never said they wanted to beat wow

It was released and is improving every patch

The forums are infected by people that

have nothing better to do but complain

Game is good but the community sucks

[Derbefrier]

do you guys ever get tired of repeating yourselves or do you enjoy smashing your face into a brick wall over and over. I like to debate myself but this isnt debating its trying to ram your opinions down peoples throats as fact. both sides are as guilty as the other. both sides have valid points but it all boils down to personal experiences meaning either you enjoy the game or you don't the reasons dont really matter as you can tell what some one may love about the game another will despise. take what you will from that but there comes a point were you just need to move on

[Karniel]

MMO's improve over time, I dont care if you dont like this game being compared to other MMO's, Its the genre it will be compared.. Alot of MMO's had less and MORE bugs, and boring at max level right out the gate.

 

Im having fun still, even with PVP kills messed up and PVP warzones not counting. Im looking forward to the future, of more operations(next tier), rated warzones, Larger warzones(player size wise). Do I expect them tomorrow? or even next major content patch? no. Would be nice but Im patient I know how mmo's go.

 

What I do expect? I expect char transfer/copy to test center so that the high level content can be properly tested before live release so we dont have these patch problems or balance problems that nobody can test because almost nobody is level 50 on test center(asumption)

[Juanxlink]

I've never seen such a complete collection of illogic displayed as "argument" before.

 

1) No one cares what WoW had at launch: Very simply, we are not competing with WoW "at launch", or EQ "at launch", or Spongbob Squarepants "at launch". People are going to say

 

Game A has Features 1 , 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Game B has Features 1 and 4.

 

Game A has more of the features I want. Choice made.

 

If damage meters and logs and all of that are important to someone enjoying the game then they would be stupid to invest any money in SWTOR until such time as it ACTUALLY implements such things.

 

2) Saying WoW or any other game had problems as launch does not excuse the excreable showing made thus far by Bioware

 

How much time did WoW spend in beta? How long in development? How much money was spent? How about EQ? RIFT, wait, there's a good recent MMO that launched with almost no bugs.

 

There is a vast difference between saying "WoW sucked at launch", which it did, and saying "Since WoW sucked at launch it's okay if SWTOR sucks at launch" which is not. Games that suck at launch nowdays (Warhammer, AFB, Tabula Rasa, Matrix, STO, LOTRO) tend to end up F2P , casualties, or broken and empty.

 

If you spent (pick a figure 80 million, 150 million, 200 million, 300 million) and (pick a number 3, 5, or 7) years in development and a month's long massive beta and nearly two months live , you very simply should not have bugs where you can't even get a stupid WZ counter to register a win. The bugs in raids are NOT ACCEPTABLE. Raid bosses who reset themselves is not acceptable. Raid loot that is subpar or vanishes or assigns itself in a stupid manner is not acceptable. Saying "But WOW didn't have this" just makes you sound like the people claiming the game sucks because it doesn't have a feature WoW does.

 

3) Common sense has to be applied - there simply is no reason for these features to be left out. What EVERYONE blithely skips over is that these features weren't in at WoW's launch because some of them hadn't even been developed.

 

NO ONE had come out with a dungeon finder.

NO ONE had come out with gearscore like tools

NO ONE had come out with real "damage meters" just log parsers, and they were a pain.

 

Of course these things weren't in at launch, they weren't invented yet!!

 

EVERY single MMO -- without exception -- has launched with a combat log in recent years. Even STO, which couldn't even figure out anything else, had a log. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? It's bugged.

 

EVERY single MMO has provided some elements of UI customization from the start in recent years. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? Um...we'll get back to you.

 

I'm sorry but no one should have to waste $60 to see basic features every other game launches with.

 

4) No one expects perfect PVP balance at launch. There is a difference between that and expecting at least some level of actual concern. When people display long lists of large disparities between Empire and Republic classes, and you launch a SHOCKINGLY bad PVP system that encourages all the worst aspects of goonery, ********s, facerolling through WZ, AFKing, and of course, intstgibbing new players, we have every right to say "Dude, ***.".

 

I, myself, am sick of people defending designers from facing the reality of piss-poor design choices. I can understand ability delay, no damage meters, issues with parts of the NM level raids, minor bugs, lags and crashes. I can tolerate broken questlines, a GTN that is non-optimal, and annoyances in gear, leveling and content. I can endure crappy PVP taken nearly point for point on two maps right out of Warhammer, and an anemic end-game.

 

But don't expect anyone to golf-clap Bioware for not even bothering to hit the lowest end of the bar in every single category of the game besides story.

 

 

QFT, to all biodrones, we love the game too, otherwise we would not bother coming here to voice it, unsubbing like few minutes ago would have done it...

[Romiz]

You still cannot compare TOR launch to WoW launch.

Want to know why?

 

Because when you release game with the intention of beating the heavy competition, then you have something that can compete with them. Such as a LFG tool or anything else this sinking ship is lacking.

THEN you add something new and innovative and win.

 

If you do not start out on a competitive level from the start, you're years behind.

 

To get to that state would NEVER EVER be possible. Reason it cost, time, technology never stops, and no MMO would want to release all 7 years of content the first day.

 

Like this game cost about 200 million if you did 7 year to wows point would have cost 1 to 1.4 billion. That is since you need 7x the staff. That is too much of a risk for any investors.

[LogicalPremise]

do you guys ever get tired of repeating yourselves or do you enjoy smashing your face into a brick wall over and over.

 

Please. Some of us sub JUST because of the forums. That brick wall is not going to dismantle itself.

 

*smash* *smash* *smash*

Edited February 9, 2012 by LogicalPremise

[tiggerlove]

I think there are too many low level fanboys trying to defend a crappy product.

[Klarick]

My gripe has nothing to do with the game being new. I understand that SWTOR will have growing pains. I'm very patient when it comes to the bugs and game mechanics. However, it's the poor CS that's getting the best of me. I would include the community manager's in that same area of CS since they are the face of the company.

 

The CS team reeks of amateurs that you wouldn't expect from a compnay like Bioware.

 

I hope SWTOR has a long and great future, but I am very concerned about their total disregard to their customer. Even the way they respond to you...if you are lucky enough to get a response, it's very impersonal, very cold, and normally with some canned response.

 

I find it very odd. I think the lack of MMO experience really shows in this area. Bioware just isn't accustomed to having to interact with their customer at the level that an MMO requires.

 

The above rant is, of course, just one persons opinion -- mine.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Klarick

[Pheroras]

I won't compare tOR to WoW, that would be unfair. For a comparable launch and first year tOR must be compared to Rift. Until the first year is up, this jury will still be out.

[Kunra]

People are whining for Dungeon Finders, Damage Meters, Threath meters, Healing Meters, Balanced PVP etc etc. And I understand that, cause I want those things aswell.

 

BUT stop saying that SW:ToR is a failed game because they don't have all this, while for example WoW does. WoW had NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, of this at launch.

 

 

So let me give you abit of an insight what was available at WoW's launch.

 

Dungeon Finder? No, there was a tool similiar to the "Who" tool available in SW:ToR. They improved it by time, and so will also BioWare do.

 

Balanced PVP? Not even close. Some classes was absolutely unbeatable if played with a sense of skill, while some didn't stand a chance even when mastered. This is actually true. PVP in Vanilla WoW was not balanced at all. Not to mention that it took over a year to actually make things kind of balanced.

 

Different kind of "meters"? No. Damage meters like Recount are add-ons. An add-on is something you add on to your game, to make it better. Add-ons are created by the community. Combat logs are requierd to make add-ons like these and they aren't available yet in SW:ToR. But, people were fine without all those add-ons in the what some call "the best time" of WoW, the start.

 

Bugged raids? There was not a large amount of bugs in the raids on start, but why? Because nearly all fights were tank and spank, exept Ragnaros and Onyxia, and these bosses didn't have any really complex mechanics. With today's standard of boss fights, it's alot harder to create completely bug-free fights. As time goes, BioWare will fix this issue aswell.

 

 

 

I'm getting tierd of people making assumptions that WoW had everything it has today at start, because it didn't. It's been improving, and SW:ToR will do aswell. The developers have just completed an awesome game, that really gives you a relation to your character, your companions and people you interact with during the story-line. All this due to the absolutely awesome work with the voices and quests overall.

 

 

I could make an list what SW:ToR had from the absolute start, that WoW didn't have, but I'll skip that, since it will take ages. Just think of it..

 

Expectations.

 

Largest money investment in history. Largest Dev staff in History. Over 6 years of Dev time.

 

Too much "Story", not enough Game.

 

Pretty much sums things up for me.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Kunra

[Karniel]

 

I find it very odd. I think the lack of MMO experience really shows in this area. Bioware just isn't accustomed to having to interact with their customer at the level that an MMO requires.

 

The above rant is, of course, just one persons opinion -- mine.

 

Unfortunately they have Mythic which should at this point be very familiar with the running of MMO's.

 

Game is awesome before 50 and well polished atleast for me, 1-2 weeks into 50 and you realize there isnt much tto do, and what there is to do is buggy. Which is fine, but next major content patch better have some good stuff. People need grindage at max level, they need reasons to login, to do HM FPs, for things other than 1 item that drops at end.

[Jswizzle]

I'm well past 2 weeks with my level 50 Sage. Sorry to shoot a hole in the theme, but if you haven't had fun in the End Game I think that's on you. I have like 16500 hps right now, so that should give you an idea of what I've been doing since 50.

 

I'll probably get bored within another month or two on my 50. I feel like that's a great investment on my part. Plus I got alts waiting.