HanoverFist Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Nothing and I mean NOTHING will ever stop the QQ. No matter the change/fix/patch/system/content or game even. You simply cannot please all of the people all of the time. Might as well get used to it because it will not change. Edited February 8, 2012 by HanoverFist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkeos Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Apparently, this type of attitude is why we can't have nice things. The lot of you who share this ideology have no bias to complain later, because you do not take the time as being part of the gaming community to make things better. I'll bet none of you vote either, but will scream till the cows come home on how your "constitutional rights" are being trod upon. I was in beta and tested, and would like to point out to you all that testing involved ALL aspects of game, not just that which comes at 50. Suck it up, buttercup and contribute rather than sit back and complain. I usually spend at least have my time on a game's test servers. No access to characters at needed levels, no combat log, no nothing, on top of a download worth about 30 Euro where I live, and a company that ignores all feedback for months and not communicating with the testers at all keeps me from even trying here. Check how your parties and your voting system works in your country before telling us if it makes sense to vote or not. If your powers have the ability to change the are votes are counted in on the fly, or suddenly ignore citizens outside the country voting by mail, that certainly does not speak of a strong democratic tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkZeron Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 What? I am supposed to test content for them? Sure, hire me as QA and i will, but right now i am paying to play this game, and not them paying me to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunstarr Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 So you spend dozens of hours leveling a character on the PTS to have it wiped a week later? Who gives a **** if the character is wiped? ITS A TEST SERVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkeos Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Who gives a **** if the character is wiped? ITS A TEST SERVER. But if you want to test endgame content changes, you need a char able to reach that content, with the correct equipment to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxili Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Sure, let me download the 20gig pts game, level a character to 50, all so I can remain unheard since Bioware has never listened to any test server feedback to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholagar Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Apparently, this type of attitude is why we can't have nice things. The lot of you who share this ideology have no bias to complain later, because you do not take the time as being part of the gaming community to make things better. I'll bet none of you vote either, but will scream till the cows come home on how your "constitutional rights" are being trod upon. I was in beta and tested, and would like to point out to you all that testing involved ALL aspects of game, not just that which comes at 50. Suck it up, buttercup and contribute rather than sit back and complain. This isn't a socialist commune, dude. This is a service we are paying for that we expect a level of competence and quality from. They have more than enough income coming in to pay for testers.... heck they'd find a bunch of willing volunteers if they just offered them free gameplay (15$ a month). Besides, complaining is contributing, its called constructive criticism. I DID beta test... my comments about the crappy UI were ignored. And I'm not sitting back, I'm up and walking away with my money. There's PLENTY of other games out there that are doing this better. So get back to testing their game for them, buttercup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthStalker Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Who gives a **** if the character is wiped? ITS A TEST SERVER. Where not much testing goes on due to the many issues outlined within this thread. Particularly the one you just quoted. You do understand it's not the act of wiping the character, right? No one cares a bit in the world about their characters on the PTS, they're there for the testing. Which isn't possible due to... I kind of feel like a broken record here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 How are we supposed to test 50 content when we can't get copy's or premade characters? Every MMO has a way for you to get Mac level characters for testing....oh other than ToR. Literally none of the stuff is testable unless you want to spend hours leveling a character on the test server. Except the CD change which we all said was fail and terrible, but they pushed it live. This. Ill test all the time but no way in hell im leveling a 50 on the test server. Maybe they should work on this so they can bring this game up to speed with other mmos before even the new mmos coming out outclass it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seuria Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I can understand why anyone would be reluctant to help out if you have to level 50 and Bioware has little history of actually listening to their external testers. In my experience, the best and most polished games are those that have a vigorous testing period filled with those who actually want to improve the game through PTS testing. It just blows my mind they don't have a player copy service or allow access to lvl 50 premades. I should think these features would have appeared at the end of the beta testing to properly test endgame material. Pushing out changes and then gauging how the community at large deals with them seems a disaster in the making. 1.1 Ilum was bad, but without load testing on the PTS something much worse is likely to come along sooner or later. Edited February 8, 2012 by Seuria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logiick Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) OP is the lulz. Oh yeah, we didn't let them know we didn't like the way they were going to "fix" cooldowns. Kind of like we didn't tell them about the 100s of other bugs that have been in since beta. We love being angry with a game we desperately want to like! what exactly are we paying them for? Not a *********** thing. Edited February 8, 2012 by Logiick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtybomb Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Apparently, this type of attitude is why we can't have nice things. The lot of you who share this ideology have no bias to complain later, because you do not take the time as being part of the gaming community to make things better. I'll bet none of you vote either, but will scream till the cows come home on how your "constitutional rights" are being trod upon. I was in beta and tested, and would like to point out to you all that testing involved ALL aspects of game, not just that which comes at 50. Suck it up, buttercup and contribute rather than sit back and complain. Hold on a sec. Sure, a lot of the whining on the forums are some of the most idiotic (and kinda funny) posts I've ever seen, but when people purchase a product and that product doesn't work as intended, people have a right to complain. Don't know about you, but I'm not paying BW $15 per month to work for them beta testing. I don't park my own car once I've paid for a valet and I don't help the chef cook my dinner when I go to a restaurant. I'm happy to give my feedback when BW asks and I don't make a post about every little thing I don't like on the forums. You want to test for them? Cool. Do what you want. But don't sit there and try to convince anyone that they it is our duty to do BW's work for them, and if we don't, we have no right to comment (negative or otherwise) on a product/service that we paid for but isn't working as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keta Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I tested on beta, they ignored most of the input. Why would I test for them now and pay to do so? Oh and the UI changes aren't evident unless your character is advanced. If they want people to test, make it easy for them. They don't, they haven't so they got what they deserved ... no testers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkeos Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 A proper testing environment would require a couple of things: - Easy access - 20GB per test build are not easy access - Information about what is being changed so it can be tested before it goes life (EA Patch notes = finished implementation) - Access to the chars and the equipment needed for testing - Proper tools - There is not even a combat log available in this game. Fraps is not the most comfortable tool for parsing damage, you know. - Proper feedback tools for the testers - Communication between Devs and testers I got my name (real and/or chars) in a couple of games and expansion's credentials over the years. I met Devs from a couple of MMO in person, and I have been invited to game studios on the studio's cost twice as a thank you for my testing. I know there are a couple of people I tested with in other games playing SWTOR who did the same, and who do not care about noodling around on the PTR for EA because EA has shown repeatedly that they do not care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Bond Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 How are we supposed to test 50 content when we can't get copy's or premade characters? Every MMO has a way for you to get Mac level characters for testing....oh other than ToR. Literally none of the stuff is testable unless you want to spend hours leveling a character on the test server. Except the CD change which we all said was fail and terrible, but they pushed it live. ^ this X 100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorusboy Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) To those of you who said they never listen to testers: If they don't want to hear from you, then they wouldn't put polls on forums, they would ask for feedback on message boards, none of it. Why have a guild summit if you don't want to hear from and support your community. As for the character copy, I would suggest to Bioware, in a constructive non-jerk way that giving us premade 50's with a modest gear set to test high level content would be a good way to go in lieu of character copy for the time being. WoW didn't even have PTR's for the longest time and still have one of the longest content rollout calendars to date. The amount of dev response this community has gotten is so above and beyond anything any other MMO has done in recent history without holding a convention in their studio's honor. You could pay a large QA department gobs of money and they still will not find the things that a determined player community will as fast. They play the game and have their ways of playing it that they have been using for years in development in this title that inherantly makes their opinion subjective rather than objective. They, like any other MMO, need the community to interact with the game and provide constructive feedback as to relevant changes that have been made in builds. Testing is never going to be for everyone but if even 1% of the community were to agree to test even for a half hour while the PTR is up on a focused set of issues, that would be 17,000 testers (1.7 million subscribers, do the math) and I guarantee that they will not get everything but a lot of this could be worked out. You pay $15 a month for content, support, and continuous development. Like any company, yes, they are gonna make a profit, but at the end of the day, they need the interaction with the players to make the thing work. If they refuse to listen, then the player base will inevitably dry up but the swiftness of these patch rollouts tells me that they hear our concerns and are bringing them out to the community. If their calendar is anything like I imagine it is, it will go something like this: At launch, you played and at 3 weeks in, you see an imbalance and a bunch of people begin posting. Meetings are held to address numerous issues brought up by the player community and yours gets tossed around for that week, prioritized in terms of how breaky or quick to fix it is. Code, design, or art implement a change the following week that gets rolled out in a build. Because of the nature of a game this size, builds take time and a bulk of time is taken by QA to us analysis tools and their own internal play testing and send any build issues back to code, design, and art. Changes are made and iterated on until 2 weeks later, it is ready for PTR testing. All the while, PTR has been happening for the patch that was rolled out that week so its not like QA or any other department is just sitting on its hands. After all, you want new content, not just fixes. After the build is on PTR for a while, say 1-3 weeks, it is deployed. That gives you, at best, a 3 week turn around for "this is broken" bugs (which I might add they get client and server side fixes for in days, not weeks), but issues for balance and what not could take as long as 6 weeks if not longer by this calendar and that is not even a full set of things that all need to go right to meet whatever internal standards they have to meet in order for an update to be publishable. Making games takes time and refining them takes longer. You want to be a part of the process, be a part of it but don't whine that it isn't to your standards when you don't even give it 5 minutes of your time. Your internet is not so slow that you can't set the PTR client to download while your asleep and in class or at work or whatever. 20GB of hard drive space is typically not a big deal when you have a TB of illegally downloaded movies and TV shows. They have literally hundreds of paid employees working on this and if you think the problem will be solved by hiring more people then you are sadly mistaken. All paying someone does is give you someone that is half as dedicated as a passionate player willing to test that will give you some but not all of the data you need to make the "perfect patch." In the end, you need the player base to get in the game and use it. There are things they can do to allow for testing of upper level content but that is what this post is all about, giving them thoughts and ideas about how to make the experience better and easier to get player feedback. Not so you can tell them what a crap job they do for $15 a month. Hearts!! Ty'kis 50 JC Shadow Tank Edited February 9, 2012 by Aurrelio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Apparently, this type of attitude is why we can't have nice things. The lot of you who share this ideology have no bias to complain later, because you do not take the time as being part of the gaming community to make things better. I'll bet none of you vote either, but will scream till the cows come home on how your "constitutional rights" are being trod upon. I was in beta and tested, and would like to point out to you all that testing involved ALL aspects of game, not just that which comes at 50. Suck it up, buttercup and contribute rather than sit back and complain. Let me get this straight. I have to download a 20 GB client, usually multiple times with changes, and level up a 50 , MULTIPLE times because they wipe them, and then submit feedback that gets ignored, and yet this is the communities fault? The forum will not allow me to use the sort of language you should addressed with , sir or ma'am. There is no character copy. There is no benefit in-game for being a Tester. If I chose to do so, I'm doing it out of the literal desire to see the game improve. When such is ignored, and poorly thought out and implemented changes are pushed through DESPITE what testers there are saying "this is a problem", I no longer see a reason to waste time or energy on testing when the message is clear -- I'm not wanted. For people like you to defend such short-sighted changes by saying the community is lazy is insufferable. For you to respond that you were in the beta, where you certainly saw all of the bugs , and those same bugs STILL exist, and to suggest that the breakdown is in the community and not the QA and testing organs of Bioware, frankly fails the laugh test. There is, thankfully, an ignore function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corebit Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 what exactly are we paying them for? ^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The amount of dev response this community has gotten is so above and beyond anything any other MMO has done in recent history without holding a convention in their studio's honor. ...do you mind if I use this quote? I've never seen someone who is willing to make a deliberately and totally false statement before to prop up a non-argument that I am in awe. STO had better communication than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakamp Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This ^ Also, why should I HAVE to test this game for them now that it is launched? Why has the player base become the pool of BW testers (this is an age old problem with ALL mmorpgs). I pay to play not test. IF BW/EA wants to PAY me to test instead of play I would be more than happy to do this. Until then we are all stuck with short cuts that this industry makes. Period. I have seen it in EVERY MMO I have played for the last 12 years. TL;DR Pay me and I will test untill then deliver a product worthy of my time and treasure! this, why should we help EA without paying us money????? that's too ridiculous. if a product online like SWTOR, in our company, the whole team will be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandorr Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm currently not playing the game, although I am subbed. I'd happily test their game for them, for a fee of course. I have no problems giving non-biased feedback relating to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poirot Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 As has been said before in this thread and probably a myriad of other places the lack of testers is pretty simple matter really. Allow premades or no one will bother, Bioware has no one to blame but themselves for the lack of tester population in this case and to insinuate otherwise is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xneco Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It is not our responsibility to make sure THEIR game works correctly, providing feedback for their game is nice and all... but BioWare putting out a good product sure the hell shouldn't be dependent on customer feedback. BioWare should have the capability of putting out a quality product with ZERO input from us, if they can't... this game is going to last very long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knewt Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Apparently, this type of attitude is why we can't have nice things. The lot of you who share this ideology have no bias to complain later, because you do not take the time as being part of the gaming community to make things better. I'll bet none of you vote either, but will scream till the cows come home on how your "constitutional rights" are being trod upon. I was in beta and tested, and would like to point out to you all that testing involved ALL aspects of game, not just that which comes at 50. Suck it up, buttercup and contribute rather than sit back and complain. This is just wrong on so many levels. Let's start with the basic one. I am not paid to test their content. I pay them to play this game. Expecting me to do more than report bugs in the live game is unrealistic. Bioware needs to understand the MMO community they have joined. In 2012, it is not acceptable to release game breaking bugs to live servers. That might have worked 7-10 years ago when the MMO genre was in its infancy. Now that the genre is maturing, the demands and expectations are greater. The user base is no longer the same 200k people who played Ultima Online, Everquest and World of Warcraft. The MMO market is tens of millions of gamers who have come to expect a certain level of polish in the games they play. Bioware needs to grow their testing methodologies to meet the expectations of their customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzikah Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Why have a guild summit if you don't want to hear from and support your community. Sorry...But this guild summit seems like a complete joke. Instead of wasting a bunch of man hours and money doing this they could just take a few hours and go over the forums The way I see this summit going is....Invite the press and only players/fanboys who would never speak a unkind word about TOR or point out any of the current bugs/issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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