Woodspoon Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) IMO, respeccing is not something that should be done several times a day at a whim. The first respec should be free, then 100,000. Then add another zero every additional time. Make a decision and stick with it or create an alt. ^^^^ This Edited February 9, 2012 by Woodspoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneybinjim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "im tired of replying to everyone that asks "what wrong with it?"...ive explained what I think is wrong in a lengthy post which i also quoted 1-2 pages back for ease of access...at least have the decency to read what has been posted before jumping on the reply button." your right, i read the first page and then posted my comment, however after reading your post, im noy convinced whatsoever. nothing you stated outweighs the benefit you get from choice given by dual specs imo. "First, say you have player A and player B of equal gear and skill in your guild. Player A chooses to dual spec dps/healing while player B hates the feature and only has a DPS spec. Can you honestly say that you would not choose player A over player B (for a dps slot) if given the chance??...the simple fact that you think that you MIGHT need an extra healer at some point in a raid would make you choose player A. This is especially problematic in the case of gunslinger/sniper and sentinel/marauder which can only be DPS and its not really fair to them." this is a spurious arguement tbh, there are only so many jobs required in a raid, the more options avialable the better. if youve ever not been able to raid because your missing healers or a tank, youll know exactly what im talking about here. and heres some info for you - typically there are more dps classes in raids than healers or tanks, there will always be plenty of dps spots avialable. it states what each class can do in the advanced classes before you even create a character, so those who play gunslinger and sniper know what thier class is there for - pure dps only "Seccondly, the fact that you can modify group composition (roles) before each individual encounter (therefore obtaining 100% ideal composition for each) makes raids easier overall and in my eyes, it dumbs down the game. Learning to succeed in less then ideal circumstances is what its all about...at least IMHO" you always field the strongest raid force you can, there are no prizes given for doing it with less than a balanced raid. "Lastly, the realism/immersion factor. This is the most subjective of the 3. Im personally not of the "suspend disbelief" mentality and i find it very unrealistic, changing on the fly i mean. Can a brain surgeon respec to being a heart surgeon on the fly?...i dont think so...even though they are both doctors (class) and surgeons (advanced class). It takes time. The fact that is requires time and credits to do this is the games representation of this. Adds to the RP element and the importance of choice and all that jazz..." to each thier own, you dont want to respec? dont do it. the feature is already in the game regardless, you can already swap specs. its just heavily penalised if you do it often, and awkward to do. give me more choice, and if you dotn want more choice, dont stop others who do. PS dual spec is more then likely inevitable, theres no doubt in my mind that its just one of the features they didnt have ready for release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arngrim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Your solution is to roll an alt? I enjoy playing dps spec on my current character. I tank because my guild needs it. I don't feel like playing for another month to get another 50 just to do what I already enjoy on my Vanguard. I don't mind paying respec costs, but I just feel the 100k per respec is steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XParoleX Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 That attitude carries on to so many things outside the game. Just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you should. Dual specs hurt community. Why? Because when someone needs DPS, they have to group with a DPS class, not one of their 4 buddies that happens to play a hybrid class and can switch at will. Dual Spec would also effectively penalize Sent/Mara AC because the class has only one function. You can throw out the pvp vs pve spec debate, but that's a false argument. Any Sent/Mara tree is effective in both. It's the player & playstyle, with the problems, not the game & spec system. If you find your guild/operation/flashpoint needs different specs level up another toon. You get 8 on the server, so please stop crying about this dead issue. Sorry just because you feel you won't be as viable to parties as DPS if other people can dual spec doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented. Sorry but sometimes I'm required to Tank if our main tank can't make FP/Ops other times I have to be DPS and I don't want to level another character to 50 and gear it just so I can play both roles. Please fix this soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erevan_Kindelar Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Its broken when people beg you to heal for them and you cant because respecing twice a day is 200k+ Respeccing twice a day for 1 week is 14 respecs. At the end of that week, your respec cost counter is reset to 0. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that you are actually respeccing more than twice a day if you are hitting the respec cost cap (just under 100k per respec). If that is the case, then I suggest you pick a spec and stick with it. Bioware have much more important issues to deal with than your complete and utter inability to make a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arngrim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Respeccing twice a day for 1 week is 14 respecs. At the end of that week, your respec cost counter is reset to 0. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that you are actually respeccing more than twice a day if you are hitting the respec cost cap (just under 100k per respec). If that is the case, then I suggest you pick a spec and stick with it. Bioware have much more important issues to deal with than your complete and utter inability to make a decision. Only takes about 4 or 5 respecs to hit the 100k mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxNemhauser Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You can play as a healer or as a dps. Sentinels can only play as dps. Seems fair that you have to pay some cost for that advantage. An advice to you: split the respec cost between the members of your operation, after all - they want you to heal them, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luewen Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 And you just put your finger on it. Those who object to dual spec do so out of childish selfishness. They don't want it; therefore, no one should have it. There is absolutely no logical advantage to not having dual specs, but a lot of advantages to having them: personal convenience, group flexibility, knowledge of multiple specs, and that horrible concept called "fun." Pretty much agreed here. It would be win - win situation to everyone but childish, selfish "#¤%". As of now its already hard enough to find tanks or healers for groups, with dualspec it would ease a lot providing that someone wants to play healer or tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valceanu Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 your right, i read the first page and then posted my comment, however after reading your post, im noy convinced whatsoever. nothing you stated outweighs the benefit you get from choice given by dual specs imo. it wasnt meant to convince anybody...people were asking for reasons and i gave them reasons...then they ignored them because they couldnt counter them. this is a spurious arguement tbh, there are only so many jobs required in a raid, the more options avialable the better. if youve ever not been able to raid because your missing healers or a tank, youll know exactly what im talking about here. and heres some info for you - typically there are more dps classes in raids than healers or tanks, there will always be plenty of dps spots avialable. it states what each class can do in the advanced classes before you even create a character, so those who play gunslinger and sniper know what thier class is there for - pure dps only sorry but so far ive seen plenty of cases where healers and tanks were the ones looking for dps support to run instances...at least on my server. And even if that was not the case what makes it ok to gimp some players and not the others. Going by your logic the devs have stated NO DUAL SPEC so then i guess you should have chosen another game cause it was clear this one doesnt have it you always field the strongest raid force you can, there are no prizes given for doing it with less than a balanced raid. as if gaming communities arent bad enough as it is...always wanting easy modes instead of doing the job with what they have handy. People really need to step up their game. to each thier own, you dont want to respec? dont do it. the feature is already in the game regardless, you can already swap specs. its just heavily penalised if you do it often, and awkward to do. give me more choice, and if you dotn want more choice, dont stop others who do. ironic that you cut the first part of my post out. I think i mentioned something about people using the "dont like it, dont use it" argument somewhere. Regardless, the feature is obviously not in the game since you need to ask for it...so the logical conclusion is that its not penalized, it is in fact working as intended - lets you try a few different builds and correct the occasional mistake. Also, its not a "to each their own issue" really...if you are in my raid group for instance, and i see you switch spec, it detracts from my immersion...so it affects me. PS dual spec is more then likely inevitable, theres no doubt in my mind that its just one of the features they didnt have ready for release. Good for you...last i checked the devs said that they felt it wasnt needed...im gonna go with them if you dont mind. If at some point they decide otherwise so be it...but that is how things are at present Answers in red... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valceanu Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Thing is - respecialisation is actually an abomination in the RPG genre, introduced only in the MMO generation. The whole point of RPG character progression is the difficult decision when choosing certain skills and sacrificing all other skills. This was never meant to be reversible. People have become shockingly lazy and picky these days, demanding that everything is handed them for free and at once. I want to change skills for free! I want to change my class! I don't want to travel more than 20 meters to anywhere! I don't want any story decision have any effect on gameplay, because I don't pay attention! I don't want to look for groups - do it for me! I don't want to look at my screen and play - let addons and macros do it for me! A lot of people don't think too highly of themselves and don't expect to be able to make educated decisions and face the consequences, obviously. You have no idea how many times ive said this my friend. It falls on def ears. All they want is "i win" easy modes. Fact is TOR is more of an RPG then any other MMO to date (story, companions, choices etc)...and they want to ruin it. Id rather they stick to the blandness of WoW, Rift and the like and let us enjoy our mmoRPG. Pretty much agreed here. It would be win - win situation to everyone but childish, selfish "#¤%". As of now its already hard enough to find tanks or healers for groups, with dualspec it would ease a lot providing that someone wants to play healer or tank. its not hard to find tanks and healers at all. Not in my experience. Join bigger guilds, make more friends...take your pick...the solutions are out there. Being social is a prerogative if you play an MMO... tanks and healers are out there in bundles, you people are just to lazy to be bothered. Edited February 9, 2012 by Valceanu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDangerously Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Dual spec needs to be implemented as soon as possible. Anyone who doesnt agree with this has no idea what they are talking about and still lives in that stage where "i earned everything the hard way blarg blarg i walked uphill to school both ways blarg blarg"/ I am extremely happy they are implementing this as it should be understood that sometimes, the way of the group outweighs that of the individual. I as a shadows dps, would gladly tank heroics for groups if i could easily swap specs without paying hundreds of thousands of credits a week to do. This would provide more groups for those wishing to do heroics as well as more freedom for people to play the spec they enjoy. I will be duely gratified when they DON'T implement this; you easy-moders need to quit crying and learn to play these games the way they were intended. Your constant whining, "me-first" attitudes are what are ruining MMO's today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonguy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I will be duely gratified when they DON'T implement this; you easy-moders need to quit crying and learn to play these games the way they were intended. Your constant whining, "me-first" attitudes are what are ruining MMO's today... Exactly ... although it makes us Noobs ... proper actual selfish noobs dude ... for realz! Peace out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohex Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It will always creep me out how some people don't think its a big deal to spend 70 hours leveling an alt just to do something different. Don't think I haven't done it, just think about what 70 hours does outside of this game... There's really no reason not to make respeccing easy when it makes the lives of some players massively better, and somewhat offends the sensibilities of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blotter Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) ...in fact I would definately say that leveling as a healer has actually made me much at it then I would have otherwise been. This^. Watch how fast you get kicked from group when you fail for being some shlub who hasn't practiced how to heal and just respec'd so you could get into the group in the first place. Spec is a CHOICE about what ROLE you want to play. If you want to be able to respec willy-nilly, then BW might as well just give everyone all the talents in all three of their trees and skip the whole talent tree/spec thing altogether. Moreover, if you want to be able to respec wily-nilly so you can more quickly farm the FPs/OPs, then you SHOULD have to pay a hefty price for what essentially amounts to buying your way into runs so yuo can get more lootz. Edited February 9, 2012 by Blotter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickletime Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Its broken when people beg you to heal for them and you cant because respecing twice a day is 200k+ the cost resets once a week... if you are getting respecs that high u are doing something wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneybinjim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "it wasnt meant to convince anybody...people were asking for reasons and i gave them reasons...then they ignored them because they couldnt counter them" your comments weren’t ignored, every one of your points has been countered at some point in this thread, and all of them in my original reply to your post. "sorry but so far ive seen plenty of cases where healers and tanks were the ones looking for dps support to run instances...at least on my server. And even if that was not the case what makes it ok to gimp some players and not the others. Going by your logic the devs have stated NO DUAL SPEC so then i guess you should have chosen another game cause it was clear this one doesnt have it" so your saying that there aren’t enough dps classes and then going on to say that dps classes are gimped? Your contradicting yourself here. I enjoy playing this game so yes it was a good choice, I do however want a few things in it to change, the addition of dual speccing being just one of those. Lots of others who play also wish the same, hence the many threads on the subject. My guess is, dual speccing will end up in the game sooner rather than later. "as if gaming communities arent bad enough as it is...always wanting easy modes instead of doing the job with what they have handy. People really need to step up their game." Brilliant! Lets go attempt that mob that’s killed us countless times with a gimped raid because its more challenging with no healers! "ironic that you cut the first part of my post out. I think i mentioned something about people using the "dont like it, dont use it" argument somewhere. Regardless, the feature is obviously not in the game since you need to ask for it...so the logical conclusion is that its not penalized, it is in fact working as intended - lets you try a few different builds and correct the occasional mistake. Also, its not a "to each their own issue" really...if you are in my raid group for instance, and i see you switch spec, it detracts from my immersion...so it affects me." I did not include the first part of your post because it was not relevant to what I was trying to say. I did reiterate the “don’t like it don’t use it” theme because I believe it is a very valid point. The “feature” I was referring to at this point was respeccing, not dual specs, your getting confused here I think. The current system does indeed (quite heavily) penalise respeccing and the only reason its “working as intended” is because bioware like to use it as a credit sink. "Good for you...last i checked the devs said that they felt it wasnt needed...im gonna go with them if you dont mind. If at some point they decide otherwise so be it...but that is how things are at present" Personally I have not seen any post from the devs stating this, and even if that’s the case, with enough people asking for it on the forums, they will change their mind on the subject, almost guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneybinjim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "This^. Watch how fast you get kicked from group when you fail for being some shlub who hasn't practiced how to heal and just respec'd so you could get into the group in the first place." you say that like its hard to learn how to play a different role in an mmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonguy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It will always creep me out how some people don't think its a big deal to spend 70 hours leveling an alt just to do something different. Don't think I haven't done it, just think about what 70 hours does outside of this game... There's really no reason not to make respeccing easy when it makes the lives of some players massively better, and somewhat offends the sensibilities of others. It's quite a large shift in game dynamics rather than an offence to sensibilities ... there are good reasons for it, but there are also good reasons not to do it beyond people just being awkward or difficult. It's also a good time sync for the game and keeps lower levels active to have people rolling alts ... obviously in games as old as WoW all but end game tends to be trivial, so expanding capabilities at end game is key. I'd say dual spec later when the core game has died as with WoW, just not right now, the game is a little too young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valceanu Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 so your saying that there aren’t enough dps classes and then going on to say that dps classes are gimped? Your contradicting yourself here. I enjoy playing this game so yes it was a good choice, I do however want a few things in it to change, the addition of dual speccing being just one of those. Lots of others who play also wish the same, hence the many threads on the subject. My guess is, dual speccing will end up in the game sooner rather than later. Now youre mixing things up and putting words in my mouth. There were 2 distinct statements. First was meant to illustrate that there are plenty of tanks and healers around unlike other mmorpgs. The second was aimed at the gunslinger/sentinel aspect. With dual spec they are being gimped. No question about it. You said that its in the advance class description so people know it when they choose...and i replied that dual speccing ISNT LISTED in game systems so you SHOULDNT expect it...if we go by the same logic. Brilliant! Lets go attempt that mob that’s killed us countless times with a gimped raid because its more challenging with no healers! Blatant exaggerations only make your points less credible. If you have 1 extra tank instead of a dps you should be able to beat the encounter anyway without that person having to re-spec, just by using an offensive stance so to speak. I did not include the first part of your post because it was not relevant to what I was trying to say. I did reiterate the “don’t like it don’t use it” theme because I believe it is a very valid point. I already demonstrated it was not a valid point because by not using it you gimp yourself. The simple fact that it exists more or less forces you to use it. The “feature” I was referring to at this point was respeccing, not dual specs, your getting confused here I think. The current system does indeed (quite heavily) penalise respeccing and the only reason its “working as intended” is because bioware like to use it as a credit sink. Or maybe because in this game CHOICE matters. Unlike other bland mmo's, this is actually an rpg to boot. Personally I have not seen any post from the devs stating this, and even if that’s the case, with enough people asking for it on the forums, they will change their mind on the subject, almost guaranteed. I have no reason to lie about it...my opinion wouldnt change regardless of the devs standpoint. Look around and youll find the quote if you dont belive me. As for them changing their mind based on forum whiners...please. Forum users are a minority of the total player base, all be it a vocal minority that constantly whines about the game not being EXACTLY how they want it. Like another poster has already said...maybe it will come when the game gets older and most of the playerbase is already at top level just doing endgame stuff...but not as soon as you expect id wager. there we go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brittaintrail Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Assuming they finish balancing...I think one respec. Endofstory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodulo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 As a pve operations primary healer I have this to say... I am a rabid pvp'er, on my way to valor 55 and to 60 hopefully soon. The current valor incentives in warzones harshly favors damage roles in the effect of 20-25% more valor per match if I am damage vs. heal talented in my experience. I re-talent for pvp several times a week for the valor incentives in said warzones because if I don't I watch dps based classes fly past me to valor 60. This is not equality. If you must charge me for this broken valor system to re talent then please create a "memory talent" feature so I don't have to switch the hotbars and all my keybinds on my keyboard and mouse each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinisterSniper Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 the cost resets once a week... if you are getting respecs that high u are doing something wrong Wrong, you get ONE free respec a week (or maybe its going a week without respecing, since I didn't get one Tues.). The price does not reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looneybinjim Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) at the end of the day, dual specs (or vartaions of) work in every other mmo i have played, they offer the player more choice of playstyle, more freedom to play how they want to, and give raiders more options. even the classes with only dps specs will benefit because they have 3 specs also, so they have a variation of ways to play. and you can call the people who ask for change, whiners, as much as you want. some surely are, just as many as those who oppose thier ideas are just as bad. the fact is without people stating what they want, things would never get changed, the game would not evolve or improve and would eventually die. and the forum users may well be a minority of the player base, but ill tell you right now from experiance that they are the ones who get changes made in game. now i could bandy this back and forward with you all day but when you get down to it, the pros for dual spec far outweigh the cons. dual specs are almost definately going to happen at some point, i would be very surprised if they arent introduced to the game within 6 months. Edited February 9, 2012 by looneybinjim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sowwy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Every single person advocating against dual spec will be some of the first to take advantage of it when its released. I can smell the hypocrisy. Edited February 9, 2012 by Sowwy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodulo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 at the end of the day, dual specs (or vartaions of) work in every other mmo i have played, they offer the player more choice of playstyle, more freedom to play how they want to, and give raiders more options. even the classes with only dps specs will benefit because they have 3 specs also, so they have a variation of ways to play. and you can call the people who ask for change, whiners, as much as you want. some surely are, just as many as those who oppose thier ideas are just as bad. the fact is without people stating what they want, things would never get changed, the game would not evolve or improve and would eventually die. and the forum users may well be a minority of the player base, but ill tell you right now from experiance that they are the ones who get changes made in game. now i could bandy this back and forward with you all day but when you get down to it, the pros for dual spec far outweigh the cons. dual specs are almost definately going to happen at some point, i would be very surprised if they arent introduced to the game within 6 months. Fixing pvp valor incentives for healing would solve the problem for many of us. Several of the healers whom are 'hardcore' pvp'ers in my guild feel the same way. I would love to fill my trinity role in all aspects, in a FAIR manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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