The MMO genre needs to stop looking backwards.

[CyberData]

WoW was too phenominally successful to ignore.

 

It set the bar.

 

Players vote with their wallets/purses and guess what?

 

WoW has been king.

 

Don't blame devs for giving players what they think they want. Blame players for not looking outside the "WoW" box.

 

I want an MMO that's themepark leveling and sandbox endgame.

[VenthiosLestaran]

I got about half way down this well designed rant and realized one thing.

 

THIS HAS ALL BEEN DONE ALREADY SIR, you missed the boat by a couple years.

 

The game you are looking for was called Star Wars Galaxies, and it pretty much was SimSTARWARS. I loved the game, and I agree with you that some people just want to RP in a vast world.

 

Here is the overall issue you will always run into.

 

VISION + MARKETING = Sad Designer.

 

In the end if a Marketing team and Production Manager doesn't like a mechanic or vision it is yanked.

 

NO SANDBOX MMO will ever touch the success that WoW has had, and in the end that is what every publisher wants from their titles. MONEY!

 

When you can get the Marketing / Producers / Designers all on the same page, MAYBE you will get the game you want.

 

I kind of wish the Genre would stop reaching for what WoW had. It is not feasible. This is already occurring however. There are several companies that are breaking away from the "Reach for the WoWstars" model of MMO and heading in new directions. Action based combat, reactive combat, no leveling, no grinding, sandbox themes such as building castles/keeps to defend. In coming years, we will not see another Themepark MMO for quite some time.

[Ansultares]

NO SANDBOX MMO will ever touch the success that WoW has had, and in the end that is what every publisher wants from their titles. MONEY!

In the same sense, WoW wouldn't have become a behemoth if it released as themepark as it is today.

 

Similarly, if WAR had designed their zones to be a little more sandbox, and hadn't made the folly of trying to slap on DAoC RvR at the request of whiny beta testers expecting DAoC2, it would still be running strong.

 

Great detail was put into the WAR world zones, but the game couldn't carry the weight its marketing team asked it to by selling it as the RvR game it never really was meant to be.

 

In coming years, we will not see another Themepark MMO for quite some time.

I'm sure we will, but hopefully the ones we do see will give a greater appreciation for that sandbox feel.

 

I was discussing vanilla WoW content in another thread, and after throwing out over a dozen examples from WoW, realized that every single example I listed shared two characteristics; they were well steeped in lore, either directly from the Warcraft games or, presumably, from Warcraft novels and/or the developers' own story; and they were all incomplete at the time of release.

 

Running down the list, it was amazing to see how much of this "incomplete" content was later expanded upon. I think in many ways it was a much better approach than releasing only with "complete" content.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ansultares

[Andryah]

I keep hearing its a niche market, but what I haven't seen is any sort of proof.

 

The last time anyone even seriously attempted to design a sandbox MMO, a 250k subscriber base was a 'huge game.'

 

 

The Market speaks for itself.

 

The 800 lb gorilla in the sandbox market for MMOs is EVE. It has done a good job of carving out the niche and maintaining it, even with all their serious player alienating behaviors.

 

That said, it's quite small by today's MMO standards in terms of player base and is a very small fraction of the total MMO market. The point is though, they have been very successful, yet you do not see other companies jumping on that MMO bandwagon, but you do see them heavily propagating the themepark MMOs. Why is that? Market research. They analyze and then work to exploit a TAM (total available market) to get as big a share as they can.

 

The TAM for themepark MMOs is very large. The TAM for sandbox MMOs is very small. The TAM for old school (pre WoW) MMOs is also very small. As is the market for dread-PvP free for all MMOs. WoW played a very heavy role in growing the MMO TAM into one that is dominated by players that want more casual theme park based MMO play. It is what it is.

 

Now, if you have a different sandbox MMO you would like to reference to try to demonstrate that what the OP maps out is not a niche in the MMO market place, I'm willing to hear you out.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Andryah

[Elkard]

The new hybrid era? You can always do what BG did: surround yourself with like minded, creative people, and present your plan to investors until you find the ones who will take a chance. Then keep pushing the envelop to move past the competition. Marketing is key in any successful venture. Often when people say, and are deeply sure of themselves, that something can't be done, someone will find a way to do it and make it pay off.

[Toxophile]

I get closer and closer to joining one of the swgEMU servers. I would take SWG pre-CURB over ToR any day of the week. Or over any other 'mmo' right now. Ideally though, they would take the ToR polish, combat, pvp, and engine and wrap it up in the original SWG. Give us 32 professions (no "levels") and the option to play without ever pulling a trigger or waving a sword around.

 

ToR will be a success as a themepark, but's thats all it will be. It will always be overshadowed by wow, and never rise above any of the other themepark mmo's out there and on the horizon. It's single distinguishing feature will be it's voice acting. That's the first thing people will talk about. Now, 3 years from now, who knows. Maybe with new planets will come player housing, a totally new, totally different (and therefore interesting) crafting system, a more open space game.....

 

None of the mmo's mentioned in this thread are any better. Yeah, they migth have different polish, or different features, or different engines. But they are all themeparks! The korean one could be a hit, but it suffers from elfdwarfitis. We want a freaking sci-fi mmo Devs!!

[Kozzmozz]

WoW was too phenominally successful to ignore.

 

It set the bar.

 

Players vote with their wallets/purses and guess what?

 

WoW has been king.

 

Don't blame devs for giving players what they think they want. Blame players for not looking outside the "WoW" box.

 

I want an MMO that's themepark leveling and sandbox endgame.

 

WoW is a hit since it was the first mmo in its genre.

It was a hype that got people into mmo's who havent been in mmo's before since it seemed everyone was playing so it must be good. every new kid knows WoW, altough they never seen it nor have they played it, but they hear it from other kids. MMORPG will always be affiliated with WoW.

 

When I told my kid, I was gonna play SWTOR and told him about it, he said : Ah something like WoW. He doesnt even have a computer (he plays on WII & ps2) he knew about it (he's only 13) from other kids.

 

How many times did any of you had to explain an mmorpg to someone else if he doesnt know what kind of games those are? Myself, i say ah its a game like World of Warcraft (you cant say WoW then) , and suddenly they know what it is.

 

In this way it will continuously attract new players since it has a mystic aura around it (millions of people play & have played before you, it exists for X years, unbeatable in its genre,...) .

[VenthiosLestaran]

I'm sure we will, but hopefully the ones we do see will give a greater appreciation for that sandbox feel.

 

I should have said "Pure Themepark". Yes, we will see hybrids.

[Mackuss]

I like OP's post.

 

well done.

[Mackuss]

Also, OP - the game looks absolutely, utterly, completely, and 100% retarded, but the combat system in Tara Online is where MMOs need to go I think. Look it up.

[Mackuss]

But not everyone's story need revolve around combat -- a lot of people might get their kicks out of homesteading, farming, milling, weaving, serving as a castle steward, a politician, etc

 

OP, do me now.

[Clasbyte]

I'll take some Dual Targeting while you're at it.

 

Like Vanguard i take that too

 

@TE

You have basically described UO, but that is in fact ancient history. So instead of looking forward they take some tricks out of the grandmasters book and learn there lessons from the past.

[gregordunbar]

An excellent post based on your opinion. You, need a game like that. The vast majority of MMORPG players however dont care one bit about those types of styles which is why sandbox MMORPGs are not made anymore. SWG should have been the first MMORPG to top 1 million players in North America, it didnt even do that worldwide. It failed because it was a sandbox. Sandbox does not = hard, sandbox = empty and deviod of actual content. Players had to create it and while those that played SWG loved it, they were a very small portion of the MMORPG player base which is an even smaller portion of the current player base.

 

And no, minecraft has no bearing on the MMORPG market, it is not even a RPG. Oh wait I know, lets compare the popularity of Angry Birds to the direction flight simulators should go. After all, birds fly, as do the planes in flight sims.

 

You know, the Sims games are still the most selling games in PC history, its popularity exploded on PLAYER made content like clothing and furniture and has been doing this for around a decade...that doesnt mean MMORPGs must take that route.

 

Player created content will always only appeal to the smaller portion of the player base because its generic in a persistent world...it works with single player games, some multi-player games but for a pay to play game...bleh, no way to maintain the story, no way to control the quality of content, compatability issues left and right and when it comes right down to it...not worth paying a monthly fee when better is available for free.

 

And THAT is why Raph Koster has been unsuccessfully trying to get funding for his user generated virtual worlds game since 2006...not just because he makes piss poor games and no one wants to work with him...the idea blows on a massive scale, so he had to scale it down from a MMORPG to a flash based PoS mini game.

[Lethality]

An excellent post based on your opinion. You, need a game like that. The vast majority of MMORPG players however dont care one bit about those types of styles which is why sandbox MMORPGs are not made anymore. SWG should have been the first MMORPG to top 1 million players in North America, it didnt even do that worldwide. It failed because it was a sandbox. Sandbox does not = hard, sandbox = empty and deviod of actual content. Players had to create it and while those that played SWG loved it, they were a very small portion of the MMORPG player base which is an even smaller portion of the current player base.

 

And no, minecraft has no bearing on the MMORPG market, it is not even a RPG. Oh wait I know, lets compare the popularity of Angry Birds to the direction flight simulators should go. After all, birds fly, as do the planes in flight sims.

 

You know, the Sims games are still the most selling games in PC history, its popularity exploded on PLAYER made content like clothing and furniture and has been doing this for around a decade...that doesnt mean MMORPGs must take that route.

 

Player created content will always only appeal to the smaller portion of the player base because its generic in a persistent world...it works with single player games, some multi-player games but for a pay to play game...bleh, no way to maintain the story, no way to control the quality of content, compatability issues left and right and when it comes right down to it...not worth paying a monthly fee when better is available for free.

 

And THAT is why Raph Koster has been unsuccessfully trying to get funding for his user generated virtual worlds game since 2006...not just because he makes piss poor games and no one wants to work with him...the idea blows on a massive scale, so he had to scale it down from a MMORPG to a flash based PoS mini game.

 

I think you have a shock to your system coming.

 

YOU will be the niche soon - the "gamer" who wants to be the "hero" and play 1 style of "game".

 

Make no mistake, the next generation of MMOs will be casual, mainstream, and absolutely dwarf current MMO player numbers because they won't just be created for "gamers". They will be worlds first, where players can take on any role or persona they want, and combat is just one minor part of that. Your predictable "hero game" will be in there, but just a tiny part of the bigger world.

 

You can choose or not to believe me, but Titan is just such a game. You can run a bakery and have an equally fleshed out path to progression and inter-dependency with other players as anyone else. All on your terms.

 

The future games are MUCH closer to a sandbox than a theme park.

 

Remember: you will be the niche.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Lethality

[Dire-Wolf]

I think the perfect mmo would be one that combines both themepark and sandbox elements and I think that because of the setting TOR can be that game.

 

Would it really be hard for BioWare to add a few wide open planets where people can build houses, towns and the like on? To greatly expand crafting so our characters are the actual crafters instead of just sending companions off to do things, even if it's only on those sandbox planets?

 

It might take a while to fully implement but the payoff would be worth it.

[gregordunbar]

I think you have a shock to your system coming.

 

YOU will be the niche soon - the "gamer" who wants to be the "hero" and play 1 style of "game".

 

Make no mistake, the next generation of MMOs will be casual, mainstream, and absolutely dwarf current MMO player numbers because they won't just be created for "gamers". They will be worlds first, where players can take on any role or persona they want, and combat is just one minor part of that. Your predictable "hero game" will be in there, but just a tiny part of the bigger world.

 

You can choose or not to believe me, but Titan is just such a game. You can run a bakery and have an equally fleshed out path to progression and inter-dependency with other players as anyone else. All on your terms.

 

The future games are MUCH closer to a sandbox than a theme park.

 

Remember: you will be the niche.

 

if I had a dollar for every post I have read about the "upcoming" game thats going to destroy everything else I could...start my own company and make a 200 million dollar MMORPG...

 

No game is going to come out and make the over 100 million people that play MMORPGs right now, niche players.

Edited February 8, 2012 by gregordunbar

[jdela]

What you are asking for will most likely never happen from a big name MMO. You can't spend 20+ million dollars (or 200 million) taking a giant risk. Just look at these forums, look at Rift's forums, etc. Like it or not WoW is the 700 billion ton gorilla in the room and as much as you may want to ignore it, it is a 700 billion ton gorilla and you have to stare at it.

 

People can sit here and say that they hate WoW all day long, but guess where they go back to? WoW. So until something is more successful (I don't see that happening) or until WoW burns out in 7 - 10 years you will be seeing the same type of MMO with minor deviations.

 

You wanted something different? Why didn't you play Vanguard? Heck, why don't we all go and subscribe to Vanguard right now? Or we can all go play EVE. There are alternatives out there, but we tend to flock together because we want to play with lots of people or we don't really want what we say we want. Money talks and it keeps saying that the WoW model is great and successful, keep feeding us more please.

 

Here is a great alternative: A tale in the desert http://www.atitd.com/. It is pretty darn interesting. But ultimately we want to kill things for new shinies.

[PorkinsSauce]

What are you talking about?

 

-Describe the ways people used to grief others. I am asking for specifics here. it cannot be pvp, since it was a flag system. So what do you mean that crafters and people were camped and griefed?

 

Well...in the pre CU one of the primary ways people were griefed was flagging them or making them go "overt" basically making them pvp active and a viable target. This was done a variety of ways. Essentially a player could be forced to be attackable in pvp without intending too.

 

I personally witnessed in the PRE CU on the server Scylla a group of griefers who made thousands (literally) of mines and planted them at a very popular spot for crafter tents. In the early days (pre cu) If you stepped on a mine your pvp flag was automatically activated. This then made it impossible for crafters to get to their tents to restock their vendors. they would literally be blown up...if somehow they survived the griefers were nearby to /headshot them. This went on for weeks. Thus effectively choking off the entire economy.

 

Also "clone camping" was a very common form of greifing in pre cu swg. clone centers is where you rez'd after a death. When your rez'd your pvp flag was still active and you could be immediately killed over and over etc...

 

There were two skills knockdown and dizzy that if applied to you could incapicitate your character indefenitly. There were no diminishing returns on this. This was often used by griefers to kill you so that you could then be clone camped non stop until they got tired or bored.

 

Krayt Dragon scales allowed crafters to create weapons that were extremely over powered which of course all griefers used to their advantages to do the things I listed above.

 

Bottom line is SWG is over and done with. I just am pointing out that those who romanticize the Pre CU either "A" didnt play during that time "B" have short memories or "C" was a greifer themselves, and are looking to relive fond memories

 

Those are a couple of examples for you.

[gurugeorge]

Sandbox games all revolves around griefing each other.

 

Yeah this seems to be the problem - otoh it might just be a feature of the big "surviving" (and indeed thriving) sandbox (EVE Online) and the true sandboxes that have recently been made (Darkfall, Mortal Online).

 

Xsyon looked promising, but it looks like it's just too low budget and idiosyncratic. But it had the right idea of fighting not being the sole means of progression.

 

True sandboxes, if they're not to devolve to giant communal gankfests, have to have more than just combat, or even just combat and crafting. They need lots of "things to do together".

 

On the whole I agree that themeparks generally make better hamster wheels than sandboxes, and are more suited to casual play. But the old idea of an MMORPG wasn't a hamster wheel (lots of jags of pleasurable rewards for lever-pulling) it was more the idea of a virtual world where you lived a virtual, "second life", and had fulfillment from interacting with the game environment and with other people there. (In fact, Second Life is probably the biggest true sandbox out there at the moment, it's just that it doesn't have any combat, which makes it, well, a bit boring - also, it's probably not enough of an escape from "normal" life for most of us here.)

 

I never played SWG in its heyday, but I've followed Raph Koster's blog and writings for ages, and it's clear he's a game design genius; and it seems to me all the game initially needed was its numerous bugs fixing. It was really a sort of accident of greed on Sony's part that ruined it. It came out before WoW, and was actually a huge success in pre-WoW terms; it's just that WoW's mega-success filled SoE's eyes with dollar signs, so they WoW-ified SWG in a futile attempt to force it to become a mega cash-cow like WoW, thereby alienating most of the playerbase it actually had. Sad, sad story.

 

Yes, a big-budget sanbox would be something to see, and I think it could be successful so long as it had enough to keep casual players interested (both soloists and casual players who like to team up).

 

I might suggest that on top of the sandbox element it had a heavily instanced PUG-friendly casual soloer's/teamer's game, like CoX was. That would probably keep everyone happy.

[TheSwamper]

I agree with your points about the trinity system. It's silly and definitely not something all MMOs should use.

 

The sandbox and housing points? Meh.

 

I'd like to see some mini-games maybe, but being able to play house dress up holds no interest for me.

[Jumajin]

I think you have a shock to your system coming.

 

YOU will be the niche soon - the "gamer" who wants to be the "hero" and play 1 style of "game".

 

Make no mistake, the next generation of MMOs will be casual, mainstream, and absolutely dwarf current MMO player numbers because they won't just be created for "gamers". They will be worlds first, where players can take on any role or persona they want, and combat is just one minor part of that. Your predictable "hero game" will be in there, but just a tiny part of the bigger world.

 

You can choose or not to believe me, but Titan is just such a game. You can run a bakery and have an equally fleshed out path to progression and inter-dependency with other players as anyone else. All on your terms.

 

The future games are MUCH closer to a sandbox than a theme park.

 

Remember: you will be the niche.

 

 

I have several friends (and also business associates) that are Devs, Game Designers, or Executive Producers at studios such as NCSoft, Blizzard, and Cryptic. You are damned close to what they have said to me over the past year in various chit-chats.

[Hambunctious]

MMOs have to have both themepark, and sandbox.

 

I liked SWG post NGE.

 

I liked the quests the first time around, I liked crafting, I liked the crafting material system, I liked the economy, I liked housing, I loved the appearance tab, I loved space combat, I loved crafting ship parts, I loved beast mastery pets, I loved being able to go anywhere, and ride over mountains, I loved the ease of getting standard socketed gear, and I loved getting rare armor appearances crafted, I loved GCW cities, I loved my entertainer who actually put music together with a holo band, who mixed, and matched flourishes with band macros.

 

I hated the buff wars, I hated to have to go get buffs every time I wanted to do anything in pve, or pvp.

 

Hmmm, I liked, or loved much more than I hated in SWG.

 

DCUO is really a themepark, but it has really good quest stories with voice acting too. The combat system takes getting used to, but I enjoy the game overall.

[areto]

The GW2 advertising has all those things, it's almost like a direct response to your concerns. They don't have the trinity, you change the environment around you by completing quests and pvp. So maybe give that a look. Lots of people will only every like the very classic style MMOs though I'm sure.

 

The reason I say the GW2 advertising is because sw:tor (and all the others really) has taught us very much to take that stuff with a grain of salt, even the in-game graphics were different, and even playing the beta had fancy features missing from the release game.

 

Each to their own though.

[gregordunbar]

I have several friends (and also business associates) that are Devs, Game Designers, or Executive Producers at studios such as NCSoft, Blizzard, and Cryptic. You are damned close to what they have said to me over the past year in various chit-chats.

 

Thats great!

 

I also happen to know people and (internet associates) that are devs, game designers or executive producers at studios such as Blizzard, EA, Sony, Bullfrog as well as the President of the United States, the acting director of the FBI and Max Von Sydow and Tony Randall and they say you are totally wrong. I seen it, over IM chats!

 

Either that or its just from almost every single MMORPG that will be coming out over the next year and a half that says the industry isnt changing that much...

[VenthiosLestaran]

The GW2 advertising has all those things, it's almost like a direct response to your concerns. They don't have the trinity, you change the environment around you by completing quests and pvp. So maybe give that a look. Lots of people will only every like the very classic style MMOs though I'm sure.

 

The reason I say the GW2 advertising is because sw:tor (and all the others really) has taught us very much to take that stuff with a grain of salt, even the in-game graphics were different, and even playing the beta had fancy features missing from the release game.

 

Each to their own though.

 

Everyone will enjoy their own thing. GW2 offers a wide range of features off the standard beaten MMO path, and I'm sure lots will enjoy it. With it being B2P people can retain their SWTOR subs and still sample around. It's a great idea.