The good old days when people had to work for gear

[Kanana]

Maybe BW should make a "hardcore" server, where everything takes 10 times longer. They could port all those kids who don't work for a living and want to feel as if they are special for doing nothing but grinding in a game over and leave a fun game for the adults who know that a game should be fun, not more work.

[Darkwere]

All these people ************ about Bioware giving the casual gamer a competitive chance at gear is really annoying.

 

Only one thing to remember here, it's about making money as a gaming company, and for all the WoW haters....Wow proved one thing, you can make billions by ignoring the hardcore gamer and we are all better for it. Hate on WoW all you want, but the truth is without them, the MMO community would still be running around the 1-2 million mark, instead of the 14+ million that now enjoy MMORPG playstyle. (speaking of only US numbers)

 

In order for Bioware to make the changes that need to be made to this game, they will have to appeal to the casual gamer not the hardcore, hardcore gamers don't make these mammoth gaming projects enough money to keep the floating anymore, the industry has to have the casual gamer for profit margins and stock holders.

 

It's a business, in the old days it was a leap of faith....those days are gone, welcome to the real world!!

[Sumire]

I remember PVP in Star Wars Galaxies were you did it because you wanted to and it was fun, not for the gear as there was no PVP gear rewards in the early days. Edited February 7, 2012 by Sumire

[Ceogar]

I remember PVP in Star Wars Galaxies were you did it because you wanted to and it was fun, not for the gear as there was no PVP gear rewards in the early days.

 

Exactly, there was no mindless grind, you could choose if you wanted to be imp or Rebel.. it was awezome :/

[Roak]

I remember PVP in Star Wars Galaxies were you did it because you wanted to and it was fun, not for the gear as there was no PVP gear rewards in the early days.

 

there was pvp gear, buyable with faction currency but the stats on it were worse than crafted gear (stormtrooper for imps and rebel gear (pic here)) so not a lot of people wore it.

 

that's how it should be done though, make faction selection a dynamic in game choice rather than a character creation screen choice and the server population will manage itself.

 

and making pvp flag optional, but making any faction related actions auto flag you is better than having separate server rulesets.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Roak

[Sumire]

Maybe BW should make a "hardcore" server, where everything takes 10 times longer. They could port all those kids who don't work for a living and want to feel as if they are special for doing nothing but grinding in a game over and leave a fun game for the adults who know that a game should be fun, not more work.

 

It is a MMO after all and it is all about getting better gear, that is how they are designed, a time sink, hell even FPS games have a grind now.

 

People always like getting better gear, it is part of the draw of the game, and to get that gear you are required to do something, in PVPs case, win games. That winning may or may not take you longer than someone else doing the same thing (you get something for losing even). If it takes you longer they will have better gear than you for a while. That "while" can vary depending on how much you are able to play and such things as server inbalances etc.

 

I think the trick here is not to make the grind too long, that way you won't be outgeared for as long, and not make the gear too much better than the lower set, just something so people want to continue playing, paying their sub and have fun.

[Asnine]

It is a MMO after all and it is all about getting better gear, that is how they are designed, a time sink, hell even FPS games have a grind now.

 

People always like getting better gear, it is part of the draw of the game, and to get that gear you are required to do something, in PVPs case, win games. That winning may or may not take you longer than someone else doing the same thing (you get something for losing even). If it takes you longer they will have better gear than you for a while. That "while" can vary depending on how much you are able to play and such things as server inbalances etc.

 

I think the trick here is not to make the grind too long, that way you won't be outgeared for as long, and not make the gear too much better than the lower set, just something so people want to continue playing, paying their sub and have fun.

 

 

This is a well reasoned argument.

 

Should there be a gear gap? Probably yes, as for many, many people it's the "reward" for putting in so much "effort" (lol).

 

Should the gap be as large as it is? No.

[Sumire]

there was pvp gear, buyable with faction currency but the stats on it were worse than crafted gear (stormtrooper for imps and rebel gear (pic here)) so not a lot of people wore it.

 

that's how it should be done though, make faction selection a dynamic in game choice rather than a character creation screen choice and the server population will manage itself.

 

and making pvp flag optional, but making any faction related actions auto flag you is better than having separate server rulesets.

 

I don't even remember that gear when I played. I do remember buying a ATST to be fair, so that must have been faction gear. I think you are right though, there must have been some but no one wore is as the crafters made better gear. The crafting in SWG was pretty epic though.

[Patrickgf]

I sir for one was never happy about gear in Vanilla WoW. Yes I want to sit in my parents basement and play non stop without showering for months so I can get Field Marshall gear. Or try to get 40 ppl to show up on time to a RAID week after week. F THAT SHIZ x 1000

[sleightly]

Remember back in the good old days of PVP MUDs where you'd lose all of your gear?

 

However, as a consolation prize you'd also lose experience and "valor"

 

PVP with zero consequence is like playing poker for points. It's a totally different game.

 

Bring hardcore pvp servers to carebear games and make the "pros" cry.

 

Thanks

Edited February 7, 2012 by sleightly

[vindianajones]

Remember the good old days of Vanilla Wow and EQ when you actually had to work for the gear you earned. And you were HAPPY to do so!

 

Remember farming countless hours of Alterac Valley turning in Wolf Pelts for reputation so you could, hopefully, a few weeks or a month or 2 down the road have a cool epic weapon!

LOBO!

 

And the gear meant something!

 

It wasn't something that people complained about and demanded.

 

Remember the good old days when you first reached max level in your class, you got roflstomped in PVP by players that rightfully outgeared you.

 

And you wouldnt complain once. It was understood. You were a newb and needed to get gear. MMO's aren't fair. And thats why you play them. to gear up and be better than those around you.

 

Where did all this sense of entitlement come into play?

 

Its ridiculous guys.

 

Everyone expects free handouts these days.

 

I remember camping one mob in EQ for hours waiting for it to spawn - for days in a row sometimes - only to lose the fight, have someone steal the kill, or have the mob not drop what you wanted. I remember getting utterly frustrated and often giving up because frankly it was not fun and not worth the effort for a stupid item.

 

I also remember people in Vanilla WoW farming and farming and turning in this and that non-stop to try to get one silly gear upgrade. I was perfectly happy with the dropped blues I was wearing and made due with what I had, because that grind wasn't fun either. I would go and do something else in the game that was fun.

 

The "sense of entitlement" comes from the fact that an MMO is a game and it's supposed to be fun. People feel entitled to an enjoyable experience and progression because that's what they're paying for. You don't pay to go to a movie and then expect to have to ride a stairmaster for two hours while you're watching it. Why do people think something that feels like work in a game is such a good or normal thing?

 

I've found that the people who knock on this "sense of entitlement" are typically people who - for some reason - feel like a game should be more like work. I wholeheartedly disagree. I was once the "hardcore" player who had plenty of time to sink into an MMO, so this is not coming from a purely casual perspective. Typically, players who are advocating a longer grind (which is almost always what they're advocating) are doing so because they have the time to put in and think they deserve to be given preferential treatment or better items because of it.

 

It doesn't matter how much time you put in though. Hardcore players and casual players make the game the same amount of money every month. Casual players - and when I say casual I mean people who have lives/jobs/significant others/kids, not just people new to MMO's who play 3 hours a week - deserve enjoyment and competetiveness as much as the next guy. There is no reason why putting in more time should automatically net you better items or higher power than those who put in less time. This isn't a job. It's a game. If you advocate this type of system you're essentially asking for a free advantage simply because you chose to or had the time to play the game more. Shouldn't your increased skill from all of that practice be an advantage? Is that not enough? Or is it that most of these players don't really have the extra skill that they think they should have, and so want to dominate more casual players via a grueling system of grinding that rewards only those who can and will spend countless hours repeating the same things?

 

The most logical system that would reward hardcore players without rewarding time spent (specifically in PvP) would be a system in which there are rankings based on who you beat, who you lost to, etc, and not at all related to how long you play. You should not be able to "grind" anything. It should fluctuate as you win or lose, and someone who sucks and plays 8 hours a day could have the same rank and access to the same things as someone who is skilled and plays 1 hour a day. How you balance these rewards is a completely separate issue and not really within the scope of my point, but it makes far more sense than rewarding time spent.

 

It can be done. Shadowbane was a great example. A lot of people disliked the game, but the PvP battles were awesome, and there was almost zero PvE aspect to the game. Basically you would just powerlevel a new character to a level where he was viable, you could buy good items from player-created vendors in player-created cities. No looting, no farming, no camping mobs or raiding dungeons. It was all about creating the skill builds, a few runes and items that were easy to get or buy, and coordination in PvP. I suppose not enough people enjoyed this to keep the game going, but it had other issues as well. I'm not suggesting another game completely free of PvE content, but it goes to show that if the PvP/End-game content is fun and not work, a grind is not needed, nor is it welcome.

Edited February 7, 2012 by vindianajones

[Sumire]

Ok, so maybe have the better gear as the "carrot" for winning/playing as normal, but reduce the gear advantage, enough for it not make that big a difference. Just always make sure the higher tier gear looks better, then people can just concentrate on complaining about class inbalances.

 

When some new gear comes out, make it so the lower tier is buyable for fresh 50s or people new to pvp. Maybe make it so no one is ever less than one tier from the top.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Sumire

[zejaie]

Remember the good old days of Vanilla Wow and EQ when you actually had to work for the gear you earned. And you were HAPPY to do so!

 

Remember farming countless hours of Alterac Valley turning in Wolf Pelts for reputation so you could, hopefully, a few weeks or a month or 2 down the road have a cool epic weapon!

LOBO!

 

And the gear meant something!

 

It wasn't something that people complained about and demanded.

 

Remember the good old days when you first reached max level in your class, you got roflstomped in PVP by players that rightfully outgeared you.

 

And you wouldnt complain once. It was understood. You were a newb and needed to get gear. MMO's aren't fair. And thats why you play them. to gear up and be better than those around you.

 

Where did all this sense of entitlement come into play?

 

Its ridiculous guys.

 

Everyone expects free handouts these days.

 

Heck, I played eq2 before the quick and easy path appeared. I remember having to run across continents to the boat in order to get around. I like having to work for what I get, it's more rewarding.

[Crunchyblack]

Cant stand this "instant gratification" crowd.. Had this guildy who was saying he was bored leveling so he was afk in warzones to progress...he was level 13...asked why he didnt do something else...said he just wanted to be 50....

 

These games are about progression...since they caterd to this crowd making the trip to endgame super fast and so easy someone with the iq of a houseplant can do it without gimping their character (remember when you decided where your stats went and lived with the consequences?)

 

Makes me think...why are you guys playing a mmoRPG if you hate the RPG part so much? Why are you here if you want super fair pvp based on skill....go play a FPS please and get out of my RPG. Hell funny thing is these people who want skill only based pvp in this thread are also making nerf sorc threads because their BH isnt facerolling them as easy as other classes ect. Or are themselves playing a class that takes little to no skills (almost all) to master.

 

I didnt play wow either, but this is the ramification for bringing in a few million people who never liked RPG's and got them hooked into these games...seeems all they want to is to take every aspect of RPG out and make this some kind of super smash brothers online.

 

Also for those who think you need to be a no lifer who plays 18 hrs a day to enjoy a longer game..perhaps we like out games to last losnger? I dont want to be at endgame ina month or two...i enjoy the trip. Even at 8 hours or 12 hours a week. My goal is entertainment not reaching endgame to prove something to myself.

 

I just think...so many people just dont understand and never will..

Edited February 7, 2012 by Crunchyblack

[bobaTBS]

ITT: someone trying to present gearfarming based pvp system as a good thing.

[DamienStark]

Remember the good old days of Vanilla Wow and EQ when you actually had to work for the gear you earned. And you were HAPPY to do so!

 

Remember farming countless hours of Alterac Valley turning in Wolf Pelts for reputation so you could, hopefully, a few weeks or a month or 2 down the road have a cool epic weapon!

LOBO!

 

And the gear meant something!

 

 

No, I don't remember those days. Didn't play those games. I'm playing this one instead.

 

I have a wife and a job and a family, pretty sure those "mean something". I don't play this video game to "mean something", I play it to have fun. For me, "grinding wolf pelts" does not equal fun.

 

I'm paying for this fun each month, and if it stops being fun, I'll probably stop paying. I'm not interested in paying a monthly fee AND grinding dull work for a month or two so I can "hopefully have a cool epic weapon".

 

If your opinion differs, that's fine, you're welcome to it. You're also welcome to post forum messages about how you're going to drop your sub because this silly entitlement game is only for casuals, and Bioware is free to evaluate whether they want to target their efforts at people like you, people like me, or somehow both (for example, they just made it easier to get Centurion gear, slower to get your first few Champion, I'm okay with that).

 

Only thing I'll add is that if you're really willing to do repetitive work for weeks and weeks in the hopes of something that "means something", I'd suggest you're better off applying that work ethic to actual work, or the gym. They'll pay you, instead of the other way around, and being in good shape impresses more people than a "cool epic weapon". Then, when you want a break from all that work, you'll find that there are lots of fun video games out there...

[Azuldun]

I don't pretend that I didn't play/enjoy it during vanilla, I sure as hell hated it when TBC came out and they dumbed everything down though.

 

Still if we want to go for REALLY difficult gearing, lets do it...AO style!

 

god ol' AO, I think about that game now and then. Overall I would say it's the best mmo I've played so far. I enjoyed the pvp in WAR better. until they removed the t4 strongholds (due to player loss?) and city siege was 24/7.

[Zarthorn]

god ol' AO, I think about that game now and then. Overall I would say it's the best mmo I've played so far. I enjoyed the pvp in WAR better. until they removed the t4 strongholds (due to player loss?) and city siege was 24/7.

 

It was more because of side imbalance meaning a server lets say destro heavy, would zerg the t4 strongholds and order might be able to muster up the numbers to defend two, but definatley lose one, then the zerg from the lost for would band together with one of the other fort zergs and force a flip by sheer numbers.

 

Shame on our server the destro kiddies could never advance the Altdorf siege, yet when we managed to storm there forts, we would always advance to the raid phase.

 

I'd love to see them do it right for a change, I'd love to see the DaoC frontiers brought into the modern era!

[Dreadspectre]

No one "worked" for their gear in the old games, it was just time invested(more time then now.)

 

The only way you could have people "work" and take "skill" is to attach ratings requirement to PvP gear.

 

They did that once in WoW and people had a ****-fit. Not necessarily because that many weren't good enough to get that high, but because their class was gimped or their comp wasn't good enough to make it.

 

Look at the past with rose colored glasses all you want, it wasn't that much better.

 

And for reference I have played:

 

UO, EQ, EQ2, EVE, WoW, WAR, DAoC, Planetside, Rift and maybe some others.

[OldManRelic]

Remember back in the good old days of PVP MUDs where you'd lose all of your gear?

 

However, as a consolation prize you'd also lose experience and "valor"

 

PVP with zero consequence is like playing poker for points. It's a totally different game.

 

Bring hardcore pvp servers to carebear games and make the "pros" cry.

 

Thanks

 

Except, they won't cry. They'll stop playing, then unsub. This is a business, not a playground for people who loved the early days of UO - you know, with mechanics that drove half of the initial playerbase off within a few months. Sure, they recovered, but that has more to do with the fact there was such a huge, untapped market to draw from.

 

These days? People know what an MMO is and how it works, in general terms. If they aren't getting what they want out of it, they don't pay.

 

I really do miss the days of MUDs/MUSHes/MOOs/etc. There were so many games out there that ONE of them suited your playstyle. Those days are gone. Now we're forced to play watered down games for the masses.

 

Ya know? I think I might resub to DAOC, on that note. Who needs eye candy?

Edited February 7, 2012 by OldManRelic

[Stigas]

Remember in AC where gear meant very little.

 

When a skilled player could take on multiple, better geared, and high level players and win.

 

Remember when PVP didn't consist of endless CC spam, and when you actually had control of your character the majority of the time? (best way to remove player skill from PVP - remove the players ability to do anything).

 

And when PVP wasn't in some never ending shoebox sized minigame grind, but in the MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER world. Back when guild politics meant something. When guilds would fight over for control of towns and leveling spots. Back when PVP had meaning. When your actions had consequences.

 

Back when the skill ceiling was high, when you could dodge projectiles, spells, etc... none of this autohoming crap we have today.

 

You know, does anyone remember back in the days when PVP was actually good?

 

You mean back when MMO's were good?

 

Yeah, those were also the times I didn't have to work at 7am. People didn't have kids to take care of at night.

 

Skill comes with time. Sure, there's people who are just naturally better at video games than others, but if you think all the "good" pvpers now are naturally skilled, you're crazy. These are just people with more time. They spend hundreds of hours on the same character, queuing for Warzone after Warzone with their pocket heals and 2 Tanks.

 

The days you're talking about are also the days before anyone ever fathomed having 12,000,000 paying MONTHLY FEES to access the game. That's a BIG number to business folk.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, people seem to think that there are no more games like that. There are PLENTY of indie games that are made to challenge instead of reward. There just aren't millions of people to interact with, and there's no fancy forum to go cry on when you aren't happy with it.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Stigas

[WaywardOne]

<< CC nightmare isn't as bad as people make it out to be. In fact it's not much worse than WoW's is. >>

 

? Almost every class in this game gets ranged and/or aoe spammable snares, pushbacks and stuns. Most get multiple.

 

My guardian can: Choke 1x min (less rt w/spec), AoE snare for 9 secs, Push with a knockdown/damage 1x min (less with spsc), AoE limited stun 1x/min, short-range snare with a dot (4 secs). Leap causes a 1-2 second snare.

 

In Wow, my warrior can: stun/knockdown 1x/min, aoe fear 1x/2 min (max 5 targets), snare for 8 secs (blockable and I think they made this non-spammable but forget the specifics). For the sake of completeness, he can also charge/intercept (intercept stuns for 1 sec) and he can disarm.

 

There are some specs in either class that allow for more/different CC but, basically, the guardian has far more cc tools in any given 10 min window and he isn't even close to one of the heavy CC classes of this game. My guardian compares well with a frost mage (which is probably the heaviest cc class in that game).

 

The thing about Wow is that much of the CC has a counter: fears are breakable by my warrior, paladins have snare immunities that they can cast on others, saps don't work on targets that are fighting. And the trinkets are on shorter RTs. Add in that most classes in that game do not have much CC at all and the diminishing returns actually works (compared to resolve which is a joke to most of us).

 

SWTOR has taken CC to a brand new level; it may well be the king of CC games. That is not a venerable distinction for me.