Are Sith really evil?

[Marak]

You guys aren't understanding why he became a Jedi. You assume he up and decided it wasn't cool being Sith anymore.

 

No.

 

He was very loyal to the Empire.

 

It was a dishonor for him to have lost and he says something to the effect of "I was always taught that the greatest path to power is through the dark side" and is then convinced to try a new way. You later bump into him on Corelia and he gives you a kind of "So yeah this Jedi thing hasn't been easy. I'm a work in progress"

 

 

If your premise is "You CANNOT EVER BE a GOOD SITH" What was Praven for his entire life up until now?

 

He was a good Sith.. loyal to the empire. Exactly what us light sided Sith are now.

[Isilme_Turuphant]

Dude in the Sith Temple has abandoned the dark side, and that's also why destroying the holocron is a dark sided and act and also why he's considered a raving lunatic by other Sith.

 

Actually, I think Kel'eth Ur is an example of an interesting phenomenon, that seems to be universal.

 

It is impossible to maintain a large population of Force users, and not have someone switch sides.

 

Even in the absence of Sith or Sith teachings, Jedi have been known to fall to the Dark Side all on their own. Though they may not be formally Sith, they will tend to shift to a Sith viewpoint and manner of behavior, switching to drawing upon their emotions as they immerse themselves in the Dark Side in a cycle of corruption.

 

But Kel'eth Ur indicates it can work both ways. In a population of Sith, who had all but forgotten the Jedi, who were all ruthlessly indoctrinated in the Sith Code... one slipped to the Light, and developed a philosophy that was very close to that of the Jedi.

 

This may, in fact, be one of the purposes of the Rule of Two. With many Sith, all competing and fighting for limited power, some might be tempted to explore other avenues of power, some advantage over others whom rage and mercilessness comes more easily, and slip to the Light. But with only two Sith, it would never happen. If the Apprentice slipped, the Master would quickly eliminate them and take on a new apprentice. If the Master slipped, in the weakness of transition, their Apprentice would slaughter them, and take the role of Master. The dynamic would keep the Sith pure.

[BigBashkar]

Praven shows constant regret for his actions and clearly struggles obeying the Sith Code. He doesn't like ordering people to be tortured, and shows impressive restraint. There's a constant vibe of regret and doubt in him. He was taught that the Dark Side was stronger. Key word is taught - he is learning to not believe that, and the merciful ways of the Jedi are proving that to him.

 

If you're saying all light sided, good, honorable Sith would struggle with the code and doubt it at times, and would - with some convincing - be changed to Jedi, then I agree with you. They would definitely give up the Sith ways and abandon them, wanting to be a Jedi because they agree more with the Jedi code.

 

Do Sith exist like that? Sure, Praven is one of them absolutely. But you can also turn him away from the dark side that he is using, turn him away from the Empire and importantly turn him away from the Sith code.

[Marak]

Praven shows constant regret for his actions and clearly struggles obeying the Sith Code. He doesn't like ordering people to be tortured, and shows impressive restraint. There's a constant vibe of regret and doubt in him. He was taught that the Dark Side was stronger. Key word is taught - he is learning to not believe that, and the merciful ways of the Jedi are proving that to him.

 

If you're saying all light sided, good, honorable Sith would struggle with the code and doubt it at times, and would - with some convincing - be changed to Jedi, then I agree with you. They would definitely give up the Sith ways and abandon them, wanting to be a Jedi because they agree more with the Jedi code.

 

Do Sith exist like that? Sure, Praven is one of them absolutely. But you can also turn him away from the dark side that he is using, turn him away from the Empire and importantly turn him away from the Sith code.

 

And I rest my case.

 

Dark side users are not inherently corrupted and evil to their core. Some have a hard time with it. That is us who are currently light sided force lightning using Sith.

 

My work here is done.

[JediOwner]

He was a good Sith.. loyal to the empire. Exactly what us light sided Sith are now.

 

That's an interesting concept for light-sided Sith that I hadn't considered. Forgive my naïveté, but if I understand you correctly what you're saying is that "light Sith" are not traitors attempting to support the Republic, but rather loyal Sith who want to see the Empire succeed against the Republic. Perhaps they feel the current leadership has betrayed the Empire and become corrupt.

 

There's definitely a strong hint of this in the Sith Warrior storyline, particularly in the casting of Darth Baras against the Emperor. And really, in the end, you don't know who the corrupt people were, and who the loyal ones were. (chuckle)

Edited February 7, 2012 by JediOwner

[TrollBerzerker]

Welcome.

 

TrollBerzerker, I'm not bringing the real world into it, I'm just attempting analogies based on familiar examples -- you're absolutely right that it's not the real world. I'd be grateful for a full read of my last post. I'm not attacking you like some folks around here. On the contrary, I think it's a fascinating discussion.

 

You're right, I apologize. I read it the whole way through this time, but my point still stands.

 

At its core, Star Wars is a story of good versus evil. In order to have a story like that, the definition of good and evil has to be clear. From the very first screen of A New Hope, these concepts are given to us, and they paint a blissfully simple outlook on the galaxy with heroes and villains.

 

We can step back and look at all the Stormtroopers dying and joke about how that is an evil in and of itself, but the movies obviously never intended for us to think of the Stormtroopers in that way. They wear helmets and armor that completely cover up their humanity so that we only think of them as faceless drones and servants of the evil Empire, so that we don't feel bad for them and we continue to root for the heroes.

 

And thus it comes back to the sith. With such a clear picture of good and evil given to us, the sith are very obviously meant to be evil, and their whole order is based around philosphies of evil.

 

And I rest my case.

 

Dark side users are not inherently corrupted and evil to their core. Some have a hard time with it. That is us who are currently light sided force lightning using Sith.

 

My work here is done.

 

You're still not understanding that your character is an exception to the rule. Sith and their beliefs are evil. If you're a 'good' sith, you inherently disagree with their beliefs.

Edited February 7, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[BigBashkar]

And I rest my case.

 

Dark side users are not inherently corrupted and evil to their core. Some have a hard time with it. That is us who are currently light sided force lightning using Sith.

 

My work here is done.

 

It's good that you agree with me. Light Side Sith would struggle with the Sith code, have a hard time with it, and ultimately end up Jedi because they aren't at heart true Sith. They're just like I said before - they're just like someone calling themselves a motorcyclist but never owned a motorcycle.

 

Sith, only in name, not in practice. Not really Sith.

Edited February 7, 2012 by BigBashkar

[Marak]

You're right, I apologize. I read it the whole way through this time, but my point still stands.

 

At its core, Star Wars is a story of good versus evil. In order to have a story like that, the definition of good and evil has to be clear. From the very first screen of A New Hope, these concepts are given to us, and they paint a blissfully simple outlook on the galaxy with heroes and villains.

 

We can step back and look at all the Stormtroopers dying and joke about how that is an evil in and of itself, but the movies obviously never intended for us to think of the Stormtroopers in that way. They wear helmets and armor that completely cover up their humanity so that we only think of them as faceless drones and servants of the evil Empire, so that we don't feel bad for them and we continue to root for the heroes.

 

And thus it comes back to the sith. With such a clear picture of good and evil given to us, the sith are very obviously meant to be evil, and their whole order is based around philosphies of evil.

 

 

 

You're still not understanding that your character is an exception to the rule. Sith and their beliefs are evil. If you're a 'good' sith, you inherently disagree with their beliefs.

 

"Are all Sith evil?"

 

Answer: No.

 

That's all this thread was about. The finer intricacies are irrelevant and personal opinion. As per the lore of this game it is absolutely possible for there to be "good" Sith. They might not fit into how you perceive Sith philosophies on the whole, but they do exist and your notion that the dark side of the force corrupts absolutely has been proven wrong.

 

If you want to cling to the "anomaly" excuse, fine. Light sided Sith are still part of the story.

 

/End.

 

Now I'm going to level before I waste the entire evening. Good debate, gents!

[BigBashkar]

"Are all Sith evil?"

 

Answer: No.

 

That's all this thread was about. The finer intricacies are irrelevant and personal opinion. As per the lore of this game it is absolutely possible for there to be "good" Sith. They might not fit into how you perceive Sith philosophies on the whole, but they do exist and your notion that the dark side of the force corrupts absolutely has been proven wrong.

 

If you want to cling to the "anomaly" excuse, fine. Light sided Sith are still part of the story.

 

/End.

 

Now I'm going to level before I waste the entire evening. Good debate, gents!

 

I don't think I've ever seen someone accept that their opinion was changed this gracefully, before. The internet is usually full of trolling, but it's good to see you changed your opinion and agree with the rest of us.

 

Sith who are good end up Jedi, and aren't really Sith. This is something we agree on now - not all Sith are evil, because some of them disagree with the Sith Code and are really light sided individuals. They dislike evil actions, and will likely leave the Sith in due time because they were never really Sith to begin with.

 

The Dark Side doesn't corrupt absolutely - we already know this from Return of the Jedi, which was released decades ago. You can be redeemed from the dark side, abandon the Sith, and become light sided again - like Darth Vader did.

Edited February 7, 2012 by BigBashkar

[TrollBerzerker]

"Are all Sith evil?"

 

Answer: No.

 

That's all this thread was about.

 

Oh really? The thread title I see is asking "Are Sith really evil?"

 

Yes, yes they are. If you're a good sith, you're conflicting with their evil path and ultimately you will be corrupted and fall in line, or you will rebel and leave them. Any 'good' sith only remain so because they either don't know of another path, or have no choice. Or they haven't yet realized their order is evil.

 

So yes, the sith are evil. Just like, for example, the drow are evil, even if Drizzt and a few other examples of them are not. Except this is even harsher, because the sith (with the exception of the purebloods) are not a race, but a cult centered around a set of philosophies. If you don't agree with those philosophies, you cannot consider yourself a true member of that cult.

Edited February 7, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[Marak]

I don't think I've ever seen someone accept that their opinion was changed this gracefully, before. The internet is usually full of trolling, but it's good to see you changed your opinion and agree with the rest of us.

 

Sith who are good end up Jedi, and aren't really Sith. This is something we agree on now - not all Sith are evil, because some of them disagree with the Sith Code and are really light sided individuals. They dislike evil actions, and will likely leave the Sith in due time.

 

The Dark Side doesn't corrupt absolutely - we already know this from Return of the Jedi, which was released decades ago. You can be redeemed from the dark side, abandon the Sith, and become light sided again - like Darth Vader did.

 

No.

 

Praven became a Jedi because he lost to one and had to be convinced in his bruised ego state and then still struggled with it.

 

Praven loved being a Sith. He just didn't like losing and wondered how he was beaten. That was all.

 

If at some point down the line Bioware wants to implement a betrayal system like EQ2 had where I too can be beaten by a Jedi and betray.. fine. Until then.. I'm Praven 2.0. I'm the Sith with the honor code and I am not evil.

[BigBashkar]

No.

 

Praven became a Jedi because he lost to one and had to be convinced in his bruised ego state and then still struggled with it.

 

Praven loved being a Sith. He just didn't like losing and wondered how he was beaten. That was all.

 

If at some point down the line Bioware wants to implement a betrayal system like EQ2 had where I too can be beaten by a Jedi and betray.. fine. Until then.. I'm Praven 2.0. I'm the Sith with the honor code and I am not evil.

 

Yes, you're exactly like Praven. I agree. You're a Sith who is at his core good and honorable, who struggles constantly with the Sith code, is beginning to doubt the Sith beliefs, really dislikes being a Sith and is actually weaker when he is a Sith - finding the Light Side a better path, and a stronger path, because he's a good person and was never really a Sith to begin with.

 

Praven openly admits he wishes he disobeyed some orders during the class mission, because he doesn't agree with them and finds them cruel. He's constantly contradicting them.

 

The moment he found a way to leave the Sith, he took it. That's all Good Sith would do - leave once they realized another path.

[JediOwner]

You're right, I apologize. I read it the whole way through this time, but my point still stands.

 

Thanks for hearing me out. It really is a great thread, man. You've cut right to the heart of an important part of why the Sith story is so incendiary.

 

 

At its core, Star Wars is a story of good versus evil.

 

Absolutely.

 

 

In order to have a story like that, the definition of good and evil has to be clear. From the very first screen of A New Hope, these concepts are given to us, and they paint a blissfully simple outlook on the galaxy with heroes and villains.

 

True.

 

 

And thus it comes back to the sith. With such a clear picture of good and evil given to us, the sith are very obviously meant to be evil, and their whole order is based around philosphies of evil.

 

Sure, they clearly are. What's really driving the opposition here is a desire to avoid distasteful analogies that aren't appropriate and dismiss the Sith as, say, cartoon-comical, or otherwise incorrectly motivated.

 

There's a whole thread not far from this one in which a guy is holding court about how the Sith story is inappropriate for modern society. The author claims that the inclusion of ****, murder, and so forth, are insulting and should not have been used in a modern title, and that their use reduces the artistic merit of the game.

 

So he's claiming that the story is politically incorrect. You're claiming that the story is wrong (not correctly matched to existing content). Different arguments, but in both cases I just can't help but think that BioWare should pat itself on the back, if for no other reason than the fact it has generated this much emotion, thought and debate.

[Marak]

Yes, you're exactly like Praven. I agree. You're a Sith who is at his core good and honorable, who struggles constantly with the Sith code, is beginning to doubt the Sith beliefs, really dislikes being a Sith and is actually weaker when he is a Sith - finding the Light Side a better path, and a stronger path, because he's a good person and was never really a Sith to begin with.

 

Praven openly admits he wishes he disobeyed some orders during the class mission, because he doesn't agree with them and finds them cruel. He's constantly contradicting them.

 

The moment he found a way to leave the Sith, he took it. That's all Good Sith would do - leave once they realized another path.

 

Ok let's further this point....

 

During the Inq/Ashara love interest storyline she questions why you don't act like the other sith. My response-- Something to the effect of.. to change what you disagree with you must change it from within. Yes this goes back to your "BUT YOUR PC ISN'T CANON!!!ONEONE!" argument, but it works when used in conjunction with Praven.

 

There are Sith that believe in being dark force wielding pro-Empire Sith that don't believe in the wanton cruelty and "evilness". It's all there in the stories.

 

You guys just don't want it to be. It's not Saturday morning villain cartoon black and white. There is depth to this faction. I've already conceded that MOST of the Sith are evil. But not inherently so. Praven and my own storyline, canon or not, prove that LucasArts wants there to be a Good Sith option. And to a lesser extent Scourge goes to this. Yes he's manipulative, but that does not make him evil. He believes the Empire is crazy and that evil will be the end of us all.

 

Are we good sith a small percentage? Yes. But it goes to point that Sith aren't intrinsically evil. The teachings just promote greed and most people can't handle it.

[TrollBerzerker]

You guys just don't want it to be. It's not Saturday morning villain cartoon black and white. There is depth to this faction.

 

You're putting words in our mouth now. We never said it was Saturday morning cartoon villain level of evil. That is played to a comical level. In fact, those evil characters are often easier to empathize with than the heroes because of how over the top and colorful they are. They revel in being evil, directly referring to themselves as evil.

 

Star Wars still has a black and white definition of good and evil, but it goes more in-depth with the concept, and explores the in-between areas. A character can start their journey into understanding themselves and the Force from the perspective of a sith, but if they are good-hearted, they will eventually leave. The sith cult is inherently evil, and they are not. It's possible they were never truly sith to begin with, but only followed their path because they didn't know of any other.

 

At the end of the day, the Sith are evil. That is the question of this thread. You cannot follow the Sith path and still be good, it's just not a possibility. Eventually you will be corrupted, or you will leave, or you will work to change them from within. No matter which of those is the case, you are not an example of the Sith as they are intended.

[BigBashkar]

Ok let's further this point....

 

During the Inq/Ashara love interest storyline she questions why you don't act like the other sith. My response-- Something to the effect of.. to change what you disagree with you must change it from within. Yes this goes back to your "BUT YOUR PC ISN'T CANON!!!ONEONE!" argument, but it works when used in conjunction with Praven.

 

There are Sith that believe in being dark force wielding pro-Empire Sith that don't believe in the wanton cruelty and "evilness". It's all there in the stories.

 

You guys just don't want it to be. It's not Saturday morning villain cartoon black and white. There is depth to this faction. I've already conceded that MOST of the Sith are evil. But not inherently so. Praven and my own storyline, canon or not, prove that LucasArts wants there to be a Good Sith option. And to a lesser extent Scourge goes to this. Yes he's manipulative, but that does not make him evil. He believes the Empire is crazy and that evil will be the end of us all.

 

Are we good sith a small percentage? Yes. But it goes to point that Sith aren't intrinsically evil. The teachings just promote greed and most people can't handle it.

 

Your character's statement only furthers this point. He wants to change the Sith Code.. which means he doesn't agree with it, and doesn't "fit" that definition of Sith. There are many shades of evil, and not all of them are psychopaths. Many Sith believe in hardcore loyalty and order and seek to do whatever they can to further that - many other Sith are wanton murderers.

 

Look at Palpatine compared to this current Sith Emperor. Completely different viewpoints and ways of doing things, but both very evil, both very Sith.

 

The question in the topic title is "Are Sith really evil?" The answer to that is yes.

 

Are all Sith evil - as in, true Sith who believe in the code? Yes. At their heart, a Sith who fully believes the code is going to be evil. Your character does not believe in the code, and instead wants to change it. You acknowledge this yourself. Wanting to change what a Sith is, and redefine it, means that you don't fit the current definition, which means you aren't really a Sith - you're someone fighting from within to change what a Sith is totally.

 

Lord Praven disagrees with the code and leaves because of it. Lord Scourge just thinks the current Emperor is a lunatic and that they Empire needs to become more orderly and not insane. That isn't good or evil, that's just his goal, but he definitely is a Sith who is evil.

 

You're basically a Light Sider who is currently hiding amongst the Sith ranks, with the end goal of wanting to change the Sith from within - to turn them to the Light Side. This very obviously doesn't make you a Sith - all other real Sith would consider you an imposter.

 

You cannot be a "true Sith" and be Light Sided/Good/Honorable at the same time.

[Esauru]

In specific, I believe Vaapad was only considered a particularly vicious form of fighting focused on lethal attacks. It could be performed without falling to the dark side, but only a dark side user could unlock its full potential.

 

Vaapad is a variant of what we have ingame now known as Juyo. Windu himself created

Vaapad out of Juyo and here is a small summary of it from the wikia.

 

Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[9] The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat.

 

As stated it clearly goes against the Jedi Code. However it is canon back to our era and up til the new republic that even Jedi use it despite how it is still "Frowned" upon by the Council and most Jedi.

 

I personally would not want to comment whether or not Sith or Jedi are truely good or

evil ectera. By right, by Lucas, Jedi are good, Sith are evil, that is what I know.

 

As for using the dark side and maintaining good, The dark side corrupts the mind and body, as you all know of the force corruption, inherently it is a powerful negative force.

So no, I do not think it is possible to use the dark force and maintain a good person if

one keeps using it without extreme discipline.

 

If you look up Vaapad or Mace Windu, it explains why he is allowed to use the form and

who he has chosen to teach it to and why. Then again, what is canon or not gets really weird anyway.

 

Force Unleashed is considered Canon if I'm not wrong.. So yeah... >.>

To me pulling down an entire Star Destroyer being Canon is more ******** then

most of EU. Really arguing on whether canon or not is really dancing in many shades

of grey. Revan is Canon and he jumps from light to dark to light to dark like he is playing

frogger.

[Breckin_Fett]

According to GL, the Force is "in balance" when there is no dark side. ie: What the Jedi strive for.

The Dark Side is like a cancer of the force that eats away at your morals and causes you to fall further and further into depravity the more you tap into it's power.

(Yes it's stupid, yes it would be a much more interesting story if balance actually meant balance, but it's George Lucas, so... what'd you expect?)

 

That being said, yes, the Sith are evil, but it has nothing to do with their philosophy or code. It has everything to do with their reliance on the Dark side of the Force. If the Dark side didn't corrupt you inside and out, then the Sith wouldn't be evil, they'd just be different than the Jedi.

 

Now, THAT being said, the Jedi are in no way good. The Jedi are the Star Wars version of organized religion. They do good things in order for people to like them in order to manipulate and get things they want. They strive for peace, but not true peace. Instead they want a Jedi-controlled galaxy. However, they're not evil. Self-absorbed neutrality would be a better fit for "Jedi."

 

To use ye olde D&D alignment system:

Sith = Lawful Evil

Empire = Lawful Neutral

 

Jedi = Lawful Neutral

Republic = Chaotic/Neutral Good

[Ziggoratt]

Wow.. I honestly never thought that my question would mount this much debate. 0_0

 

Well, I feel honored that you all have participated this far, and encourage you to keep it up. This has given me a lot to think about in terms of Star Wars Philosophy ^^'

 

Now, here's a point that I've been seeing get batted back and forth. There seems to be a lot of debate on whether or not the Dark Side of the Force is inherently evil. Personally, I don't believe it is, and I offer Praven as proof. It's been widely accepted that he was a good, moral, and honorable person... And he used the Dark Side of the Force. So doesn't this disprove the Dark Side = Evil point?

 

A lot of arguments seem to keep going back to the original trilogy, so I'll address that now. Yes, it's true, the Original Trilogy did portray this issue as black and white. In the OT, Sith were unquestionably evil, and the Dark Side was the source of all evil... But that's because back then, the Star Wars universe could afford to be close-minded. George Lucas never dreamed that his movie idea, grand as it was, would span into THIS. Therefor, he left it simple. But as things expanded, and philosophy found its way into the equation, that traditional black and white issue has blurred into gray. It's had to, in order to keep its audience.

 

The Dark Side has become more than Lucas originally designed it as. He needed an antagonistic force behind Sideous, so he invented the Dark Side. As the SW universe expanded, so, too, did everything else. Black-and-white views are no longer the only valid ones, as there are now shades of gray.

[BigBashkar]

Luke taps into his hate and anger and uses the dark side a number of things, because it's tempting and destructive.

 

Darth Vader has doubt and good in him throught RotJ, and is eventually turned back to the light side because of it.

 

The Dark Side is definitely an evil, corrupting force. Good people can fall to it - many Jedi do, and are just good people trying to do the right thing.

 

These same good people can be tugged back from the dark side. Praven used the dark side, but was really a good person on the inside who felt unease at the Sith Code and struggled with it.

 

Ultimately, he abandons the dark side because of it.

 

I'm sure Praven was using the Dark Side since it's so tempting.. but his strong honor and morals held him back from succumbing to it, and eventually, it did more than hold it back - it overcame it.

[Syrocc]

Sith Empire = Totalitarian regime = Fascism/Nazism = evil.

 

As easy as that!

[Ziggoratt]

... Hold up, I just thought of something that may or may not change my entire viewpoint on this issue.

 

Are there Light-Sided Force Wielding organizations ASIDE from the Jedi?

[BigBashkar]

The Baran Do sages, which is a Kel Dor tradition are light sided.

 

The Jedi have absorbed many of these traditions, when they first meet since Jedi knowledge goes vast and deep into the Light Side.

[Breckin_Fett]

The Dark Side is evil. There is no question about that unless you completely disregard what George Lucas has created.

 

Now, by taping into the Dark Side, that doesn't make you automatically fall completely into it.

It's described like a cancer for a reason. The more you use it, the harder it is to resist it's pull.

You can give yourself fully over to it (Anakin in the prequil) or you can use it sparingly and try to resist it as best you can (Luke in various points of his life).

 

 

Those of us who enjoy interesting stories want Star Wars to have shades of grey. But according to George Lucas's canon story, it really is as black and white as it seems.

[Ziggoratt]

Are there any LS-organizations that embrace emotion, love, and humanity in it of itself?