Are Sith really evil?

[BigBashkar]

I simply disagree. The fact that the Revanites even exist in this game show exactly where LucasArts is headed with this. None of this was accidental or a byproduct of gameplay.

 

Revanites don't contradict anything and their storyline presence will be incorporated into the canon. Revanites are already in the canon as a dark-sided cult that follows Revan's teachings, so it's hardly anything big. The game paints the fact they're dark sided very clearly - they aren't hybrid grey Jedis or anything - so they fit in rather normally.

[Marak]

More likely they'll leave the events of the eight different TOR class stories ambiguous. No matter how you play your character, certain events will always happen the same way, and those are the ones that count.

 

In your mind, your inquisitor was a merciful light-sided character throughout those events. In your mind, those events are canon. Just like everyone else who played the inquisitor storyline. But in this case, you have to accept that your inquisitor is an anomaly. What she or he is doing should not be possible, and s/he is a very exceptional individual for being able to tap so deeply into the dark side and remain pure.

 

That doesn't mean it's going to happen ever again, anywhere. It also doesn't make the rest of the sith nor the dark side of the force good.

 

No that's not what I'm saying at all. My character is not canon. The fact that there is roughly 2 million people, and somewhere around 1.25-1.5 million of them are force users in the Old Republic timeline. That is the premise of this game. We are a part of the timeline.

 

A percentage of that are characters like mine. There will be a small paragraph somewhere down the line stating something to the effect of "During the era of the Old Republic there existed a subfaction of Sith who did not believe in the wanton destruction and they applied a different spin on the Sith teachings. They were the Revanites"

 

 

You see this all over Dromund Kaas. I'm not sure if the Warrior sees it, but one quest deals exactly with this in the Sith Temple. There is an ancient Sith datacron espousing the merits of the light side and you give it to some Sith Lord that is all like "uh.. I'll take that. Tell no one".

 

 

 

It will be part of the canon. It already is.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Marak

[TrollBerzerker]

A percentage of that are characters like mine. There will be a small paragraph somewhere down the line stating something to the effect of "During the era of the Old Republic there existed a subfaction of Sith who did not believe in the wanton destruction and they applied a different spin on the Sith teachings. They were the Revanites"

 

 

You see this all over Dromund Kaas. I'm not sure if the Warrior sees it, but one quest deals exactly with this in the Sith Temple. There is an ancient Sith datacron espousing the merits of the light side and you give it to some Sith Lord that is all like "uh.. I'll take that. Tell no one".

 

 

 

It will be part of the canon. It already is.

 

You're falling into the same trap as Bioware in thinking that the only way to be evil is to cause wanton destruction. The revanites weren't destructive, but they were still evil.

 

And yes, I know about the quest you're mentioning, everyone gets it. The reason that guy hides it is because he's preaching the virtues of the light side of the force, not the dark side. He's saying the dark side is ultimately weak. The sith put all of their faith in the dark side, and his beliefs directly conflict with the Sith code in many places.

[BigBashkar]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. My character is not canon. The fact that there is roughly 2 million people, and somewhere around 1.25-1.5 million of them are force users in the Old Republic timeline. That is the premise of this game. We are a part of the timeline.

 

A percentage of that are characters like mine. There will be a small paragraph somewhere down the line stating something to the effect of "During the era of the Old Republic there existed a subfaction of Sith who did not believe in the wanton destruction and they applied a different spin on the Sith teachings. They were the Revanites"

 

 

You see this all over Dromund Kaas. I'm not sure if the Warrior sees it, but one quest deals exactly with this in the Sith Temple. There is an ancient Sith datacron espousing the merits of the light side and you give it to some Sith Lord that is all like "uh.. I'll take that. Tell no one".

 

 

It will be part of the canon. It already is.

 

They will likely consider each class one individual in terms of canon - the Star Wars lore will refer to a single Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Jedi Knight, Imperial Agent, etc. - however this is pointless to argue because we aren't sure which way they are going with it exactly.

 

The Revanites are dark siders who have incorporated concepts of the Jedi code into their practice. They are on the dark side, but they contradict the Sith code and use different techniques. They don't seek to pointlessly kill and crush, for example. It's basically a group of Sith saying, "Well, Revan had some good ideas and he was a fallen Jedi who used Jedi ideas.. and it made him pretty strong, so let's use that."

 

That's true, in the fact that a Revanite wouldn't have to believe in wanton destruction. He exercises willpower to make more rational decisions. This is a hard thing to do - even Revan struggled with it - but generally it's just a more rational, controlled user of the Dark Side. It doesn't mean they aren't brutal and don't use pretty dark techniques when necessary.

 

Revanites aren't "light side Sith," though. They might masquerade as Sith, and truly be Revanites, but they definitely use the dark side.

[Marak]

There's pound after pound of hints of this in game.

 

Sith who are not dark side. Yet somehow we're still anomalies.

 

 

It's blatantly obvious where LucasArts stands on this. They are straight up telling you.. there are Sith that are not evil, yet are still Sith.

 

You can argue your vague assumption, but it's not that vague in game.

[DuronXM]

I used to be neutral, but then I took an alignment change to the character pane. *Troll face*

[TrollBerzerker]

There's pound after pound of hints of this in game.

 

Sith who are not dark side. Yet somehow we're still anomalies.

 

 

It's blatantly obvious where LucasArts stands on this. They are straight up telling you.. there are Sith that are not evil, yet are still Sith.

 

You can argue your vague assumption, but it's not that vague in game.

 

I already debated one of your points. And yes, your Light-Sided sith who uses force lightning with 0 Dark Side corruption is definitely an anomaly.

[Marak]

I used to be neutral, but then I took an alignment change to the character pane. *Troll face*

 

*NotBadObama*

[BigBashkar]

There's pound after pound of hints of this in game.

 

Sith who are not dark side. Yet somehow we're still anomalies.

 

It's blatantly obvious where LucasArts stands on this. They are straight up telling you.. there are Sith that are not evil, yet are still Sith.

 

You can argue your vague assumption, but it's not that vague in game.

 

Sith who aren't on the Dark Side are either:

 

A. Contradicting the Sith Code actively and yet are still calling themselves Sith. They would either ultimately realize they aren't Sith, or would eventually fall in-line. The entire Sith code, the Sith practices, everything is heavy on using the dark side. This would be a strange anomaly and you would either leave the Sith order or be killed. A "light sided Sith" is just like I said before.. it's like calling yourself a motorcyclist but you never drive a motorcycle.

 

B. Are in fact on the Dark Side, but are not clinging to the Sith code and expand beyond it, incorporation other ideas and teachings. There is a real reason why Revanites are hunted down and killed by the Sith - they are violating the Sith teachings and are a direct threat to the Sith Emperor.

 

Pointing to Revanites as light sided Sith makes no sense because Revanites themselves aren't Sith and they are also on the dark side.

[Marak]

Sith who aren't on the Dark Side are either:

 

A. Contradicting the Sith Code actively and yet are still calling themselves Sith. They would either ultimately realize they aren't Sith, or would eventually fall in-line. The entire Sith code, the Sith practices, everything is heavy on using the dark side. This would be a strange anomaly and you would either leave the Sith order or be killed. A "light sided Sith" is just like I said before.. it's like calling yourself a motorcyclist but you never drive a motorcycle.

 

B. Are in fact on the Dark Side, but are not clinging to the Sith code and expand beyond it, incorporation other ideas and teachings. There is a real reason why Revanites are hunted down and killed by the Sith - they are violating the Sith teachings and are a direct threat to the Sith Emperor.

 

Pointing to Revanites as light sided Sith makes no sense because Revanites themselves aren't Sith and they are also on the dark side.

 

Again point out where in the Sith Code they are contradicting. I'll wait.

[Ziggoratt]

If I may, there's an issue that I didn't quite get..

 

How are the Revanites "Evil?"

[BigBashkar]

Again point out where in the Sith Code they are contradicting. I'll wait.

 

Hmm, I dunno. Let me - oh wait, not using the Dark Side, which is the core of nearly every Sith practice, teaching, technique, philosophy ever.

[Marak]

Hmm, I dunno. Let me - oh wait, not using the Dark Side, which is the core of nearly every Sith practice, teaching, technique, philosophy ever.

 

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

 

This is the Sith Code.

 

 

Please point out anywhere in there the words "Dark" or "Side"

[Spartanik]

The sith are evil basicaly because they feed on the weak to became strong, and they need to become strong, because they fear, and they need to fear because its their passions that drive them trough the force.

You can say its more like folowers of darwinisn to the extreme.

 

The jedi arent evil. you know how i know this? because contrary of manny people belive at first glance the jedi dont set emotions apart. I think manny people here made the mistake to take the code to literaly, and dint grasp is meaning.

possibly the best version of the code is this one

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

Wich was the original code before the new jedi order, and it makes alot more sense. They arent denying emotions, they are putting reason above them. Meaning you can have emotions and passions and all that, how cant you have it? its impossible to not have it, the mantras are there to guide the jedi, to not be overcome by fear, and let their passions rule them. Love its not the same thing as passion. passion isnt a good thing first of all, you guys are mistaken passion with love, wich are 2 diferent things.

One thing the explains this very well. Its when mara jade died (lukes wife). His first impulses was to kill the murderers because he could do so very easly. But instead he thought that would go against everything she and him stand for, and decide to investigate who the murders were, and why they did it.

The ancient sith lord that you meet in dromund kass in the dark temple in a holographic image, explains this pretty well. The sith are comsumed by fear even fear of everything so they need to be imortal, they need to be stronger no matter what. That path will eventualy feed and opress others despite their motivations, and that is why its evil, there is no way arround that. and that is you always have a opressive society in wich the stronger feed on the weak in any sith empire, being in korriban , or onderon etc.

Also on the sith code when they say peace is lie, they arent talking about war and peace, they are talking about emotions, since the sith use the dark side of the force , and the dark side is easier to reach when you are fueled by raw emotions like anger, rage, hatred, fear, aggression, and passion. But fear is the chief of all those, with out it you will not have the others. when you are at peace of mind the dark side is much more harder to reach, yet manny jedi did use some dark side powers, let then fuel on their emotions, but staying in control, because they do not fear thos emotions, they control them mace windu one of them, luke and others too.

And is important to remember what the dark side is and what do to its users.

The dark side was seen as having been used for selfish purposes, although many darksiders who were accused of such selfishness claimed that their dark side was simply a means to achieve an end....The dark side was extremely addictive, and almost impossible to renounce. Every time a person in tune with the Force called on the dark side, they became more and more addicted to the power it brought them. The dark side's corruptive influences could take control in moments. Although the Jedi primarily characterized the dark side as little more than a dangerous shortcut to power, those who embraced the dark side did so for many different reasons

Please point out anywhere in there the words "Dark" or "Side"

stop being so basic, the sith code exists to guide the sith to use the dark side of the force... You dont se elight side on the jedi code yet they folow that aspect of the force. Edited February 7, 2012 by Spartanik

[GoggleBoi]

There's pound after pound of hints of this in game.

 

Sith who are not dark side. Yet somehow we're still anomalies.

 

 

It's blatantly obvious where LucasArts stands on this. They are straight up telling you.. there are Sith that are not evil, yet are still Sith.

 

You can argue your vague assumption, but it's not that vague in game.

 

If I may; you are correct. There may, in fact, be Sith who are not 'evil.' That does not make the users of the Light side.

 

The two are not one and the same, nor are they mutually exclusive. The Sith are an order of dark side users. That is the definition of 'Sith'. The Witches of Dathomir are a Dark side cult. That is the definition of a Witch.

 

I am not arguing with you that you cannot play a non-evil Sith. But it is either an oversight by Bioware, or a deliberate choice NOT to alienate customers such as yourself, to include a morality spectrum, regardless of faction choice.

 

To be a Sith you *must* hold to the Sith code, and you *must* use the dark side, as all of their teachings, all of their abilities are rooted in the dark side. The Ancient Sith Species were users of the Dark Side. When the Dark Jedi arrived, the amalgamated their own teachings with that of the Sith, to make a new Order.

 

Put it this way; there is no such thing as a Satanic Christian. It is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a Light Sith. But I will agree that there could be Sith one could define as 'not evil.'

 

Also:

 

Please point out anywhere in there the words "Dark" or "Side"

 

Before Ligtht and Dark, the Force had different names; trying to remember them. But the one actually meant, 'the side of Passion.' So.. There is only Passion is old Jedi for, "There is only the Dark Side."

Edited February 7, 2012 by GoggleBoi

[Lochat]

Utiltiarian? Kantian? Social contract theory?

 

People who haven't put serious time into understanding morality can't even make judgments like this. That doesn't stop them, sadly, but hey...

 

The Sith are, for the most part, evil, but that's really because SW is a terrible, overly simplified IP. The potential for greatness if there, but... too cliche', too black and white for the most part.

[Ziggoratt]

Hmm, I dunno. Let me - oh wait, not using the Dark Side, which is the core of nearly every Sith practice, teaching, technique, philosophy ever.

 

Again, I bring up the fact that the Dark Side is a title (issued by the Jedi) for a part of the force that they don't understand, and has thusly been dubbed "Evil."

 

Dark Side =/= Evil

[TrollBerzerker]

Put it this way; there is no such thing as a Satanic Christian. It is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a Light Sith. But I will agree that there could be Sith one could define as 'not evil.'

 

I feel this is a fairly good argument. However, one must still keep in mind that the dark side is a directly corruptive influence that is nearly impossible to resist if you use it extensively.

[Marak]

If I may; you are correct. There may, in fact, be Sith who are not 'evil.' That does not make the users of the Light side.

 

The two are not one and the same, nor are they mutually exclusive. The Sith are an order of dark side users. That is the definition of 'Sith'. The Witches of Dathomir are a Dark side cult. That is the definition of a Witch.

 

I am not arguing with you that you cannot play a non-evil Sith. But it is either an oversight by Bioware, or a deliberate choice NOT to alienate customers such as yourself, to include a morality spectrum, regardless of faction choice.

 

To be a Sith you *must* hold to the Sith code, and you *must* use the dark side, as all of their teachings, all of their abilities are rooted in the dark side. The Ancient Sith Species were users of the Dark Side. When the Dark Jedi arrived, the amalgamated their own teachings with that of the Sith, to make a new Order.

 

Put it this way; there is no such thing as a Satanic Christian. It is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a Light Sith. But I will agree that there could be Sith one could define as 'not evil.'

 

I completely agree with you. I was just combating the logic that Jedi = Light therefore Jedi = Good and all else = Evil equation.

 

 

That is the nature of this thread though. "Are sith really evil" and my answer is no, not all of them. I am well aware that my character is in fact using force lightning and not pebbles. I'm also aware that I'm madness spec'd. I too adhere to the ocean post. My character plays with fire and runs the risk of being burnt, but due to a self imposed morality they will not.

 

I believe this philosophy has a place in SW and I do not believe it goes against the Sith Code. I think LucasArts agrees with me.

[Kanshan]

Sith Code

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

Jedi Code

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

Why do The Jedi remove themselves from emotion?

If one becomes attached to something, they are more likely to do anything to save it, such as let many die or kill others to save it. When we act out of emotion we forget to use logic and do whatever is needed to serve that emotion. Now, not all emotion is bad, but when it comes time to act for the greater good or betray those we are emotional bonded with, we will most likely choose to save our loved ones, at the greater cost though, Jedi cannot do this.

[BigBashkar]

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

 

This is the Sith Code.

 

 

Please point out anywhere in there the words "Dark" or "Side"

 

You do realize that is simply the mantra, used to reinforce basic teachings, and is no means the only thing they call on? That the actual Sith teachings and traditions go far and above this and this is equivalent to a short prayer, if you want to call it that?

 

Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that in the entirety of the EU the Sith have always preached the strength and superiority of the Dark Side? Or the fact that the Light Side requires you to not call on your passions to use it correctly? Or that "peace is a lie" is incompatible with the light side of the force? Or that the Sith are explicitly defined as a "cult of dark side users?"

 

Go look at the class descriptions and tell me if the Sith Warrior or Sith Inquisitor and tell me they don't blatant state that they use the Dark Side.

 

You've already ignored the fact that mounds of evidence points against you, and that the only bit of evidence you have is that "Well, you can pick light side options in this, which is mostly a gameplay function."

[TrollBerzerker]

Again, I bring up the fact that the Dark Side is a title (issued by the Jedi) for a part of the force that they don't understand, and has thusly been dubbed "Evil."

 

Dark Side =/= Evil

 

No, the dark side is indubitably evil.

 

The Sith are, for the most part, evil, but that's really because SW is a terrible, overly simplified IP. The potential for greatness if there, but... too cliche', too black and white for the most part.

 

This operates off the belief that a cliche is inherently a bad thing and that a black and white view on good and evil doesn't make for a good story. That is your opinion.

[GoggleBoi]

Oh! One more point I wanted to make on the topic of Jedi and no romantic involvement; The 'Jedi' we are playing now are not, uh, 'Cannon.' See, the Jedi we are playing now are actually post-Ruusan reformation Jedi, which doesn't happen until sometime around 1000 BBY... about 2000 years from the period the game is set in.

 

At present, Jedi can be anything, not just Monks. We should be able to be politicians, and troopers, and love is discouraged, not expressly forbidden. Many Jedi had families before it.

[BigBashkar]

I completely agree with you. I was just combating the logic that Jedi = Light therefore Jedi = Good and all else = Evil equation.

 

That is the nature of this thread though. "Are sith really evil" and my answer is no, not all of them. I am well aware that my character is in fact using force lightning and not pebbles. I'm also aware that I'm madness spec'd. I too adhere to the ocean post. My character plays with fire and runs the risk of being burnt, but due to a self imposed morality they will not.

 

I believe this philosophy has a place in SW and I do not believe it goes against the Sith Code. I think LucasArts agrees with me.

 

I didn't even address the ocean post because George Lucas himself has already completely stated that the force doesn't work like that. You cannot "combat" the logic of the dark side being evil, because it's already been stated by the creator of Star Wars itself that the force is balanced when there are no dark side users. Using the dark side itself is an evil, destructive act, not only to the user but is considered to be causing an imbalance in the force.

 

If your character has ever shown mercy, he has contradicted the Sith code. If they are light sided, they are definitely contradicting the Sith code.

[Marak]

You do realize that is simply the mantra, used to reinforce basic teachings, and is no means the only thing they call on? That the actual Sith teachings and traditions go far and above this and this is equivalent to a short prayer, if you want to call it that?

 

Are you seriously going to ignore the fact that in the entirety of the EU the Sith have always preached the strength and superiority of the Dark Side? Or the fact that the Light Side requires you to not call on your passions to use it correctly? Or that "peace is a lie" is incompatible with the light side of the force? Or that the Sith are explicitly defined as a "cult of dark side users?"

 

Go look at the class descriptions and tell me if the Sith Warrior or Sith Inquisitor and tell me they don't blatant state that they use the Dark Side.

 

You've already ignored the fact that mounds of evidence points against you, and that the only bit of evidence you have is that "Well, you can pick light side options in this, which is mostly a gameplay function."

 

Strawman much?

 

If you have mounds of evidence.. let's see it.

 

And what of the mounds of evidence against you? Nothing in the Sith Code, which were your words.. not mine--I just showed you what the Sith Code actually was, states anything about being a brutal, deceitful, or any other sort of negatives. Also there are quests IN THE GAME that show SITH being GOOD. Ergo.. NOT ALL SITH ARE EVIL.

 

And LucasArts would not sign off on a simple gameplay decision to retcon later. They will either reconcile it or they already have. It's not difficult to understand this. LucasArts had all final say in matters regarding the lore. There were no accidents.