Are Sith really evil?

[BigBashkar]

You already said that a Jedi cannot be evil-- he is a Sith. This is proven wrong. So your whole equation is wrong.

 

If there exists a Dark Jedi then there must exist the possibility of a Light Sith.

 

A Jedi can be evil. This is what we call a fallen Jedi - they have succumbed to the dark side, and are no longer living up to the Jedi code nor are channeling the light side of the force. A dark Jedi is simply a fallen Jedi, and would not be tolerated by the order as they are actively consumed by the dark side.

 

The dark side, as defined by the EU, is a cancer on the force. It is not an equal but opposite aspect of the Force. The true force, the actual correct manifestation of it, is the light side.

 

Gray Jedi - more often then not - are Jedi that tempt the dark side, pushing towards it (but not actually using it) and often disobey the Jedi's teachings. Revan was one such Jedi, who eventually fell to the dark side - as he pushed too far - and decided to become a Sith. Note that he decided - he did not just suddenly become one, rather, he decided to perfect his mastery of the force by becoming a Sith.

 

To be a Jedi who uses the dark side is to go against the code of the Jedi, and thus you are no longer a Jedi - you are merely an imposter. The same would be said of a Sith who has gone to the light side. You violate too many of the core principals of the Sith to effectively be one in anything but name. You cannot use both the light side and the dark side - you are either a light sider tempting the dark side, or a dark sider. If you are corrupted by the dark side you are simply infused with it's power head to toe, and it slowly destroys you (sith corruption) as it is not natural nor a proper use of the force.

 

Using force lightning and other dark side power requires negative emotions. Channeling the force with negative emotions leads to the dark side, which is correctly reflected in KOTOR 1 & 2 (dark side moves cost more if you are not dark side, and are almost completely unusable) and in other games like Jedi Knight - the more dark side powers you have, the more you are warned.

 

It is also always reflected this way in the EU and in the movies. Luke Skywalker's use of rage when fighting Vader in Return of the Jedi, and his use of force choke to weaken the guards to Jabba's palace are indicative of his temptation and the fact he was becoming like his father - such things he uses to step back and not let his hate consume him.

 

Being a Light Sith is thus inherently a contradiction. You would be ignoring the Sith code and thus be only a Sith in name. Is this possible to do? Yes, but you wouldn't really be a Sith then - it would be like saying you're a skateboarder but you don't ever touch your skateboard.

[MandelynRain]

Marek give it up, he is obviously a narrow minded individual who knows all about Star Wars and lore, even if all has been APPROVED by Lucasarts and the powers that be. He honestly reminds me of talking to a wall. He also probably believes the Crusades were justified and the Inquisition was a fun party. Because they were instigated by the "good" guys. Hey I know a few witches you can come and burn also since we are "evil".

[Marak]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_side_of_the_Force

 

Your character is an exception to the rule. One that I still don't feel makes any real sense. Did you feel particularly light-sided while on Taris? Or Alderaan? I didn't. I felt like the mere concept of playing a light sided sith was beginning to fall apart at the seams.

 

 

Again.. the fact that they put it in the game means it is a part of lore now. Do I have to log on to wikia and add a caveat for you to accept it? Because that's all it would take if you're going to keep linking the same "proof", which is user generated.

 

edit: and honestly it's sketchy proof at that. Look at the Palpatine picture and the description "Darth Sidious, deformed by decades of immersion in the dark side". Palpatine was deformed because he fried himself in his dual with Windu.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Marak

[BigBashkar]

Again.. the fact that they put it in the game means it is a part of lore now. Do I have to log on to wikia and add a caveat for you to accept it? Because that's all it would take if you're going to keep linking the same "proof", which is user generated.

 

This is incorrect as gameplay is often ignored, and only actual events that occur within the stories selected to be canon. Not only this, but contradictory elements and even entire storylines can be rendered non-canon when they decide what is real - for example, Light Side Male Revan and Light Side Female Exile inherently render many scenes and aspects as non-canon.

 

The fact your Sith has a bar that says 0 Dark Side means nothing and proves nothing and is also in contradiction to multiple sources that are far older and higher canon. Considering that it is merely a gameplay aspect, look to the story - you are a Sith who is not using the Dark Side and thus not truly a Sith, but a light side user masquerading as a Sith.

 

Not only this, but the majority of TOR is in an amorphous section and 'still-pending' - in other words the canonicity of events are nebulous at best and not decided.

[TrollBerzerker]

Again.. the fact that they put it in the game means it is a part of lore now. Do I have to log on to wikia and add a caveat for you to accept it? Because that's all it would take if you're going to keep linking the same "proof", which is user generated.

 

No, it doesn't. I'm pretty sure your character isn't canon to the Star Wars lore. There's a million other inquisitors who went through the same story in a huge variety of different ways.

Edited February 7, 2012 by TrollBerzerker

[Marak]

This is incorrect as gameplay is often ignored, and only actual events that occur within the stories selected to be canon. Not only this, but contradictory elements and even entire storylines can be rendered non-canon when they decide what is real - for example, Light Side Male Revan and Light Side Female Exile inherently render many scenes and aspects as non-canon.

 

The fact your Sith has a bar that says 0 Dark Side means nothing and proves nothing and is also in contradiction to multiple sources that are far older and higher canon. Considering that it is merely a gameplay aspect, look to the story - you are a Sith who is not using the Dark Side and thus not truly a Sith, but a light side user masquerading as a Sith.

 

Not only this, but the majority of TOR is in an amorphous section and 'still-pending' - in other words the canonicity of events are nebulous at best and not decided.

 

What it proves is the inherent possibility of a LS Sith. It doesn't mean that there is a LS Sith in canon. It just means that there CAN be.

 

Edit: And do you think that LucasArts will have the balls to RetCon TOR? It won't happen.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Marak

[BigBashkar]

What it proves is the inherent possibility of a LS Sith. It doesn't mean that there is a LS Sith in canon. It just means that there CAN be.

 

A Light Side Sith would end up disagreeing with the Sith code. Too much of the Sith way relies on brutality, intensity and using one's emotions. Either they would get pulled into the dark side by trying to employ that, or they would find themselves abandoning the Sith and the Sith code altogether.

 

Ignoring the Jedi completely, just using the Force correctly as it's meant to be used requires peace of mind and emotion, and a suppression of negative feelings when using the force. The Sith code itself contradicts this on two occasions.

[TrollBerzerker]

What it proves is the inherent possibility of a LS Sith. It doesn't mean that there is a LS Sith in canon. It just means that there CAN be.

 

I feel as though you missed the point of his post, and the point I've been trying to make this whole thread.

 

A sith can be light-sided, but when they go down that path, they are by definition no longer sith. They aren't harnessing the dark side of the force anymore. Problem is, your's is. Which shouldn't be possible, but is. As I said, you are an exception to the rule. Be thankful Bioware gave you the option.

[Marak]

A Light Side Sith would end up disagreeing with the Sith code. Too much of the Sith way relies on brutality, intensity and using one's emotions. Either they would get pulled into the dark side by trying to employ that, or they would find themselves abandoning the Sith and the Sith code altogether.

 

Ignoring the Jedi completely, just using the Force correctly as it's meant to be used requires peace of mind and emotion, and a suppression of negative feelings when using the force. The Sith code itself contradicts this on two occasions.

 

How? Where in the Sith code does it say "be brutal"?

 

And what do you mean "meant to be used"? Who says? You?

[Marak]

I feel as though you missed the point of his post, and the point I've been trying to make this whole thread.

 

A sith can be light-sided, but when they go down that path, they are by definition no longer sith. They aren't harnessing the dark side of the force anymore. Problem is, your's is. Which shouldn't be possible, but is. As I said, you are an exception to the rule. Be thankful Bioware gave you the option.

 

And you have yet to establish why they would no longer be Sith.

 

Nothing in the Sith code states that you have to be a homicidal sociopath with a penchant for kicking puppies. It states that you CAN be that, but no where does it state that you must.

[BigBashkar]

How? Where in the Sith code does it say "be brutal"?

 

And what do you mean "meant to be used"? Who says? You?

 

Who says? Well, the entirety of the EU. The Dark Side of the Force has been referred to - byt the creator of Star Wars, and further supported by every piece of EU - as a cancer, and is an incorrect way to use the force. The normal, default force is just the Light Side - so really, there's just the Force and the Dark Side. Using the Dark Side is twisting it and corrupting it. They are not equal but opposite sides, one is simply a misuse of the force.

 

The entirety of the Sith teachings focuses on the desire to find victory and to seek conflict. A very core aspect of their Sith beliefs is that conflict destroys the weak and causes the victor to grow stronger.

 

The Sith race itself are the ultimate manifestation of this, seeking to destroy and conquer everything before them through any means necessary - they have no love of any sort of mercy, or true honor.

 

The Sith, in practice of their code, will be brutal by nature. You can somehow re-interpret the code and their beliefs to somehow infer that you could be nice and not brutal as a Sith, but that would again be in direct contradiction to what the Sith have done all throughout Star Wars lore.. so, you wouldn't be a Sith then.

[Ziggoratt]

"The Dark Side of the Force is a path to many abilities, some considered to be.. Unnatural..." -- Chancellor Palpatine

 

The problem here is that you, like so many others, are looking at the Dark Side of the Force as inherently evil. Here's what my extensive study and debate has revealed to me.

 

There is the Force. An infinite, endless force that flows through the universe, beyond the understanding of any mortal. The Light Side and Dark Side are just labels, given to different areas of the Force by the first society of Force Users: The Jedi.

 

Think of the Force as an ocean. The Light Side, which is the area used by Force-Users who practice restraint, is the shallow waters of that ocean. The Dark Side is the rest of the ocean.

 

Dark-Side users themselves don't understand the depths of the Dark Side, because the Dark Side is the most extensive area of the Force; The area that cannot be reached with restraint.

 

And again, I bring up the fact that the Dark Side is just a name for the area of the Force that people don't understand, and, by conventional Jedi means, have extreme difficulty reaching. Therefore, the Sith discovered new methods of delving deeper into the Force: Using extremities of emotion and passion as a conduit for their Force Powers. Some Sith even devised rituals to unlock new powers of the Force.

 

Now I return to the ocean metaphor. If the Force is an ocean, and the Dark Side is the deep end, think of corruption as pressure. As you dive deeper into the ocean, you'll start to feel the effects of pressure. If you strapped weights to yourself so you'd sink deeper and deeper into the ocean (Using rituals to sink into deeper powers of the Dark Side), the pressure will begin to take its toll on your body, slowly crushing it (Signs of corruption on the body).

 

The Dark Side isn't evil. It may have started that way in the original trilogy, but it's expanded with the rest of the Star Wars universe, becoming a deeper issue than just "Evil." It's the area of the Force that Jedi are too timid to tamper with.

 

Returning to the ocean metaphor for one last, closing statement...

 

The Jedi are people who stay in the shallow end of the pool because they're afraid of drowning. The Sith are free divers who embrace the chance of drowning without fear. Neither side of the force represents good or evil because of one undeniable factor:

 

In the end, there is only The Force.

In the end

[TrollBerzerker]

And you have yet to establish why they would no longer be Sith.

 

Nothing in the Sith code states that you have to be a homicidal sociopath with a penchant for kicking puppies. It states that you CAN be that, but no where does it state that you must.

 

The mere fact they use the dark side is all that matters. You're using the sith code as the example of why the sith are not evil. Like I said before, you could look at the jedi code and you wouldn't see anything about them doing good. What ultimately counts is where they draw their power from.

 

All one needs to do is look at Anakin. He wanted to save Padme, his intentions were pure, but the dark side is too evil to be used for good. A light-sided sith might intend to do good with their powers, but the nature of the dark side would drag them down and make them evil, even if they didn't want to be.

 

"The Dark Side of the Force is a path to many abilities, some considered to be.. Unnatural..." -- Chancellor Palpatine

 

You nullified your own point by bringing up a quote made by a character who is evil, in an attempt to corrupt Anakin into his way of thinking. The sith might view the dark side that way, but you'll never find any villain in any serious narrative who honestly considers themselves evil.

 

The sith don't consider themselves evil, even the most black-hearted of them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are. The EU has never done anything to change that, nor has it done anything to make the dark side anything but evil.

 

We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Palpatine is either lying or fooling himself.

[Marak]

The mere fact they use the dark side is all that matters. You're using the sith code as the example of why the sith are not evil. Like I said before, you could look at the jedi code and you wouldn't see anything about them doing good. What ultimately counts is where they draw their power from.

 

All one needs to do is look at Anakin. He wanted to save Padme, his intentions were pure, but the dark side is too evil to be used for good. A light-sided sith might intend to do good with their powers, but the nature of the dark side would drag them down and make them evil, even if they didn't want to be.

 

 

 

You nullified your own point by bringing up a quote made by a character who is evil, in an attempt to corrupt Anakin into his way of thinking. The sith might view the dark side that way, but you'll never find any villain in any serious narrative who honestly considers themselves evil.

 

The sith don't consider themselves evil, even the most black-hearted of them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are. The EU has never done anything to change that, nor has it done anything to make the dark side anything but evil.

 

We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Palpatine is either lying or fooling himself.

 

Except.. you know.. put it in the game.

[Agasius]

neither faction is really good, but Sith are more evil especially compared to modern societies of today. The sith would be similar in many ways to Sparta.

 

erm...NO?

 

 

edit: being Greek I see no connection between the two, but ofc you can explain your POV

 

 

p.s spartans would be mandalorians maybe, before they got scattered throughout the galaxy after the jedi civil war.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Agasius

[BigBashkar]

Except.. you know.. put it in the game.

 

We've already been over this, buddy. That's not how the EU nor the lore of Star Wars has ever worked. Games don't enter canon automatically and many of the events are left in limbo until it's decided what is canon.

 

Your Inquisitor is Light Sided? I know over a ten thousand players who have Dark Sided ones. Is yours male? I know female ones. For all we know, "light sided Inquisitor" is a non-canon option.

 

But we're not going to know until they decide. It's like how we didn't know the Exile was a canon Light Side Female until they made it so. However, given that being a Light Sided Sith Warrior or Inquisitor contradicts and doesn't sit well in many cases with the rest of the EU, it's very likely to be declared non-canon and the Dark Side path made true.

 

Just cause it's true in the gameplay doesn't make it true anywhere else.

[TrollBerzerker]

Except.. you know.. put it in the game.

 

Sadly I can't debate this without spoilers.

 

 

At the end of act 1, my sith warrior basically confirmed she was no longer a sith. Jaesa saw her as 'a warrior of the light wearing the mask of a sith'. This very statement is all you need to know. By being a light-sided character, I was no longer a sith. My character then agreed with her.

 

However, this entire plot was dropped at the beginning of Act 2 and never touched on again. Act 2 and on, I was an evil sith who was more merciful and honorable than others of her order, but still vicious and power hungry. Lawful Evil, basically.

 

 

Perhaps it isn't this way for the inquisitor, but the inquisitor is an impossibility in and of itself. No one can use force lightning that extensively and remain pure. Unless they are an exception to the rule.

[Ziggoratt]

You nullified your own point by bringing up a quote made by a character who is evil, in an attempt to corrupt Anakin into his way of thinking. The sith might view the dark side that way, but you'll never find any villain in any serious narrative who honestly considers themselves evil.

 

The sith don't consider themselves evil, even the most black-hearted of them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are. The EU has never done anything to change that, nor has it done anything to make the dark side anything but evil.

 

We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Palpatine is either lying or fooling himself.

 

And you missed the point of my use of the quote. Yes, Palpatine, is evil, and was trying to seduce Anakin with the idea of power.. But that's not what I meant by quoting him. What I was trying to hint at is that the force is massive, and can never be truly understood.

[Guildrum]

Genocide, slavery, warmongering, no self-control, racism, murder, treachery and treason.

 

You take... Hitler, Pre-War Dixie, the Mongols, a teenager, 1950's America, a serial killer, and Benedict Arnold and you get the Empire. How are they NOT evil?

[Marak]

We've already been over this, buddy. That's not how the EU nor the lore of Star Wars has ever worked. Games don't enter canon automatically and many of the events are left in limbo until it's decided what is canon.

 

Your Inquisitor is Light Sided? I know over a ten thousand players who have Dark Sided ones. Is yours male? I know female ones. For all we know, "light sided Inquisitor" is a non-canon option.

 

But we're not going to know until they decide. It's like how we didn't know the Exile was a canon Light Side Female until they made it so. However, given that being a Light Sided Sith Warrior or Inquisitor contradicts and doesn't sit well in many cases with the rest of the EU, it's very likely to be declared non-canon and the Dark Side path made true.

 

Just cause it's true in the gameplay doesn't make it true anywhere else.

 

You are trying to apply my character as if it was Revan in a single player RPG. That is not how you look at this as far as canon goes. Leeland Chee is going to have to reconcile the tens of thousands of light sided Sith users like me in TOR in canon.

 

It will probably all be done up in a nice little Revanite bow as a subcult or something, but it will be reconciled. They aren't going to retcon the biggest SW project ever.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Marak

[BigBashkar]

You are trying to apply my character as if it was Revan in a single player RPG. That is not how you look at this as far as canon goes. Leeland Chee is going to have to reconcile tens of thousands of light sided Sith users in canon.

 

It will probably all be done up in a nice little Revanite bow as a subcult or something, but it will be reconciled. They aren't going to retcon the biggest SW project ever.

 

Oh? Have you ever played Star Wars Galaxies? It's that other Star Wars MMO that rolled all the characters ever into one amorphous, vague person called "the spacer."

 

BioWare only needs to reconcile the events of one individual Sith Inquisitor into a storyline. Multiple Sith Inquisitors can't exist - there storylines would disgustingly contradict each other. They aren't going to retcon it - instead, they're going to choose one path, one physical description and one series of events to be canon to the rest of the Star Wars universe, just like they did with KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, just like they've done with decades of Star Wars lore.

[Guildrum]

Oh? Have you ever played Star Wars Galaxies? It's that other Star Wars MMO that rolled all the characters ever into one amorphous, vague person called "the spacer."

 

BioWare only needs to reconcile the events of one individual Sith Inquisitor into a storyline. Multiple Sith Inquisitors can't exist - there storylines would disgustingly contradict each other. They aren't going to retcon it - instead, they're going to choose one path, one physical description and one series of events to be canon to the rest of the Star Wars universe, just like they did with KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, just like they've done with decades of Star Wars lore.

 

I agree. How would they recognize thousands of Darkside, merc-attitude Troopers, as well as thousands of duty-bound Troopers, all the CO of Havoc Squad? Each class is one person we are playing as.

[TrollBerzerker]

You are trying to apply my character as if it was Revan in a single player RPG. That is not how you look at this as far as canon goes. Leeland Chee is going to have to reconcile the tens of thousands of light sided Sith users like me in TOR in canon.

 

It will probably all be done up in a nice little Revanite bow as a subcult or something, but it will be reconciled. They aren't going to retcon the biggest SW project ever.

 

More likely they'll leave the events of the eight different TOR class stories ambiguous. No matter how you play your character, certain events will always happen the same way, and those are the ones that count.

 

In your mind, your inquisitor was a merciful light-sided character throughout those events. In your mind, those events are canon. Just like everyone else who played the inquisitor storyline. But in this case, you have to accept that your inquisitor is an anomaly. What she or he is doing should not be possible, and s/he is a very exceptional individual for being able to tap so deeply into the dark side and remain pure.

 

That doesn't mean it's going to happen ever again, anywhere. It also doesn't make the rest of the sith nor the dark side of the force good.

[Marak]

Oh? Have you ever played Star Wars Galaxies? It's that other Star Wars MMO that rolled all the characters ever into one amorphous, vague person called "the spacer."

 

BioWare only needs to reconcile the events of one individual Sith Inquisitor into a storyline. Multiple Sith Inquisitors can't exist - there storylines would disgustingly contradict each other. They aren't going to retcon it - instead, they're going to choose one path, one physical description and one series of events to be canon to the rest of the Star Wars universe, just like they did with KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, just like they've done with decades of Star Wars lore.

 

I simply disagree. The fact that the Revanites even exist in this game show exactly where LucasArts is headed with this. None of this was accidental or a byproduct of gameplay.

[GoggleBoi]

 

I'll start this off by presenting my own opinion on the matter. I personally believe the Sith to be a morally-neutral organization, one that has a select few bad seeds scattered here and there. The Sith use passion and emotion as conduits of the Force, as opposed to the Jedi, who use Inner Peace instead. The Jedi recognize that there are areas of the Force that cannot truly be understood or entirely controlled... Areas that they dare not access. Therefore, they practice restraint, dubbing this unexplored territory the "Dark Side" of the Force, and condemning any and all practitioners of its arts.

 

 

I see the point you, and others, are trying to make here and it is a matter of 'perspective,' as all have said. That being said, here is my perspective:

 

While 'love' is good, and a needed part of our psyche, I see the Jedi rejecting its attachment, not love itself. Love is good. But we become attached to the person or object we love. This attachment leads to many negative things; anger, hate, jealousy, paranoia. There are hundreds of stories of love turning dark. Does that make love wrong? Evil? Certainly not. Does it create a potential for that love to become twisted by our own deep-rooted fears? Certainly.

 

In addition, love prioritises. Those we love rank higher than those we like, and both trump those we dislike. Those we hate receive barely a thought at all, unless it is negative in nature. Jedi seek to be compassionate, rather than passionate, because a compassionate person places no priority at all. All are of equal worth and value.

 

So, you asked, "Are the Sith evil?" That would depend on your definition of evil. In our day, there are many definitions. Sith are, by their nature, selfish, self-centred, egotistical, entitled, elitist, uncompromising, demanding, driven, greedy, and arrogant; frequently they are hate-filled, seek to enter rage-states to tap their power, and are mentally and emotionally compromised by their own choices and will. While all of this is generally considered 'negative,' it is not inherently 'evil.' However, a SITH, and not simply a dark side user - who share many of the above traits - espouses fear, hate and anger as the primary means of accessing power. Sith have no interests in concepts such as 'love,' or 'compassion.' The respect only strength, only power. But they operate in a state in which their judgement is compromised. They make snap decisions, based on emotion, rather than consideration.

 

 

Mind you, I don't entirely agree with the Jedi paradigm, either; I think Emotion and Logic should be in balance. But I do understand the point of view from which the Jedi approach the universe; Unrestrained emotion, passion fuelled fits of rage, anger, hate, lust, greed, etc have lead to the most heinous of crimes in our very real history, as well as the history of the Star Wars universe. The Jedi, with all their power, practise restraint to aid the galaxy, to protect it, and see any who use that same power for their own ends as 'wrong.' I don't think they consider the Sith inherently 'evil,' but rather reserve judgement until a Sith commits evil acts; such as murdering Younglings, or blowing up planets, or removing Sentients' rights and freedoms.