AngelousWang Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) And yet, as any Sith-player knows, there is such thing as a merciful Sith. It is not a prerequisite for being Sith to be a cruel, merciless killer. That's just a path that some take. That because you are imposing your own morality upon your character. You are not following Sith morality. (Unless you were an alien captured from a non-Sith world, then you are can justify you character having a non-Sith morality). "Ask for no mercy and receive none, Die like a Sith" - The Sith Warrior. This is basic Sith morality. Edited February 7, 2012 by AngelousWang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Loads of misconceptions in this thread. Yes, the sith are evil. Their ideology is evil. You can't throw a debate as to what is truly good or evil into this, because Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil, not mere philosophical concepts. The sith and everything about them is evil. No, you can't channel the dark side using positive emotions. You can't use love and compassion as a sith. The dark side fosters negative emotions, and is fueled by them. Force Lightning is pure hatred given destructive form, and it can only be channeled with hatred. Attempting to use the dark side will ultimately cause you to be ruled by negative emotions. The concept that sith can embrace positive emotions is born from the thought that jedi seek to suppress all emotions. Jedi do not seek to become emotionless, they seek to keep their emotions from guiding them, to think with a level head. Jedi still have positive emotions. They still experience love and friendship, they still know happiness and compassion. The goal of the jedi ideology is to prevent those emotions from ruling you. Edit:Also, the light-sided merciful sith that we can play in TOR technically should not be possible. Edited February 7, 2012 by TrollBerzerker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marak Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Loads of misconceptions in this thread. Yes, the sith are evil. Their ideology is evil. You can't throw a debate as to what is truly good or evil into this, because Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil, not mere philosophical concepts. The sith and everything about them is evil. No, you can't channel the dark side using positive emotions. You can't use love and compassion as a sith. The dark side fosters negative emotions, and is fueled by them. Force Lightning is pure hatred given destructive form, and it can only be channeled with hatred. The concept that sith can embrace positive emotions is born from the thought that jedi seek to suppress all emotions. Jedi do not seek to become emotionless, they seek to keep their emotions from guiding them, to think with a level head. Jedi still have positive emotions. They still experience love and friendship, they still know happiness and compassion. The goal of the jedi ideology is to prevent those emotions from ruling you. None of what you just said is actually true. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. By the very existence of "dark jedi" and "light sith" in the lore, not even TOR but the EU in general, means we are operating in varying shades of grey here. Edited February 7, 2012 by Marak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 None of what you just said is actually true. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. By the vary existence of "dark jedi" and "light sith" in the lore, not even TOR but the EU in general, means we are operating in varying shades of grey here. I agree, but I think you have to admit that most sith tend strongly towards the more black side of the grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 None of what you just said is actually true. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. By the very existence of "dark jedi" and "light sith" in the lore, not even TOR but the EU in general, means we are operating in varying shades of grey here. The sith do not operate off of positive emotions - True The dark side is inherently evil and negative - True The dark side powers are fueled by negative emotions - True Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil - True The jedi don't seek to become emotionless - True The jedi still experience positive emotions - True Dark jedi and light sith - the product of bad writers who don't understand the very basic concepts that Star Wars and the force are built upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marak Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree, but I think you have to admit that most sith tend strongly towards the more black side of the grey area. I won't disagree with that at all. I would even go so far as to say something in the upper 90s percentage of Sith are morally "evil". I just argue that being Sith doesn't intrinsically make them so. It does however grant a large predisposition to it, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggoratt Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Dark jedi and light sith - the product of bad writers who don't understand the very basic concepts that Star Wars and the force are built upon. Like it or not, both are canon, both are part of the EU, and both were approved by George Lucas. Therefore, they are a part of this discussion =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marak Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The sith do not operate off of positive emotions - True The dark side is inherently evil and negative - True The dark side powers are fueled by negative emotions - True Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil - True The jedi don't seek to become emotionless - True The jedi still experience positive emotions - True Dark jedi and light sith - the product of bad writers who don't understand the very basic concepts that Star Wars and the force are built upon. I do not agree with the underlined premise. And we're talking Sith-- not Dark Side Force Users. Nothing in the Sith code says you even have to use force lightning, et al. And there are always exceptions to every rule. Let's assume Force Lightning is the root of all evil for a minute. Episode 2-- Yoda v Tyranus. Does Yoda not, in fact, use force lightning to counter force lightning? Does this make Yoda evil? No it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupOHemlock Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 really? because my JK quest mentioned ignoring those twilek until they actually had something the jedi needed... It was an option yes, but did you take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Dark jedi and light sith - the product of bad writers who don't understand the very basic concepts that Star Wars and the force are built upon. I agree with all you other pionts. But here: Dark Jedi are very likly. Read it as: Started as light Jedi, but fell to the Dark Side. Still staying inside the Order. Maybe hiding it. Example from the game: Nomen Karr His Pride and Hatered for Baras have grown inside him a long time, but on the Outside he still performed a good Jedi. Only as the Sith Warrior is about to defeat him, hi shows his true face and starts to use the dark side. Light Sith: Not that much explored. There are some Sith who were Redemed and left the Sith. There could be Sith who are moderate light side. They couldn't use Dark Side powers anymore, but still use ther lightsaber and the normal forcepowers. Example from the game: maybe Darth Silther He is a lower ranking Darth, but mainly an explorer. He treats his lowers very well and is kind to everyone. He searches for powerful artifacts, but seems to have no intention to harm or to overthrow his leaders. Yes, he uses Force lighting one time, when he is in a battle for life and death. In such situations it is possible for a normally light-gray person to turn dark and use hatered. One officer even says: He wouldn't have used lightning if he wasn't desperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Like it or not, both are canon, both are part of the EU, and both were approved by George Lucas. Therefore, they are a part of this discussion =/ George Lucas doesn't personally approve everything that happens in the EU. In fact, he doesn't even consider the EU canon to his movies. There are certain things he writes off on, certain things he requests, and certain things he likes, but the EU itself is full of contradictions and canon conflictions. I do not agree with the underlined premise. And we're talking Sith-- not Dark Side Force Users. Nothing in the Sith code says you even have to use force lightning, et al. And there are always exceptions to every rule. Let's assume Force Lightning is the root of all evil for a minute. Episode 2-- Yoda v Tyranus. Does Yoda not, in fact, use force lightning to counter force lightning? Does this make Yoda evil? No it does not. If you mean this it looks like he's just absorbing the power and discharging it again, not directly generating it himself. But yes, Star Wars does have a clearly defined good and evil. But even in settings like this, there will always be shades of gray. For example Gray Jedi and the Gray Knights. I agree with all you other pionts. But here: Dark Jedi are very likly. Read it as: Started as light Jedi, but fell to the Dark Side. Still staying inside the Order. Maybe hiding it. Oh yes, there's no doubt that there are fallen jedi and redeemed sith. When I say 'dark jedi and light side sith', I mean a character who is a jedi while still actively and frequently using dark side powers with no effect on his moral standing, and with no corruption. I mean the same when I say light-sided sith - a sith who uses dark side powers frequently but is somehow good aligned. Characters who do that technically shouldn't be possible. At the very least, extremely rare, and any character who does use them should have a very good reason for being able to. I think Plo Koon used 'justice lightning' or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krimsonkrow Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Didn't Mace Windu, a light side Jedi council member, use a dark side fighting stance? Your binary views on morality are naive, nothing is simply good or evil. The fact that you can't see the star wars universe as something to be explored and thought about means you should probly never have picked up the game in the first place. Watch the movies, read the books, don't pick an interactive medium if you aren't ready to have people contribute to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Oh yes, there's no doubt that there are fallen jedi and redeemed sith. When I say 'dark jedi and light side sith', I mean a character who is a jedi while still actively and frequently using dark side powers with no effect on his moral standing, and with no corruption. I mean the same when I say light-sided sith - a sith who uses dark side powers frequently but is somehow good aligned. Characters who do that technically shouldn't be possible. At the very least, extremely rare, and any character who does use them should have a very good reason for being able to. I think Plo Koon used 'justice lightning' or something? I think it would have been more plausible if JK/SW and JC/SI used mainly the same forcepowers, but as you claim higher in light/dark some very awsome powers of this side got unlocked. That's game mechanics mainly, I think. Didn't Mace Windu, a light side Jedi council member, use a dark side fighting stance? Yes, he did. And he knew it was really dangerous. Others tried to do it and fell. So in lore you have to be extremly skilled to use the opposite site. Edited February 7, 2012 by Maaruin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Didn't Mace Windu, a light side Jedi council member, use a dark side fighting stance? Your binary views on morality are naive, nothing is simply good or evil. The fact that you can't see the star wars universe as something to be explored and thought about means you should probly never have picked up the game in the first place. Watch the movies, read the books, don't pick an interactive medium if you aren't ready to have people contribute to it. Don't confuse what I'm saying with a belief that all characters fit into a clearly good or clearly evil category. As I said, there will always be shades of gray. What I'm talking about is the foundations of Star Wars. There is a clearly defined good and evil in Star Wars, but no character will ever perfectly fit either. Mace Windu's Vaapad form is essentially the same as Plo Koon's justice lightning - there's something about Mace Windu that makes it so that he can use it without falling. In specific, I believe Vaapad was only considered a particularly vicious form of fighting focused on lethal attacks. It could be performed without falling to the dark side, but only a dark side user could unlock its full potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediOwner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yes, the sith are evil. Their ideology is evil. You can't throw a debate as to what is truly good or evil into this, because Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil, not mere philosophical concepts. The sith and everything about them is evil. No, you can't channel the dark side using positive emotions. You can't use love and compassion as a sith. The dark side fosters negative emotions, and is fueled by them. Force Lightning is pure hatred given destructive form, and it can only be channeled with hatred. Attempting to use the dark side will ultimately cause you to be ruled by negative emotions. What's interesting about this post to me is that it is exactly what the Jedi want everyone to think about the Sith. It's the "politically correct" view, in the social context of the society of the Galactic Republic. Whether it's accurate or not isn't an objective truth, it's a matter of subjective opinion. Very much like the real world, with conservatives and liberals. The real world perhaps isn't as extreme (for most of us who are sane), but the misunderstandings and miscomprehensions between the two groups are similar. It's remarkable to see that captured so well in a video game. And an MMO at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) What's interesting about this post to me is that it is exactly what the Jedi want everyone to think about the Sith. It's the "politically correct" view, in the social context of the society of the Galactic Republic. And Sith Propagande says: Sith is all about Passion, Jedi is all about suppressing Emotions. And far to many people believe it. Edited February 7, 2012 by Maaruin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What's interesting about this post to me is that it is exactly what the Jedi want everyone to think about the Sith. It's the "politically correct" view, in the social context of the society of the Galactic Republic. Whether it's accurate or not isn't an objective truth, it's a matter of subjective opinion. It's really not, that's the point. The sith are evil, there's never been any attempt to make this ambiguous. When it comes to true sith, it's varying degrees of evil. Some sith are honorable, preferring a clean fight and to give their opponents a chance to fight, but ultimately they seek to conquer and gain power. Some sith are destructive, deceitful, dishonorable and malicious. But no matter what, a sith can't ever truly be good, it would require them to abandon everything that the sith stand for. The LS Sith Warrior's act 1 deals with this. By the end of it, your character is no longer even a sith. However, this (very interesting, imo) plot is dropped as soon as act 2 begins, and from then on you're simply an honorable sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaruin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) The LS Sith Warrior's act 1 deals with this. By the end of it, your character is no longer even a sith. However, this (very interesting, imo) plot is dropped as soon as act 2 begins, and from then on you're simply an honorable sith. Really? http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ (I'd say he still is a Sith on the paper. He has the title of a lord among the Sith, has a Sith master and is part of the Sith order. But he has his hidden agenda. Which conflicts with Sith orthodoxy of course, so he is a heretic sith.) Edited February 7, 2012 by Maaruin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droidist Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The jedi might ignore evil, and let it happen, the sith go out of their way to cause evil and enjoy inflicting suffering on people if it stimulates emotion in themselves. The sith are actively evil, the jedi are passive in letting evil happen, however, I imagine each side has outliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollBerzerker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Really? http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ That's how I felt about it, you may feel differently though. I was very disappointed personally, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthBloodloss Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well if you judge them based off random cultural facts read on various wiki pages, sure they are the same. But if you judge them by their actions, they are polar opposites. All the Sith in the movies are evil, and for the most part all of the Jedi are good. (The only real exception is how they reference that Qui-Gon doesn't listen to the council. I guess hes more chaotic good than lawful good.) And in-game, many of the Sith quests involve evil acts. The Jedi quests involve good acts. Although there are many articles about "point of view", in practical application there are very few (or none at all) cannon or in-game examples of Good Sith or Evil Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickpaw Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The Sith seek to purge all weakness from themselves. This in and of itself is not an evil goal, but (and I do stress but): The Sith see mercy as the ultimate weakness. Subordinates are killed for failure of any kind no matter the circumstance, they destroy anything that could be used against them (remember what happened with Malgus and his twilek lover? Uh huh), and seek power for its own sake. Of course one of TOR's main focuses is making a clear difference between faction and morality. But the Sith seek to destroy everything and anything that opposes them, no matter the cost. And they despise the Jedi for existing, while the Jedi fight the Sith when the Sith do bad things. The greatest wish of any Sith is to become immortal ("A true Sith never dies!"), so the thing they fear most of all is death. The loss of their power. My clincher: The Sith Emperor, the one who has created this society, plans to consume all life in the galaxy after having done it to his homeworld. The Empire and Sith of TOR era are just his pawns, tools that he intends to destroy once all opposition has been anihilated. To be Sith, true Sith (not light or Grey Sith), is to crave power at any cost, and attrocities are not only allowed, but encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krimsonkrow Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 If you're just going by what the movies are showing you, you have to understand that they are all from the Jedi's perspective. Of course the opposing side is going to look "evil" in comparison, you know what your side is more intimately. You know the motivations and relationships on the Jedi's side because you see it in front of you. You never really get to see the innerworkings of the sith order, you know they could be throwing office parties, keggers, and whatnot. My point is you don't know as much about the sith as you do the jedi because that's how the movies wanted it, just enough to support the given story that they are evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanscholo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No Sith arent Evil. Evil is a construct of churches, it doest exist in the real world or in SW. The Sith are merely completely self obsessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozybidaj Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The sith do not operate off of positive emotions - True The dark side is inherently evil and negative - True The dark side powers are fueled by negative emotions - True Star Wars has clearly defined good and evil - True The jedi don't seek to become emotionless - True The jedi still experience positive emotions - True Dark jedi and light sith - the product of bad writers who don't understand the very basic concepts that Star Wars and the force are built upon. All of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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