Pyro Powertechs OP?

[Greennunu]

There is a huge difference in a Pyro PT and a Pyro merc. 60% Armor Pen difference. Mercs only get 30% ArmPen not 60% (Unless I mis read the talent tree). Also depending on your playstyle, Pyro PT tree basically keeps the dot on the target with a 100% up time for your RS if that's how you want to spec.

 

The better Pyro though tend to stay with a more defensive build, some even sacrafice a bit of rail damage. In the end, I'd fight Pyro Merc over a Pyro PT anyday.

[SeanPoe]

show me some evidence of this 9k hit then i will believe you

 

 

Here you go. Enjoy. I never said 9k in a single hit, i said 'instantaneously' (ie, thermal detonator going off at the same time railshot hits, 4500 crit each).

 

Also, i have a friend that i play with that runs around doing this. His biggest crit in a warzone since the 50 bracket was added is 5100 railshot and 5800 thermal detonator (combined that nearly 'one-shots' a fresh 50). His railshot's crit BM geared players for about 3900, and ~4200 with adrenals up. Now imagine him critting railshot's for 3900 on Bm geared players every other gcd if he get's lucky railshot cd-reset procs? No one can survive that rng burst, ever.

 

Please tell me how that's not OP?

Edited February 6, 2012 by SeanPoe

[toastmuffin]

One of the five chars i have is Pyrotech and i have to say its by far the most in your face - damage class and easy to kill enemies or top damage in warzones class.

 

The only reason i play sin atm over powertech (keeping it as backup) is that heat management is a ***** and i prefer sustained ability, over killing someone using all heat/cooldowns and than being useless. For a class with so much survivibility, the damage is way too much.

 

However seeing as they nerf hybrid sins, i expect Powertech to be forced to play in specific tree as well in the future, without cylinder changing in combat or talents from different trees working in wrong cylinder.

 

You appear in every NERF PT threads. LOL you must suck at PvP.

[Greennunu]

Still not 9k, but the people he is critting 3.7-4.1k against doesn't look like they are in much PvP gear.

[toastmuffin]

 

Here you go. Enjoy. I never said 9k in a single hit, i said 'instantaneously' (ie, thermal detonator going off at the same time railshot hits, 4500 crit each).

 

Also, i have a friend that i play with that runs around doing this. His biggest crit in a warzone is 5100 railshot crit. His railshot's crit BM geared players for about 3900, and ~4200 with adrenals up.

 

Please tell me how that's not OP?

 

Railshot CRIT at 4k. Nothing to see here 31pt TALENT.

 

 

Here's a tip, use dispell if you have a blinking red blob stuck on you. It detonates after 5secs.

[LordSemaj]

Yes Inc Missle allows you to shoot rail shot. Try it out..

 

Rail Shot

Instant

Heat: 16

Cooldown: 15s

Range: 30 m

Fires a very powerful shot at the target that deals 1404 - 1591 weapon damage. Only usable against incapacitated targets and targets suffering from periodic damage.

Read the post you quoted again... Rail Shot has a 15 second cooldown, the poster said Inc Missile does not reset this cooldown. Therefore, a Pyrotech cannot sit at range spamming Rail Shots. He must get in 10m or 4m range to actually use Flame Burst/Rocket Punch in order to reset the CD on Rail Shot.

 

Without reseting the CD on Rail Shot, the spec does laughable damage.

 

 

doesnt the 4pc PT pvp set give a bonus to railshot crit tho?

No. That's the 4pc Merc pvp set. The 4pc PT pvp set gives a bonus to Rocket Punch crit.

 

Again with the bloody myths from people who don't know the game.

 

PTs are free to wear the Merc set instead, but they'll gain a useless 2pc advantage and lose out on the longer stun + reduction on CC break you get from the PT set 2pc bonus.

[DarthFryze]

No. That's the 4pc Merc pvp set. The 4pc PT pvp set gives a bonus to Rocket Punch crit.

 

Again with the bloody myths from people who don't know the game.

 

PTs are free to wear the Merc set instead, but they'll gain a useless 2pc advantage and lose out on the longer stun + reduction on CC break you get from the PT set 2pc bonus.

 

hey thats why I asked. I wasnt certain, as I dont have my powertech at 50 yet and i find BH 50 pvp gear to be hideous

[SeanPoe]

Railshot CRIT at 4k. Nothing to see here 31pt TALENT.

 

 

Here's a tip, use dispell if you have a blinking red blob stuck on you. It detonates after 5secs.

 

You can't dispel it. Just like you can't dispel the other grenade either. You can dispel the dot from incendiary missle, but that does bad damage anyways and the only reason to dispel it is to stop the railshot spam because they lose the dot. But they can railshot off other people's dot's anyways, so it hardly hurts their damage in team play, only 1v1.

 

Also, railshot is not talented, it's baseline. Thermal detonator is what's broken here anyways, not railshot. The fact you can have it explode for 4500 right as a 4500 railshot hits is broken and WAY too much burst.

Edited February 6, 2012 by SeanPoe

[Libertine]

PTs are free to wear the Merc set instead, but they'll gain a useless 2pc advantage and lose out on the longer stun + reduction on CC break you get from the PT set 2pc bonus.

 

as of right now the 2 piece bonus is worthless and actually breaks carbonize so it wont work 80% of the time...

i have both sets but right now im using the merc set and will continue to do so until they fix the 2 piece carbonize bug.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqDt5sukQMY

[Jabbb]

So a few things people are spouting that needs to be corrected:

 

 

Merc Pyros and PT pyros are NOT AT ALL ALIKE. The pyro trees actually have different talents in them based on the fact that PT uses flame burst and merc does not. PT pyro is practically melee it requires at least 10 meters or closer to be at all affective and 4m to be totally affective, it does not have any gap closer other than grapple. Merc pyrotech is totally ranged using ranged abilities to proc railshot in conjunction with incendiary and thermal detonator.

 

 

Pure pyro PTs are NOT defensively inclined. They are one of the squishiest classes. "LOLWUT" "Yes, What." Heavy armour does not make a big difference it's only 30% absorption on some abilities, PyroTs don't have a shield and have the *******st defensive cooldowns in the game. a 25% dmg reduction for 12 seconds and a heal that does 120 hp a second for 10 seconds. Compare to:

 

 

Marauder: Easily as high damage as a PT has a 4 second 99% immunity and a complete invis, both instant cast, combine a healer with a Marauder and he'll have a much easier time keeping the marauder up

 

Sorc: Knockback, root, snare, force sprint, bubble, whirlwind, healing attacks. Oh no light armour, only 10% reduction instead of 30 on some abilities, if only they had *********** every card in the book to protect/get out of situations

 

Jugg dps: I don't know the specifics but I do know that killing a DPS jugg is way *********** harder than a pyro PT, no contest

 

Sniper: In cover they are unapproachable from a distance and from a ledge, they have 2 knockbacks an incapacitate and a stun, well played snipers are in a good place if they have a nice setup

 

merc: Everything a PT has and a knockback and self heals

 

So no PTs are not defensive, they are Glass Cannons, real glass canons not like sorcs claim to be.

 

 

Pyrotechs do not have strong burst, railshot does not proc off of incendiary, railshot procs off of flameburst which does 900 dmg and rocket punch which does 1500 dmg, having a 30% and 45% chance respectively of giving a railshot. Railshots do at most 4k in full BM against a squishy opponent, Thermal does at most 3.5k. Thermal followed by railshot if they both crit which is very unlikely is only 7.5k in full BM against a terribly geared enemy. Their next move is probably flame burst for a whopping 900 dmg, or rocket punch if they're in melee for a whopping 1500 dmg. Statistically it takes 2 flamebursts to have a 50% chance of proccing a free railshot, on average it takes 6 or 7 seconds between railshots, it's basically very RNG based, for every wtfhappened moment theres 3 **** im not getting any procs moments.

 

 

PT has very little control, they have no CC, no roots, no jumps, no knockbacks, no movement speed increasers, they have the 4 second stun that everyone gets and a 2.5 second stun. That's it, they are a fairly well balanced class with weaknesses (snipers in cover, ranged in general) and strengths (vs melee who they don't mind being toe to toe with but who they can hit from a far as well)

 

 

 

In conclusion, Nerf sorcerers =P

[toastmuffin]

You can't dispel it. Just like you can't dispel the other grenade either. You can dispel the dot from incendiary missle, but that does bad damage anyways and the only reason to dispel it is to stop the railshot spam because they lose the dot. But they can railshot off other people's dot's anyways, so it hardly hurts their damage in team play, only 1v1.

 

Also, railshot is not talented, it's baseline. Thermal detonator is what's broken here anyways, not railshot. The fact you can have it explode for 4500 right as a 4500 railshot hits is broken and WAY too much burst.

 

Sorry, i meant TD as 31pt.

[SeanPoe]

I agree with you Jabbb except for one point: Powertech Pyros have insanely high burst every 15 seconds with a thermal detonator --> railshot --> rocket punch combo, if they get a proc off that rocket punch, then the person is probably dead or extremely close to dieing from the next railshot if they don't get healed or if they don't have a defensive cd rolling.

 

It's probably the highest burst in the game second only to guardian/juggernauts (and that doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed, both smash and thermal detonator need to be toned down).

 

The fix is easy, transfer 50% of the damage thermal detonator does into a undispelable physical bleed, call it shrapnel bleeding or something. So instead of 4500 upfront it does 2250 upfront and 2250 over 6 seconds. This is both a nerf and a buff. It would be a nerf by reducing the class' burst, but a buff by giving them one more dot that they can railshot off of that can't be dispeled. This would make the class perfectly fine in my book. It would actually make it the most balanced spec in the game.

Edited February 6, 2012 by SeanPoe

[Greennunu]

I can't agree that Pyrotech has a crappy survival, not the best but far from the worst. I find keeping IGC up and not speccing into the auto Combustable Cylinder helps greatly. Only difference is you have to reapply the dot manual via IM. 50% armor and 5% mitigation against everything is too good to pass up.

[SeanPoe]

I can't agree that Pyrotech has a crappy survival, not the best but far from the worst. I find keeping IGC up and not speccing into the auto Combustible Cylinder helps greatly. Only difference is you have to reapply the dot manual via IM. 50% armor and 5% mitigation against everything is too good to pass up.

 

Or go with a 7/3/31 spec so you get the Ion overload dot from IGC procs and from Rocket Punch. That's the first or second most survivable spec in the game with the same ridiculous burst Combustible Cylinder pyro's have. The trade-off is you lose sustained damage. It actually has better survivability than a pure shield spec because of the high-end defensive talents in Pyro.

Edited February 6, 2012 by SeanPoe

[Greennunu]

Or go with a 7/3/31 spec so you get the Ion overload dot from IGC procs and from Rocket Punch. That's the first or second most survivable spec in the game with the same ridiculous burst Combustible Cylinder pyro's have. The trade-off is you lose sustained damage. It actually has better survivability than a pure shield spec because of the high-end defensive talents in Pyro.

 

I do 5/5/31 after many people made fun of my 9/7/25 build. I see their point I have my doubts still but I am having more success when I have to 1v1 someone. It's beside the point, to me in PvP IGC will always be better than CGC. The survival trade off, even when not spec'ed into the shield tech tree is too great to give up.

[cymboll]

Pyro is awesome. Use IGC instead of CGC. I have great burst, good sustained dps, and good survivability.

 

No getaways, but you can just mow people down and force them to run instead.

[Kromzor]

I agree with you Jabbb except for one point: Powertech Pyros have insanely high burst every 15 seconds with a thermal detonator --> railshot --> rocket punch combo, if they get a proc off that rocket punch, then the person is probably dead or extremely close to dieing from the next railshot if they don't get healed or if they don't have a defensive cd rolling.

 

LOL just admit you were exaggerating. Since you've just gone from 2 moves = massive burst, to OK OK, 4 moves with a lucky proc thrown in at the end THEN ITS OP!

 

Even after the nerf Ops still have more burst and they have better OH SHI buttons to stay alive with.

 

And the 90% Amr Pen is only noticeable against tank spec'd tanks.... and its not like other classes don't have moves that ignore 50-100% armor either.

 

Besides, what happens if the person with the TD dies/vanishes/gets out of LOS/leaps-pulled-sprints out of range/you get CC'd/you get knocked out of LOS or range... etc etc.... then nothing. You see a TD go off in the distance for 2.5-3k. Big whoop.

[Kromzor]

Or go with a 7/3/31 spec so you get the Ion overload dot from IGC procs and from Rocket Punch. That's the first or second most survivable spec in the game with the same ridiculous burst Combustible Cylinder pyro's have. The trade-off is you lose sustained damage. It actually has better survivability than a pure shield spec because of the high-end defensive talents in Pyro.

 

What??!

 

No one ever listen to this guy.

 

Using Ion over Combust is just stooooopid.

 

You've got to just be trolling at this point.

[Greennunu]

ummm... How is using Ion over Combust stupid?

 

I'm not being trolled am I?

[fest]

I agree with you Jabbb except for one point: Powertech Pyros have insanely high burst every 15 seconds with a thermal detonator --> railshot --> rocket punch combo, if they get a proc off that rocket punch, then the person is probably dead or extremely close to dieing from the next railshot if they don't get healed or if they don't have a defensive cd rolling.

 

It's probably the highest burst in the game second only to guardian/juggernauts (and that doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed, both smash and thermal detonator need to be toned down).

 

The fix is easy, transfer 50% of the damage thermal detonator does into a undispelable physical bleed, call it shrapnel bleeding or something. So instead of 4500 upfront it does 2250 upfront and 2250 over 6 seconds. This is both a nerf and a buff. It would be a nerf by reducing the class' burst, but a buff by giving them one more dot that they can railshot off of that can't be dispeled. This would make the class perfectly fine in my book. It would actually make it the most balanced spec in the game.

 

Even without TD their burst is insanely high. Railshot > Rocket Punch > Railshot > Flame Burst > Railshot is easily 12k damage, and that's not even mentioning the DoT from the Cylinder which can crit for 700. Sure, this requires an incredibly small amount of luck, but when it comes to balancing PvP, potential should be all that really matters.

[Libertine]

ummm... How is using Ion over Combust stupid?

 

I'm not being trolled am I?

 

just switching from Combustible Gas to Ion isnt gonna do any good.

 

you have to equipe Shield Gen instead of Power Gen > You gimp your DPS

In order to have any decent amount of shield % you need Tank Gear > You gimp your DPS

To gain any substantial benefit from actually using Ion you need to spend a good amount of Talent Points in ST Tree > You gimp your DPS

 

essentially using Ion Gas and all that comes with it over DPS is trading a lot of DPS for a little survivability. If you claim 31pt. Pyro spec gets good survivability just by switching to Ion you dont really have a clue what youre talking about.

 

Pyro is squishy and HAS TO BE squishy, its a glass cannon.

[Libertine]

Even without TD their burst is insanely high. Railshot > Rocket Punch > Railshot > Flame Burst > Railshot is easily 12k damage, and that's not even mentioning the DoT from the Cylinder which can crit for 700. Sure, this requires an incredibly small amount of luck, but when it comes to balancing PvP, potential should be all that really matters.

 

Small ammount of luck ?

 

you are aware the chance for Rocket Punch or Flameburst to reset Railshot is only 30% & 45% right ?

 

so to actually pull off what you described RS > RP > RS > FB > RS you need insane luck.

 

now what you can pull off on a regular basis(and by regular i mean every 2-3min.) without luck is this:

 

Explosive Fuels

Adrenal

Relic

Incendiary Missile

TD

Railshot

Rocket Punch & Flameburst if youre in range.

 

that will amount to roughly 10-12k damage but you just burned 3 cooldowns and generated a lot of heat.

[longgrassgrows]

apparently everything is OP

[Jabbb]

Even without TD their burst is insanely high. Railshot > Rocket Punch > Railshot > Flame Burst > Railshot is easily 12k damage, and that's not even mentioning the DoT from the Cylinder which can crit for 700. Sure, this requires an incredibly small amount of luck, but when it comes to balancing PvP, potential should be all that really matters.

 

The statistical odds of being able to perform the combo you suggested are 15% This is not an on demand capability, just as critting is not an on demand capability.

 

without crits such a combo would perform

 

1600 1200 1700 800 1700, or 7k dmg

 

with full crits such a combo would perform

 

13k dmg

 

The odds of critting on every railshot is 12%

 

this would make you deal 12k dmg with this combo

 

The odds of dealing 12k with this combo are less than 2%

 

Thanks for playing but any class that has a top 2% positive outcome event will win a fight, that's called luck and every class has it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Jabbb

[Delekii]

just switching from Combustible Gas to Ion isnt gonna do any good.

 

you have to equipe Shield Gen instead of Power Gen > You gimp your DPS

In order to have any decent amount of shield % you need Tank Gear > You gimp your DPS

To gain any substantial benefit from actually using Ion you need to spend a good amount of Talent Points in ST Tree > You gimp your DPS

 

essentially using Ion Gas and all that comes with it over DPS is trading a lot of DPS for a little survivability. If you claim 31pt. Pyro spec gets good survivability just by switching to Ion you dont really have a clue what youre talking about.

 

Pyro is squishy and HAS TO BE squishy, its a glass cannon.

Completely, absolutely back to front.

 

Switching from Combustible to Ion is the single biggest survivability increase you can get, it offers you significant mitigation to physical damage, as well as a significant 5% pure damage reduction straight up to all damage.

 

On the other hand, shield is hugely broken in PvP, and doesn't mitigate the vast majority of damage from any class but a sniper. The same is true of defense. Shield and defense only work vs. damage that shows up as white on the floating combat text, which for many classes is just auto attack, and not even that for casters (since they don't really have an autoattack that they use).

 

 

Here is a hugely indepth thread about the shear uselessness of defense stats in PvP.

 

The value of Ion Cylinder there probably isn't a thread for, but you can think for yourself on that one - you gain 5% damage reduction on all damage, ~10-15% damage reduction on physical damage, and guards, and you lose a meager dot. The biggest loss is the abilities that work off that dot, but they are easy to sidestep.

 

 

TL;DR: Shield/defense are extremely weak in PvP, while tank stance is extremely good value for little loss.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Delekii