WHY Engame failed so far in PvE and PvP for me...

[HansoSoloo]

I´m not a native speaker so excuse my grammar etc...

 

I´ve been playing MMOs and Computer Games in generals since 16years now and would say i play regulary computer games and specially MMORPGS at the evening and got some MMO experience as i played WoW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer Online, LotrO, EvE Online to be named as the most pupular ones and many more...

(Playing a 50 Assassin DD and a 50 Imperial Agent Heal, i did level in close Beta to 50 so I skipped most of the cut scenes in the Live version of the game)

Short note: I don´t expected SWTOR to be the WoW 2.0 or something.

 

Summary why SW:TOR failed for me to this point in time on the endgame content.

 

PvE

1. All Operations and Hardmode Flashpoints were buggy from ship to begin with and some encounter still are /hi@ soa

2. If u didn´t wipe on a BUG, you killed nearly every PvE Encounter on normal/hard AND nightmare Mode within a few tries - so it takes you zero time to clear all the content there is with an mimimum amount of "skill" and "time"

3. No Tools for raid ppl, u can´t compare classes in an classic style (since BW removed the combatlogs from beta times), no Target of Target, no where u would see how high you are in the agro list of a boss etc

4. Boss mechanics are all the same on all 3 modes in operations, they get more hp, do a bit more DMG and spawn f.e. adds with more hp, damage. THATS ALL. No new mechanics nothing to wonder about = no fun.

5. Professions are useless - only BioChem matters as it is now for raiding and pvp (i read they are working alreay on that problem - simply fix they will nerf biochem again instead of doing something usefull with other professions)

 

Sure u can say, "u don´t need tools for raiding and as it is now - u really don´t need them because the content there is, is to EASY. Fair enough.

But what about the future? Next content will be 1.2 with a new Operation, will it be the same, first week it comes out you´ll clear it in all modes.

-Is that fun on an longterm basis? I ask the community.

 

PvP

1. Three really small Bg´s 8v8, the engine or the netcode can´t handle Huttball without lags on and 8vs8 fight!! + Ilum open PvP u will get with an high end rig about 15Fps at MAX.

 

= No fun to play open PvP, no fun to play small BGs with those "lags" either.

(ref: ability delay, cds not rdy topics on the pvp forum)

 

2. How to EQUIP in PvP? With pure luck or a grindfest for the Tier1 set. About that topic there are 1000 of topics in the forum so i don´t want to be specific here.

 

After you reach Battlemaster its again ONLY luck based chance of 25% to get a token now in each bag, which u can obtain 2 bags a day from dailies - thats it. No other way to get those Battlemaster tokens only two dailies and 2 weekly quest which each give u 1 bag.

I had for example 4 days in a row with 2 dailies a day 0 battlmaster tokens in them = bad luck = no fun/progression on the character because of the RNG mechanic the bags work.

 

3. No challenge - most classes are broken as they are now + the CC immune buff doens´t work at all. Best example - You get CCed in the fire of Huttball - now u use a CC breaker and you will get insta CCed again and u DIE (cc = crowd control).

 

Snother example. U get CCed, wait wait wait, (ok i should be immune now) move a bit again full time cced. I don´t know how this should be a fun mechanic at all. U get more "kicked" "pulled" "slowed" or "cced" all the time as u could actual play in a bg.

 

U don´t believe me? Try it yourself in a BG f.e. Huttball.

And then sometimes when 5 ppl try to cc you, you will get immune after the 3rd cc where u are normally dead without a healer backing you up.

 

4. No Rated Bgs (will be implemented in 1.2 together with a new BG)

YES not a big problem, i hope they do crossrealm BGs, because the que times on a normal populated server would be hours for a rated 50 BG.

 

5. BG Size

8v8? A bit small, doenst feel like an MMO either. I hope for 16vs16 / 24vs24 or even 30vs30 on a bigger map.

U can only que with 4 PPL - thats no fun at all - no mmo feeling, atleast with 8-16player you should be able to q later for the battlegrounds.

If u don´t que with 4 as it is now, u will loose 70-80% of your Bg´s because u play against 4 man teams all the time

Healing in Endgame:

Good mechanics on the Imperial Agent side - makes fun to play - does need some skill to keep the energy over 70% or 50/60%-70% with active stimpack.

 

Now the downside

- U got 0 BIG cd´s which could prevent a wipe in PvE or a death from a player in in PvP.

Once some one drops low on health - u can do a big heal, aoe heal or medi fast heal, really small intsant heal with tactical advantage active - thats it. 4 Buttons. (the 5th is a HoT which stacks 2 times on a target + 6th a channeld scan which crithheals for 385 per tick if it crits..., thats the only ability which doesn´t cost energy and can be spammed to regain some energy faster)

 

Compared to other games say (f.e. because the most of u played WoW i guess) u got NO Pain sup, no Bubble, no Freedom, no Lay on Hands etc... i hope u get what i mean - those are all Heals or Spells which could prevent the tank from dying in an PvE environment.

 

U needed some skill to A. time the cd´s with other players or B. use them in the right situation as u pleased.

Where are such amazing mechanics for healers in SW:TOR? Check the other Heal classes.. i could´t find any. Only the BH as 10% more armor on the target when he is healing as passive abilty - nothing ON use.

 

What i want to point out - sure healing is fun to a point but u got no "progression" after it.

 

Summary: I know many of u guys didn´t hit 50 till march or so, so u won´t experience the problems the game has now. But i don´t see any changes they plan for Operations or Class designs at all, so it concerns me that the game will stay that "boring" and "easy" for a long time.

 

I subbed till March and will then decide depending on the new operation and rated bgs if this game has something that I wanna play it in the long term - again i don´t expected SWTOR to be f.e. a WoW 2.0 from the beginning or anything similar - i only expected it to be a bit more challenging and with better pvp :-(

 

So how much longterm motivation do u got to play this game as it is now?

Edited February 5, 2012 by HansoSoloo

[Liquidacid]

no .

[iloveicarly]

remember,you need lore to represent your key statements.*pig snort

[jaabber]

[Strina]

First of all, that wall of text was a big tl;dr for me.

Second, endgame didn't fail. Farming hardmodes and progressing in nightmare. Warzones are a bit dull for me, but I was never big fan of PvP in any mmorpg.

 

Cheers

[Voqar]

PvE - reward doesn't match effort involved - long instances, short enrages, crap loot, lockouts.

 

PvP - reward doesn't match lack of effort involved - no lockouts, no minimum gear to participate, rewarded for losing, not trying, not knowing how to play, lots of ways to exploit for even more easy rewards, ridiculously fast and easy to get artifacts from head to toe.

 

In this game, PvPers are coddles like little babies...or like carebears, I guess you could say.

[Zandragal]

1. This game launched with Warzones, valor gain, PvP gear progression AND a WZ finder tool for solo + group. Rated Warzone system is coming very tightly after launch.

 

 

2. This game launched with fully voice-acted and interactive Flashpoints that provided not only a cool, group oriented alternative to leveling and gear, but useful and entertaining enhancements to the general storyline. It of course also includes 8 and 16 man Operations which serve much the same purpose, and though I've read tons of knuckleheads whining about it on these forums, the people I know ACTUALLY doing the content enjoy it / think its fine.

 

3. This game launched with facilitated open-world PvP, commendation chests, daily quests, and various open world battlegrounds for people to participate in, compete for and enjoy.

 

 

Now. . . argue that these are broken, buggy, unfun. Do whatever you want. It will pan out. They will patch. People will learn to use the many tools they are given, when they become more usable.

 

My point is. . .

 

1. WoW launched without an Honor system or Battlegrounds. That took them about a year.

 

2. One of WoW's most interactive dungeons, at launch. . Deadmine's (cuz I got to blow up a door with a cannon by clicking on it). Raids? Gogo Scholomance.

 

3. Open world PvP? Existed because people chose to get up, go find it, and kill people for the sheer sake of killing them. No points. No rewards. No quests. No defined objectives. No incentive.

 

 

 

If you think the open-world PvP needs work: the playerbase is more responsible for this part of the game than anyone else

 

If you think the Operations and Flashpoints need work: go back to games like Darkfall or EvE, which are great, but have not even made the ATTEMPT to legitimately contribute to story, setting, or character - and furthermore, fail to even rise above the level of brainless [insert text] grindfests.

 

 

If you think PvP Warzones need work: be glad you have them. Most games don't, or don't have them at launch. Give it a few weeks ~ months to resolve some of the more annoying bugs, such as door clipping / spawn lockout on Voidstar, and you will be at or above par with any other MMO out there

Edited February 5, 2012 by Zandragal

[Jett-Rinn]

I don't think End game failed I am enjoying it immensely.

[HansoSoloo]

"3. This game launched with facilitated open-world PvP, commendation chests, daily quests, and various open world battlegrounds for people to participate in, compete for and enjoy."

 

the chest from tattoine got removed, then implemnted in a nerfed version again.. besides no one is in tattoine for them anyways anymore becaucse they removed the high end crafting mats from the pvp area,

 

open world bgs? its only ilum and its SOOOO big u have to drive 5 minutes to the other side and u got only zerg vs zerg in an 15fps game or 1vs 10 when u are not in an zerg.

 

I see more ppl in the middle duelling factions intern for the armaments as they search for enemys on ilum ;(

[Demoz]

Guess what WOW LAUNCHED 8~ years ago, comparing the 2 launches doesnt make sense stop being a fanboy, everybody knows that this game is buggy as hell and the optimization is bad as hell too.

 

Now go and look at guild wars 2, TERA... LOOK AT IT! you see how much innovation they bring, if you don't then... lets face you're a fanboy that will support BW no matter what and you're bad for the games improvment

[HansoSoloo]

i hope really bioware works on some improvements

[RycheMykola]

Guess what WOW LAUNCHED 8~ years ago, comparing the 2 launches doesnt make sense stop being a fanboy, everybody knows that this game is buggy as hell and the optimization is bad as hell too.

 

Now go and look at guild wars 2, TERA... LOOK AT IT! you see how much innovation they bring, if you don't then... lets face you're a fanboy that will support BW no matter what and you're bad for the games improvment

Guild Wars 2 hasn't launched yet, how do you know they're bringing in so much innovation?

 

When it launches, then we'll see.

[SwampHobbit]

I don't think End game failed I am enjoying it immensely.

 

 

QFT ^^^

 

Now, I will contradict myself a bit. LAG!!! LAG!!! LAG!!!

 

That needs to be fixed. I was in an Alderaan WZ group yesterday and everything was smooth as silk til combat was engaged. I couldn't move. I couldn't do anything. I'm not running with a subpar system. On this system, I have run 12-24 man raids in LOTRO without so much as a hitch (pun intended). Until about a week ago, I had experienced nothing more than the annoying World Error 9000 problem.

 

They will get this worked out, but as of now I'm probably not going to PvP until I know I can at least be reliable. I don't want all of the know-it-alls telling me how much I suck because of some playabililty issues that Bioware will address.

 

There are a lot of really smart people here, know everything there is to know about MMO's and why the companies that invest millions of dollars bringing them to us, don't know what they're doing.

 

Just ask those experts, they have no problem telling you just how smart they are.

Edited February 6, 2012 by SwampHobbit

[mangarrage]

Guess what WOW LAUNCHED 8~ years ago, comparing the 2 launches doesnt make sense stop being a fanboy, everybody knows that this game is buggy as hell and the optimization is bad as hell too.

 

Now go and look at guild wars 2, TERA... LOOK AT IT! you see how much innovation they bring, if you don't then... lets face you're a fanboy that will support BW no matter what and you're bad for the games improvment

 

Well we'll see with GW2 as I'm sure alot of people will try it cause its free but I predict that to be like a 3m wonder at best

 

Tera looks like a cartoonish AoC so yea

[HansoSoloo]

Well i didn´t try to compare it, i tried to point out the flaws this game has currently - still hoping BW will FIX atleast some of them - if not it will be like Warhammer, Aion etc.. 3-6Month healty pop, after it - drops down and goes F2P/P2P Mode after 1year ish Edited February 8, 2012 by HansoSoloo

[Samborino]

I´m not a native speaker so excuse my grammar etc...

 

I´ve been playing MMOs and Computer Games in generals since 16years now and would say i play regulary computer games and specially MMORPGS at the evening and got some MMO experience as i played WoW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer Online, LotrO, EvE Online to be named as the most pupular ones and many more...

(Playing a 50 Assassin DD and a 50 Imperial Agent Heal, i did level in close Beta to 50 so I skipped most of the cut scenes in the Live version of the game)

Short note: I don´t expected SWTOR to be the WoW 2.0 or something.

 

Summary why SW:TOR failed for me to this point in time on the endgame content.

 

PvE

1. All Operations and Hardmode Flashpoints were buggy from ship to begin with and some encounter still are /hi@ soa

2. If u didn´t wipe on a BUG, you killed nearly every PvE Encounter on normal/hard AND nightmare Mode within a few tries - so it takes you zero time to clear all the content there is with an mimimum amount of "skill" and "time"

3. No Tools for raid ppl, u can´t compare classes in an classic style (since BW removed the combatlogs from beta times), no Target of Target, no where u would see how high you are in the agro list of a boss etc

4. Boss mechanics are all the same on all 3 modes in operations, they get more hp, do a bit more DMG and spawn f.e. adds with more hp, damage. THATS ALL. No new mechanics nothing to wonder about = no fun.

5. Professions are useless - only BioChem matters as it is now for raiding and pvp (i read they are working alreay on that problem - simply fix they will nerf biochem again instead of doing something usefull with other professions)

 

Sure u can say, "u don´t need tools for raiding and as it is now - u really don´t need them because the content there is, is to EASY. Fair enough.

But what about the future? Next content will be 1.2 with a new Operation, will it be the same, first week it comes out you´ll clear it in all modes.

-Is that fun on an longterm basis? I ask the community.

 

PvP

1. Three really small Bg´s 8v8, the engine or the netcode can´t handle Huttball without lags on and 8vs8 fight!! + Ilum open PvP u will get with an high end rig about 15Fps at MAX.

 

= No fun to play open PvP, no fun to play small BGs with those "lags" either.

(ref: ability delay, cds not rdy topics on the pvp forum)

 

2. How to EQUIP in PvP? With pure luck or a grindfest for the Tier1 set. About that topic there are 1000 of topics in the forum so i don´t want to be specific here.

 

After you reach Battlemaster its again ONLY luck based chance of 25% to get a token now in each bag, which u can obtain 2 bags a day from dailies - thats it. No other way to get those Battlemaster tokens only two dailies and 2 weekly quest which each give u 1 bag.

I had for example 4 days in a row with 2 dailies a day 0 battlmaster tokens in them = bad luck = no fun/progression on the character because of the RNG mechanic the bags work.

 

3. No challenge - most classes are broken as they are now + the CC immune buff doens´t work at all. Best example - You get CCed in the fire of Huttball - now u use a CC breaker and you will get insta CCed again and u DIE (cc = crowd control).

 

Snother example. U get CCed, wait wait wait, (ok i should be immune now) move a bit again full time cced. I don´t know how this should be a fun mechanic at all. U get more "kicked" "pulled" "slowed" or "cced" all the time as u could actual play in a bg.

 

U don´t believe me? Try it yourself in a BG f.e. Huttball.

And then sometimes when 5 ppl try to cc you, you will get immune after the 3rd cc where u are normally dead without a healer backing you up.

 

4. No Rated Bgs (will be implemented in 1.2 together with a new BG)

YES not a big problem, i hope they do crossrealm BGs, because the que times on a normal populated server would be hours for a rated 50 BG.

 

5. BG Size

8v8? A bit small, doenst feel like an MMO either. I hope for 16vs16 / 24vs24 or even 30vs30 on a bigger map.

U can only que with 4 PPL - thats no fun at all - no mmo feeling, atleast with 8-16player you should be able to q later for the battlegrounds.

If u don´t que with 4 as it is now, u will loose 70-80% of your Bg´s because u play against 4 man teams all the time

Healing in Endgame:

Good mechanics on the Imperial Agent side - makes fun to play - does need some skill to keep the energy over 70% or 50/60%-70% with active stimpack.

 

Now the downside

- U got 0 BIG cd´s which could prevent a wipe in PvE or a death from a player in in PvP.

Once some one drops low on health - u can do a big heal, aoe heal or medi fast heal, really small intsant heal with tactical advantage active - thats it. 4 Buttons. (the 5th is a HoT which stacks 2 times on a target + 6th a channeld scan which crithheals for 385 per tick if it crits..., thats the only ability which doesn´t cost energy and can be spammed to regain some energy faster)

 

Compared to other games say (f.e. because the most of u played WoW i guess) u got NO Pain sup, no Bubble, no Freedom, no Lay on Hands etc... i hope u get what i mean - those are all Heals or Spells which could prevent the tank from dying in an PvE environment.

 

U needed some skill to A. time the cd´s with other players or B. use them in the right situation as u pleased.

Where are such amazing mechanics for healers in SW:TOR? Check the other Heal classes.. i could´t find any. Only the BH as 10% more armor on the target when he is healing as passive abilty - nothing ON use.

 

What i want to point out - sure healing is fun to a point but u got no "progression" after it.

 

Summary: I know many of u guys didn´t hit 50 till march or so, so u won´t experience the problems the game has now. But i don´t see any changes they plan for Operations or Class designs at all, so it concerns me that the game will stay that "boring" and "easy" for a long time.

 

I subbed till March and will then decide depending on the new operation and rated bgs if this game has something that I wanna play it in the long term - again i don´t expected SWTOR to be f.e. a WoW 2.0 from the beginning or anything similar - i only expected it to be a bit more challenging and with better pvp :-(

 

So how much longterm motivation do u got to play this game as it is now?

 

For PVE that is the point im getting at as well, not to mention for the current raids all the gear is rehashed from commendations, Hardmode FP's , 8 and 16 mans have the exact same gear. Hard modes have some of the same gear as normal modes and FP's as well. And they give out gear wayyy to freely. How is anyone supposed to raid long term when you can clear a raid the first time your guild goes there with only maybe 3 or 4 wipes (what my guild did with EV, no im not saying that is impressive or anything it really wasnt) If the raids where still as easy as they are but they had way more gear and rare drops people would still be entertained by them as they had something to work for.

 

But when you get 4 pieces drop in an 8 man for every boss that is just ridiculous. How many pieces dropped in a 10 man in wow 2? I never once felt like wow was being skimpy on the gear just to prolong their content either, that never crossed my mind , it seemed fine.

 

I dont want to go back to wow or anything i love this game , but end game raiding is far to easy and has rehashed gear from other end game content in every single aspect of it except for 1 set which is rakata gear. So the only option for us players is to all look pretty much the exact same with the best gear on. Sure you can take mods out i guess but thats just lazy of them to expect us to do that and still make as little gear as they do.

 

I want gear variety for end game content, it was great during the leveling up process, but why in the hell wouldnt you add that same variety for the most important part of the game (or at least it will be the most important in the coming months after everyone has leveled up a character or 3)

 

The next raid better not rehash rakata gear inthe 8 mans and only have 1 or 2 sets besides the new tier gear. Why does all gear have to be apart of a set in this game, the other sets right now (that dont have bonus's) are xenotech, energized and one more forgot the name. their needs to be gear that doesnt fall into a set category like best in slot pieces that arent part of sets should drop in nightmare or hard modes it would give ppl a chance to diversify their gear so not everyone looked the exact same, at least have a few pieces different beyond their set bonus's. I always found it fun in other games making the decision whether it was worth it to keep my set bonus or go with a better item that wasnt part of any set.

 

I just realized the lack of gear the other day after my second weak through hard modes and it started to get to me. It isnt that hard to add gear to a game come on.

[Deathnasty]

PvE - reward doesn't match effort involved - long instances, short enrages, crap loot, lockouts.

 

PvP - reward doesn't match lack of effort involved - no lockouts, no minimum gear to participate, rewarded for losing, not trying, not knowing how to play, lots of ways to exploit for even more easy rewards, ridiculously fast and easy to get artifacts from head to toe.

 

In this game, PvPers are coddles like little babies...or like carebears, I guess you could say.

 

 

Err what? it takes less time to run an op than it takes to kill the trash in Koan

 

We clear EV in 1.5 hours, i know a lot of people that do it faster, kraggas is the same

[Samborino]

Err what? it takes less time to run an op than it takes to kill the trash in Koan

 

We clear EV in 1.5 hours, i know a lot of people that do it faster, kraggas is the same

 

Agreed the operations are pathetically short =(. I love this game to death but i really hope they add more gear to the Ops to strengthen their longevity (because less people would be complaining even with how easy it is if they still needed loot from these places , like for instance if nightmare mode actually dropped its own loot or if 16 mans dropped different loot than 8 mans)

 

Ive never played an mmo where raiding was so easy though, we wiped three ish times in our first night through Eternity Vault we wiped zero times on the first 2 bosses in KP that same night.

 

They need to increase the length or number of bosses and make normal modes even a challenge so that no one is clearing it in their first week , the way raids are supposed to work (at least in my mind) is that you get geared through whatever means are available before raiding (dungeons or whatever) then you go to said raid or operation and you may clear 1 or 2 bosses then you hit a wall because your raid isnt geared enough, and they wont be until you have those first 2 bosses on farm and enough people in your raid get geared enough / get the experience to kill the third boss. Raids should be gear checks + skill and they probably are gear checks in the old republic the problem is that its just way to easy to get gear so its hard to even tell.

[UA_Wookie]

If you think PvP Warzones need work: be glad you have them. Most games don't, or don't have them at launch. Give it a few weeks ~ months to resolve some of the more annoying bugs, such as door clipping / spawn lockout on Voidstar, and you will be at or above par with any other MMO out there

 

And what will they do to make them, you know, fun?