The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Tumri]

^ Most of your points seem to either agree with me honestly. The talents that I'm saying should stay out of the hands of hybrids are the exact same talents you're saying nobody should take. What I'm asking for is to have just those two talents moved up. I mentioned the others because I wanted to show all that a hybrid gets out of the lightning tree. The only overpowered thing I see about Sorcs/Sages is the easily accessible 5s immobilize on knockback and the 3s immobilize on a popped bubble.

 

The changes I'm requesting wouldn't effect a Sorcerer using a spec like yours in ANY way. I don't want to see the PvE spec nerfed. I want some of the utility talents of the extreme CC-heavy PvP build to be moved up so only full lightning Sorcerers have access to them.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Tumri

[Jebi]

Yeah, nerf sorcerers, this is just absurd...

 

 

Oh wait...

 

Luckily though the OP's own 'evidence' clearly shows that sorcerers need nerfs...

https://imgur.com/a/P3lM4#0

 

Oh wait...

 

lol, whatever. The sheep will eventually realize which is the true OP class in the game.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Jebi

[Fafryd]

This is the first thread I've read that spells out the 'problem' effectively which leads this class to be OP in PVP. Fair point.

[TrikkiOne]

Good post imo.

 

Sorcs/Sages are way OP in PVP.

 

Its just the most frustrating fight when you're knocked back, then rooted while lightning tears you up as you run towards them in slow motion. I'm often dead before I even get back to them a second time and that's with full PVP gear.

 

If I'm not dead, then I get stunned/or whatever that lightning spin thingee is and I'm dead shortly after, nothing I can do about it with 1 CC break on a 2 minute timer.

 

I think bubble is too strong too, does guard and other damage mitigation effects change the way it works? It just seems that sometimes I hit bubbles forever without knocking them off and other times they seem more reasonable.

 

As a Scoundrel with Defense Screen I can tell you they are a long way from each other in terms of power, what always seems 1 or max 2 hits shielded can be 5+ on a Sorc.

 

Their speed burst doesn't seem to work properly when I snare them too, almots like they're unaffected by it while the speed is up.

Edited February 12, 2012 by TrikkiOne

[justcallmetarzan]

^ Most of your points seem to either agree with me honestly. The talents that I'm saying should stay out of the hands of hybrids are the exact same talents you're saying nobody should take. What I'm asking for is to have just those two talents moved up. I mentioned the others because I wanted to show all that a hybrid gets out of the lightning tree. The only overpowered thing I see about Sorcs/Sages is the easily accessible 5s immobilize on knockback and the 3s immobilize on a popped bubble.

 

The changes I'm requesting wouldn't effect a Sorcerer using a spec like yours in ANY way. I don't want to see the PvE spec nerfed. I want some of the utility talents of the extreme CC-heavy PvP build to be moved up so only full lightning Sorcerers have access to them.

 

I think you misunderstand, the talents are available, but they reduce the damage output by increasing CC capability. It's not OP - it's just different utility. I actually use a 13/28 build for PvE as well, mainly because I like the ability to put out some really nasty aoe damage. I think if I had to choose, I'd go back 3/7/31 for PvE mostly for the extra crit and dot, and also because there's not really that much of a mobility difference.

 

I say that nobody should take the aoe cc talents because they suck and gimp your dps. Even if they are moved up the tree, they will still be a waste of points. I just want to hit this again:

 

The only overpowered thing I see about Sorcs/Sages is the easily accessible 5s immobilize on knockback and the 3s immobilize on a popped bubble.

 

The first of these is not OP in light of talents that other classes have. I'm thinking of, for example, the grapple and stun, as well as the aoe kickin' chicken talent. It's really not a big deal. If you are ranged, you can eat it and still hit them. If you are melee, you've already blown it and the sage will probably get away. This talent is largely useless on marauders because of their leap.

 

The second one of these is completely and utterly worthless. Why would anyone want a talent that speeds the rate at which virtually all enemy players become immune to CC? I LOVE being in WZ's where an enemy has that talent. We pop his bubble over and over and have CC immunity for most of the match.

[wwkingms]

As I told you, read his entire post and not just the thread title and his sig to draw your conclusions

 

IF he plays a sorc and says we're OP then i can draw one conclusion..

 

he doesnt play a sorc

 

 

all he did was LIST talents..

 

its all his opinion, which is bad

 

sorcs are great in group pvp when UNFOCUSED

 

working as intended

 

 

qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

Edited February 12, 2012 by wwkingms

[Varicite]

Look if it was as simple as you say to counter sorcerers post like these would barely exist. People do complain a lot, but there is an OVERWHELMING outcry about this issue. Also there would be a lot less of them in the game dominating the pvp boards. And matches would not come down to who brought the most sorcs/sages = win.

 

Your advice of telling melee forgo the initial closer and to just hide behind something...atrocious. That does nothing but render said melee useless (something which the OP already explained to you). And telling us we all just need to get the jump on them is just as lame.

 

BTW that bubble that goes down so easily? Yah it can withstand the full brunt of an operative's opener and you take very little to no dmg. Then he his out of dps for a lil while. In the meantime you are free to go to town on him.

 

Here is a newsflash for you Var and everyone with your mindset, most of the players on SWTOR are not "bad". This is a video game designed for ease of use and enjoyment so it's pretty hard to be bad at it. They simply play classes that appeal to them while you stick to classes that have obvious advantages, exploit them to their fullest abilities, and claim everything is hunky dory because everyone else just sucks.

 

Look i don't expect to change your mind, because obviously your skill is so legendary that you can somehow change developer built in game mechanics with it. But stop belitting the thousands of players out there by insisting they all suck and acting like their concerns are because of it. That's called emotional manipulation. It's the same thing men do to women when she says something feels wrong and he constantly dismisses her and says that no such problem exists.

 

Great post Tumri and keep up the good fight. Don't let guys like these get to you. You have brought up a very valid game play issue that needs addressing. I hope your request does not go unanswered.

 

Sneaking up on a caster while he's busy doesn't involve a legendary amount of skill. I play an AP/Pyro Powertech; I don't think there's a whole lot of people in the game that would say that my class/spec is either OP or that I'm exploiting in some way. I will die if you look at me funny. Yet, I do this all the time.

 

I have the advantage of having some ranged damage in my arsenal, which I do use to its fullest extent when possible, but if I want to kill a Sorc, I have to close to melee range just like everyone else.

 

I'm not emotionally manipulating anyone; I said that there is a defeatist mentality going around when dealing Sorcs at the moment because their toolbox can seem very daunting when you don't know all of their drawbacks.

 

I also said that the lack of a combat log directly contributes to feeling helpless, because the majority of players don't even have the first clue what they are getting hit by.

 

I simply disagree that Sorcs are OP as a hybrid, because the spec does have its limitations which people cannot seem to acknowledge. Once you understand these limitations and exploit them, then what seemed OP at first might not seem so anymore.

[wwkingms]

Good post imo.

 

Sorcs/Sages are way OP in PVP.

 

Its just the most frustrating fight when you're knocked back, then rooted while lightning tears you up as you run towards them in slow motion. I'm often dead before I even get back to them a second time and that's with full PVP gear.

 

If I'm not dead, then I get stunned/or whatever that lightning spin thingee is and I'm dead shortly after, nothing I can do about it with 1 CC break on a 2 minute timer.

 

I think bubble is too strong too, does guard and other damage mitigation effects change the way it works? It just seems that sometimes I hit bubbles forever without knocking them off and other times they seem more reasonable.

 

As a Scoundrel with Defense Screen I can tell you they are a long way from each other in terms of power, what always seems 1 or max 2 hits shielded can be 5+ on a Sorc.

 

Their speed burst doesn't seem to work properly when I snare them too, almots like they're unaffected by it while the speed is up.

 

5 + hits?

 

lol it absorbs ~3k dmg if u cant do 3k dmg in 5 hits then u need to cancel your sub immediately

 

 

 

 

im glad u agree tho with the OP, i can now add you to the list of UN-knowledgable people to never ever pay attention to

 

 

sorcs are fine

[Tumri]

Sneaking up on a caster while he's busy doesn't involve a legendary amount of skill. I play an AP/Pyro Powertech; I don't think there's a whole lot of people in the game that would say that my class/spec is either OP or that I'm exploiting in some way. I will die if you look at me funny. Yet, I do this all the time.

 

I have the advantage of having some ranged damage in my arsenal, which I do use to its fullest extent when possible, but if I want to kill a Sorc, I have to close to melee range just like everyone else.

 

I'm not emotionally manipulating anyone; I said that there is a defeatist mentality going around when dealing Sorcs at the moment because their toolbox can seem very daunting when you don't know all of their drawbacks.

 

I also said that the lack of a combat log directly contributes to feeling helpless, because the majority of players don't even have the first clue what they are getting hit by.

 

I simply disagree that Sorcs are OP as a hybrid, because the spec does have its limitations which people cannot seem to acknowledge. Once you understand these limitations and exploit them, then what seemed OP at first might not seem so anymore.

 

Powertechs can pull. It's not the same for other melee. We absolutely MUST fight on their ground or just get pelted by attacks.

[YMIHere]

Long post with point by point rebuttals.

 

Maybe this is why I don't feel overpowered. I opted for Backlash so my Death Field and DoTs are 30% weaker (does that include my channels aswell?), but I'm less likely to get stunlocked by scoundrels. Any idea where a spec like this sits on the dps scale you were talking about in your post? Just to weigh the loses to still get all the CC mentioned by the OP.

[Varicite]

Powertechs can pull. It's not the same for other melee. We absolutely MUST fight on their ground or just get pelted by attacks.

 

A powertech who opens with a pull is going to die as soon as they hit force sprint. The cooldown, even talented, is twice as long as force leap/jet charge, and it absolutely must be saved for when the Sorc gains room w/ the sprint if you want to keep them locked down.

 

It's arguable that a shield tech pyro can jump to them and pull them when necessary, but I don't get that luxury.

 

I have to run up to them the same as everyone else if I want a chance at winning. : )

 

The only melee that doesn't have a gap closer like this is an Operative/Scoundrel, and they have stealth to open on them.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Varicite

[Tumri]

I'll admit I'm not 100% sure of how to play a Powertech DPS optimally but as a Marauder if you LoS an rDPS for any reason other than escaping that basically means that you're a terrible Marauder. Marauders that slowly run up to a Sorcerer die. It's stupid to do so.

[biowareftw]

IF he plays a sorc and says we're OP then i can draw one conclusion..

 

he doesnt play a sorc

 

 

all he did was LIST talents..

 

its all his opinion, which is bad

 

sorcs are great in group pvp when UNFOCUSED

 

working as intended

 

 

qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

 

Most of us played sorc/sages in beta and reported the hybrid spec OP then. Why didn't we roll them in live? We were 100 percent sure the class would be nerfed to the ground for being so stupidly OP.

 

We underestimated the stupidity of the development team and the power of mass QQ by the most faceroll, overpopulated class I have ever seen in a game. The fact the hard counter to sage/sorc was nerfed within a week of the 50 bracket coming out is a joke.

 

The class is simply boring. It has none of the skill required of ranged classes in other games (like frost mage in WoW which wasn't really hard).

 

You don't time anything, you have way too much instant CC (all instant cast or automatic procs which is stupid), you are the only offhealer worth a damn (shielding other players is the best heal in the game and is instant, since there is no dispel mechanic which is also stupid), and the more you stack them in a warzone the more it screws over melee and gives your team a huge advantage.

 

If this game wants to be taken seriously at all the resolve system needs reworked and the hybrid spec needs to do the way of the dodo.

 

Otherwise all you are going to see is classes with ranged stuns (see 10-49 bracket) and most of those being sage/sorcs. LOL when all these 10-49 players hit 50...

 

It was stupid to put ranged stuns and no diminishing returns in the game in the first place. Giving that to the hardest class to focus fire, who is also the best offhealer, and has the second easiest playstyle?

 

Monumentally fail.

Edited February 13, 2012 by biowareftw

[Varicite]

I'll admit I'm not 100% sure of how to play a Powertech DPS optimally but as a Marauder if you LoS an rDPS for any reason other than escaping that basically means that you're a terrible Marauder. Marauders that slowly run up to a Sorcerer die. It's stupid to do so.

 

I agree that it's stupid to slowly run up to a Sorcerer that has you in their sights and is actively damaging you. At that point, you're already at the disadvantage and you should blow your gap closer.

 

But at the onset of a fight, you can pick how you want to open, and taking 5 seconds to scope out the situation and figure out how best to approach while taking minimal damage can seriously increase your effectiveness when dismantling the other team.

 

If you are a marauder, I assume our roles are somewhat similar. I find the healers and the tanks, and I destroy them so that my team's ranged can destroy the other team unhindered. I try to stay out of LoS of the enemy team's ranged while I do this, but most often I will have to run through both their melee and ranged line to find the juicy healers I want to kill. Yes, it involves dying a lot, but that's part of the role.

 

Of course it's not always that simple, but that's the general idea.

[YMIHere]

Powertechs can pull. It's not the same for other melee. We absolutely MUST fight on their ground or just get pelted by attacks.

 

You can spec for two 15 second leaps, and lower the cooldown of one to 12 seconds. If you're talking about getting knocked off the hutball ledge, it's an easy LoS point until you can leap. If you get knocked back again 5-8 seconds after you leap, congratulations you're now immune to all of his tricks that he dropped damage for.

[Tumri]

You can spec for two 15 second leaps, and lower the cooldown of one to 12 seconds. If you're talking about getting knocked off the hutball ledge, it's an easy LoS point until you can leap. If you get knocked back again 5-8 seconds after you leap, congratulations you're now immune to all of his tricks that he dropped damage for.

 

Our second leap is a 10 meter range attack in our "Rage" tree. Any Marauder that is using a Rage spec is severely gimped for anything but jumping into a group and using Smash for a big crit a few times per game. If you're going to be using every attack from every tree in your arguments I assume I can just start saying Sorcerers can spam heals on themselves and drop purple AoE healing circles on the ground while using Thundering Blast + Chain Lightning w/wrath procs for burst right?

[Beslley]

The issue is, if you move all the utility talents you basically cripple the sorc class.

Full lightning spec's damage is awful. Thundering blast damage is a JOKE when compared to an instant chain lightning proc, or a fast force lightning proc. Full madness dps doesn't compare to chain lighting spec damage-wise either.

 

I agree that the trees need retooled, but just moving utility talents isn't the answer. There needs to be a good hard look taken at the end-tier talents for the dps trees and make them actually worth taking, otherwise all you do is make dps sorcs impotent on the damage side.

 

The only thing that we can compete with is the hybrid spec, and THAT is the issue.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Beslley

[YMIHere]

Our second leap is a 10 meter range attack in our "Rage" tree. Any Marauder that is using a Rage spec is severely gimped for anything but jumping into a group and using Smash for a big crit a few times per game. If you're going to be using every attack from every tree in your arguments I assume I can just start saying Sorcerers can spam heals on themselves and drop purple AoE healing circles on the ground while using Thundering Blast + Chain Lightning w/wrath procs for burst right?

 

You're perfectly capable of speccing for leaps just like I am for CC.

[Tumri]

It really is that simple. They have TOO MUCH CC right now. So you move just TWO CC talents up the tree. This removes two of their ELEVEN utility moves. I honestly do not understand how people can argue that that much CC capability is balanced. It's like bringing a tranq. gun as your off-weapon to a paintball match. It's just stupid.

[Tumri]

You're perfectly capable of speccing for leaps just like I am for CC.

 

Hybrid Marauder builds do not work. At all. We use a stance system where each spec has all it's abilities dependent on one of three stances. Would you like for me to QQ about Wrath allowing hybrid specs that are powerful? My pure DPS class certainly doesn't have anything close to viable hybrid builds. Maybe they need to just have Wrath effect only lightning strike and crushing darkness? Perhaps then you'd have an argument for SW hybrids being just as viable.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri

[Varicite]

It really is that simple. They have TOO MUCH CC right now. So you move just TWO CC talents up the tree. This removes two of their ELEVEN utility moves. I honestly do not understand how people can argue that that much CC capability is balanced. It's like bringing a tranq. gun as your off-weapon to a paintball match. It's just stupid.

 

I'd say that's balanced if your main weapon is a slingshot while everyone else has Angels.

[biowareftw]

Our second leap is a 10 meter range attack in our "Rage" tree. Any Marauder that is using a Rage spec is severely gimped for anything but jumping into a group and using Smash for a big crit a few times per game. If you're going to be using every attack from every tree in your arguments I assume I can just start saying Sorcerers can spam heals on themselves and drop purple AoE healing circles on the ground while using Thundering Blast + Chain Lightning w/wrath procs for burst right?

 

Rage/Annihilation is so far and away worse then ann/watchman I have no idea why these sorc/sages would even mention it.

 

Oh yeah...it is cus they actually think their class is balanced and have no idea what it is like to be melee playing against all sorc/mercs.

 

FYI simpletons. The "second charge" isn't a charge. You end up like 2-3 yards from your target. When we ARE BORED and spec rage/focus? We use that thing mostly as part of our dps cycle.

 

Rage/Focus was good on servers before everyone had experitse, and could possibly be good on low pop realms with fresh 50's.

 

On a server where everyone is geared it is possibly the worst pvp spec we have. The ONLY reason to run it would be rated warzones for perma transcendence and that will be nerfed to the ground once people figure it out.

[justcallmetarzan]

Maybe this is why I don't feel overpowered. I opted for Backlash so my Death Field and DoTs are 30% weaker (does that include my channels aswell?), but I'm less likely to get stunlocked by scoundrels. Any idea where a spec like this sits on the dps scale you were talking about in your post? Just to weigh the loses to still get all the CC mentioned by the OP.

 

 

So far as I know, channeled abilities are not in fact periodic damage. Weird, I know. But in a way, it makes sense not to have that talent affect the channel because there is one in the 2nd tier that does.

 

As far as that spec, you're kind of gimping your dps a bit. I would change to this one for maximum CC potential. I know the point isn't necessarily to maximize dps, but you should still do pretty well there. Most of your damage will come from tab-dotting weakened mind and taking judicious advantage of procs.

Edited February 13, 2012 by justcallmetarzan

[TetraCleric]

The issue is, if you move all the utility talents you basically cripple the sorc class.

Full lightning spec's damage is awful. Thundering blast damage is a JOKE when compared to an instant chain lightning proc, or a fast force lightning proc. Full madness dps doesn't compare to chain lighting spec damage-wise either.

 

I agree that the trees need retooled, but just moving utility talents isn't the answer. There needs to be a good hard look taken at the end-tier talents for the dps trees and make them actually worth taking, otherwise all you do is make dps sorcs impotent on the damage side.

 

The only thing that we can compete with is the hybrid spec, and THAT is the issue.

 

lolololololololololololololol

[Beslley]

Did nobody read what I posted? It's fine if you want to move cc talents up trees, but at least admit that going up a full sorc dps tree is gimped as hell.

 

Seriously, go thundering blast for pvp and come back and talk. You won't even remotely compete with it. Even with all the cc, it's still terrible. Do you honestly think the only reason we go hybrid is to be op? It's seriously because doing a one tree specialization is AWFUL.